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What?s my Mission?

6

66mustangfan

Member
Hey guys, this is my first post! I?ve been following VAF on and off for a couple years now. I thought it was finally time to get a login and get my feet wet. I thought I would kick this off by asking for your expert opinions on my thought process regarding my mission.
First off, my mission includes a completed plane? With that said, the RV10 is not an option right now at +130k to build considering my wife and I just bought a home (they are not cheap in SoCal- I could have had a nice 10 with the down payment), we just had our first child (daughter- 5 months), and my wife is now a stay at home mom. I guess that my daughter may be 5 or 6 when the project is completed and I beleive I may have another child within 3 years. I?m leaning towards a 7 with small jump seats in the cargo area (aft facing with leg cutouts in the tail cone separator). My Mission mostly