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Handholds

DonFromTX

DonFromTX

Well Known Member
One of the problems of starting a build late in life, then building slowly, is that when you are done you are too decrepit to get in and out of the darned thing. I have been working on things that require me to get in the cockpit, then back down to the engine. I am feeling so unsteady it worries me, feels like I need a handle or something. Anybody else out there who at 79 with total knee replacements and all the other problems of growing old, has added a handle somewhere on the outside or invented some other aid to entrance?
 
Twelve Handle

Don
I am 72 and I agree with you this is not the best aircraft design for the older people that makes light sport a good option.
A handle is something that I am trying to design that will stick out of the aircraft when on the ground and retract in when in flight.
The step is also something that I think could need improvement and may be even at the back of the wing.
I have had this problem in mind since I first got into the 12 at Oshkosh at the age of 68

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Wing Walk Area this is my post # 1 Wing walk area

The wing walk seams a little narrow.
Has anyone hand anyone step off and dent the area next to the walk.

Adding one more nose rib next to the walk before I close up the top of the wing should help.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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This is from Scott post # 4 On wing walk area

Because of the cockpit configuration of the RV-12, the typical entry / exit process used by most people involves one foot on the step, then one foot on the wing walk, then the first foot into the cockpit.

There is no climbing up onto and standing on the wing with both feet as in many other aircraft, so the area on the wing doesn't need to be very big.



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I did not respond to Scotts post at the time, however this does not seem to be easy for people of age
In my view the handle is something that should be on the twelve.
I will post my design when I have made the choice of what I will use
 
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I have a good friend that turns 78 today and have the same concerns for him. I was thinking of installing a sturdy strap (e.g. nylon webbing) on the roll bar of my -7A slider to provide something to help him with ingress/egress and stability while on the wing.

I'd have to cut through some of the sika-flex between the roll bar and windshield but think it would be do-able. Certainly better than nothing.
 
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joedallas; This is from Scott post # 4 On wing walk area Because of the cockpit configuration of the RV-12 said:
There is no climbing up onto and standing on the wing with both feet as in many other aircraft, so the area on the wing doesn't need to be very big.

[/B]
Click to expand...

Good Grief, that may mean my career as a wing walker is over before it really got started!
14ybvc4.jpg
[/IMG]
 
joedallas said:
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This is from Scott post # 4 On wing walk area

Because of the cockpit configuration of the RV-12, the typical entry / exit process used by most people involves one foot on the step, then one foot on the wing walk, then the first foot into the cockpit.

There is no climbing up onto and standing on the wing with both feet as in many other aircraft, so the area on the wing doesn't need to be very big.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did not respond to Scotts post at the time, however this does not seem to be easy for people of age
In my view the handle is something that should be on the twelve.
I will post my design when I have made the choice of what I will use
Click to expand...
Well, the way I have always analyzed this is that the higher you go (such as standing with both feet on the wing walk)... The higher you are above any of the places that you have available for hand holds. And if you think about it, regardless of how you do it, you have to support your self with a single foot on the wing so why not skip planting both feet there and just move to the next step of landing a foot inside.




The method I posted was just one.
There are others that people use.

One of those for entering on the left side would be to back up to the wing leading edge (face fwd).
Right foot on the step... push up to sitting on the canopy side rail.
Left foot onto wing walk.
right foot into cockpit floor.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
The method I posted was just one.
There are others that people use.

One of those for entering on the left side would be to back up to the wing leading edge (face fwd).
Right foot on the step... push up to sitting on the canopy side rail.
Left foot onto wing walk.
right foot into cockpit floor.
Click to expand...

The issue is that their leg strength and balance is not sufficient to do the above method. They have to put both feet on the wing, get their back straightened up, catch a couple breaths, then proceed into the cockpit. Getting out is even more of an issue for my non-pilot friend. We'll do some tests and practice before flying to be sure he can do it on his own.
 
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Handle location

Scott
The statement you made is correct ( The higher you are above any of the places that you have available for hand holds )
This is the issue, moving the wing back in the design of the twelve helps the forward view at a trade off of rear entry of the wing like all aircraft, I am not saying this was a bad thing.

I am not trying to criticize the front entry, I am just trying to find a way for us older people with less led strength and balance issues to enjoy their twelve in their golden years.

I will add a handle at the back of the roll bar and a different step to try to make it a little easier to enter the twelve.
Standing on the wing with only one foot and opening the canopy is a little above my ability.

I am still considering moving the step to the back of the wing and extending the walk area to the flaperon.
I have already made changes to help with this, my canopy opens be a keyless entry remote, I added a wing rib at the rear spar to extend the walk area and I replaced the rear window with aluminum with a small window.

The twelve is a great little aircraft and will get better over the years

HP_05_29_15.jpg


Click on the canopy video link on the home page.

http://joesrv12.com/

My View
Joe Dallas









rvbuilder2002 said:
Well, the way I have always analyzed this is that the higher you go (such as standing with both feet on the wing walk)... The higher you are above any of the places that you have available for hand holds. And if you think about it, regardless of how you do it, you have to support your self with a single foot on the wing so why not skip planting both feet there and just move to the next step of landing a foot inside.




The method I posted was just one.
There are others that people use.

One of those for entering on the left side would be to back up to the wing leading edge (face fwd).
Right foot on the step... push up to sitting on the canopy side rail.
Left foot onto wing walk.
right foot into cockpit floor.
Click to expand...
 
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Now, for my ingress/egress story. I'm 78, and my wife is a few years my junior. We struggled for a reasonable solution for getting in and out of our new bird. Then, we came across an article that I think was written by Dick VanGrunsven himself. In fact, I even think there was a short video sowing how it is done. The pilot, and passenger procedures are mirror image actions. You walk up to your side of the airplane facing the fuselage at the forward wing root. With a hand on the canopy rail, and using your forward foot, step up on the step. Now merely step into the floor of the cockpit with your other foot, and stand up. No need to use the wing at all. Getting out is just a reverse procedure. The only tricky part is knowing exactly where the step is located, as you won't see it as you exit. You soon learn that it directly in line with the face of the instrument panel. It will take a few attempts, but it serves us very well now. Hope this helps.....Tom
 
Very interesting, I intend to have a get in and out party at the hangar using these suggestions. I don't think my knees and leg length will allow this one to happen, and most of all this would be done AFTER you crawl up on the wing to unlatch and lift the canopy. That seems to be the biggest obstacle, maybe a remote latch and lift like Joe has would be best.

todehnal said:
Now, for my ingress/egress story. I'm 78, and my wife is a few years my junior. We struggled for a reasonable solution for getting in and out of our new bird. Then, we came across an article that I think was written by Dick VanGrunsven himself. In fact, I even think there was a short video sowing how it is done. The pilot, and passenger procedures are mirror image actions. You walk up to your side of the airplane facing the fuselage at the forward wing root. With a hand on the canopy rail, and using your forward foot, step up on the step. Now merely step into the floor of the cockpit with your other foot, and stand up. No need to use the wing at all. Getting out is just a reverse procedure. The only tricky part is knowing exactly where the step is located, as you won't see it as you exit. You soon learn that it directly in line with the face of the instrument panel. It will take a few attempts, but it serves us very well now. Hope this helps.....Tom
Click to expand...
 
Don, another 12 pilot in my EAA chapter pointed out that you can reach the canopy latch when you stand at the back of the wing. I felt a little silly after trying it... considering the dozens of times I crawled hoisted myself up on the wing to do it.
 
DonFromTX said:
Very interesting, I intend to have a get in and out party at the hangar using these suggestions. I don't think my knees and leg length will allow this one to happen, and most of all this would be done AFTER you crawl up on the wing to unlatch and lift the canopy. That seems to be the biggest obstacle, maybe a remote latch and lift like Joe has would be best.
Click to expand...

Wow! I never thought about the canopy being latched while parked. As far as opening it, using the little lift tabs on the sides, makes opening the canopy quite easily. The only time my canopy is actually latched is when I am in it, and preparing for flight. Even overnighting when away, I just put the canopy cover on, over the unlatched canopy. Never had a problem operating this way........Tom
 
Mine latches itself when I close it; the latch flops around on its own. I plan to fix that when I replace the canopy this fall.
 
DaleB said:
Mine latches itself when I close it; the latch flops around on its own. I plan to fix that when I replace the canopy this fall.
Click to expand...
Yeah, mine too. I haven't found a way to fix it long term. Always seems to loosen up ...
 
KAI specifies squeezing the shaft of the handle to make it very slightly out of round so that it has some friction to stay where you put it.
 
todehnal said:
No need to use the wing at all. Getting out is just a reverse procedure. The only tricky part is knowing exactly where the step is located, as you won't see it as you exit. You soon learn that it directly in line with the face of the instrument panel. It will take a few attempts.
Click to expand...

Tell that to my wife... She missed step on exiting the 12 on April 20 this year. Been kinda a rough summer if you know what I mean.
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3347nfs.jpg

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2qa5kjl.jpg
 
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rvbuilder2002 said:
KAI specifies squeezing the shaft of the handle to make it very slightly out of round so that it has some friction to stay where you put it.
Click to expand...
Yep. Tried that on the existing canopy when I had the handle out a few months ago, I obviously didn't squeeze it enough.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
KAI specifies squeezing the shaft of the handle to make it very slightly out of round so that it has some friction to stay where you put it.
Click to expand...

Did that. Worked for a while then eventually loosened up again. Maybe needs more out of round than I did ...
 
Earlier I put an O ring on the shaft under the latch. Worked fine until I converted to the locking latch, need to do that again.
 
Only if you are tall. I am 5 ft 7 and tried that, I lack about 10 inches from being able to reach the latch.

DaleB said:
Don, another 12 pilot in my EAA chapter pointed out that you can reach the canopy latch when you stand at the back of the wing. I felt a little silly after trying it... considering the dozens of times I crawled hoisted myself up on the wing to do it.
Click to expand...
 
I have a fairly short inseam, but tried this and there is no way I could ever do that even when I was young and agile. I think it would take some long legs (at least a lot longer than mine) to make that giant step into the cockpit.
Back to the old drawing board I guess.

todehnal said:
Now, for my ingress/egress story. I'm 78, and my wife is a few years my junior. We struggled for a reasonable solution for getting in and out of our new bird. Then, we came across an article that I think was written by Dick VanGrunsven himself. In fact, I even think there was a short video sowing how it is done. The pilot, and passenger procedures are mirror image actions. You walk up to your side of the airplane facing the fuselage at the forward wing root. With a hand on the canopy rail, and using your forward foot, step up on the step. Now merely step into the floor of the cockpit with your other foot, and stand up. No need to use the wing at all. Getting out is just a reverse procedure. The only tricky part is knowing exactly where the step is located, as you won't see it as you exit. You soon learn that it directly in line with the face of the instrument panel. It will take a few attempts, but it serves us very well now. Hope this helps.....Tom
Click to expand...
 
short leg problem

Don

I have the same problem

I am 5'-10" and have a 29" inseam and can't reach the handle on the top, that's why I put a servo for the latch and still have not come up with a good answer on how to get into the aircraft with out a ladder.

Any good ideas are welcome

Joe Dallas



DonFromTX said:
I have a fairly short inseam, but tried this and there is no way I could ever do that even when I was young and agile. I think it would take some long legs (at least a lot longer than mine) to make that giant step into the cockpit.
Back to the old drawing board I guess.
Click to expand...
 
I intend to do more research and come up with a way, will keep you informed. Right now what seems likely is a "drawer pull" mounted on the roll bar structure. Perhaps one on the fiberglass portion of the canopy skirt would do it too, will try some ideas out. Maybe even a step half way up the current step arm.

joedallas said:
Don

I have the same problem

I am 5'-10" and have a 29" inseam and can't reach the handle on the top, that's why I put a servo for the latch and still have not come up with a good answer on how to get into the aircraft with out a ladder.

Any good ideas are welcome

Joe Dallas
Click to expand...
 
Experimenting some today, the really big problem is getting the darned canopy unlatched! Once it is open, many avenues open up to enter. Am dreaming of some sort of remote latch down on the side where it can be reached by short people. Would like to stay away from electric remote stuff if possible. Maybe even ignoring the main latch and adding a simple one down low on pilot side. Come on guys and gals, help me think of something!
 
Would this lightweight plastic stool work?

http://www.rubbermaid.com/en-US/shop-products/cleaning---utility/step-stools/step-stool

Stand on the stool to reach the latch. Lift the canopy, put the stool in the baggage compartment, and enter the plane the usual way.

At the end of the flight, set the stool on the wing or toss it onto the ground, then exit the plane the usual way. You can then stand on the stool to latch the canopy. If you need to leave the plane on the ramp, tie the stool to a tie-down chain so it doesn?t blow away.
 
Recesed cam locks

Don

I would leave the handle that vans has for flight and would make a cam lock on each side to lock down the canopy when left outside your hanger
The cam locks need to pull the canopy down tight to keep out the rain and lock the aircraft.
Some ideas

http://www.hendricksmfg.com/

http://www.hendricksmfg.com/movie/rightlatch.html

My View

Joe Dallas






DonFromTX said:
Experimenting some today, the really big problem is getting the darned canopy unlatched! Once it is open, many avenues open up to enter. Am dreaming of some sort of remote latch down on the side where it can be reached by short people. Would like to stay away from electric remote stuff if possible. Maybe even ignoring the main latch and adding a simple one down low on pilot side. Come on guys and gals, help me think of something!
Click to expand...
 
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DonFromTX said:
Experimenting some today, the really big problem is getting the darned canopy unlatched! Once it is open, many avenues open up to enter. Am dreaming of some sort of remote latch down on the side where it can be reached by short people. Would like to stay away from electric remote stuff if possible. Maybe even ignoring the main latch and adding a simple one down low on pilot side. Come on guys and gals, help me think of something!
Click to expand...

I use my hat. I didn't use to wear a baseball cap, but now my plane is "equipped" with a hat that typically stays on the left wing root. When I want to enter, I use it to hook the outside handle and get it out of the way to open the canopy. After that, I put it on shade my eyes when I go fly!
 
My Latch Solution

At 5'9", a benefit of a disability that requires me to use a forearm is that it reaches the darn latch from the ground at the boarding step. Not suggesting one should get hurt to use this method, but it works for me.
 
I have no idea if this is practical in RV-12, but instead od a hand hold, would a rope with knots that can be attached inside aircraft, and used as a hand hold to help get in and out by deploying it before enter or exit, but stow inside?
(In hospital beds it is used to allow patients to sit up on bed more easily. Search for "rope in hospital bed to help sit up").
 
I have no idea if this is practical in RV-12, but instead of a hand hold, would a rope with knots or even handles that can be attached inside aircraft, and used as a hand hold to help get in and out by deploying it before enter or exit, but stow inside?
(In hospital beds it is used to allow patients to sit up on bed more easily. Search for "rope in hospital bed to help sit up").
 
Todays experiments told me that the real problem is getting the canopy open. After that is done, getting in and out is pretty easy! I think it is either a desk type lock on the side, or see if the "hat trick" works for me.
 
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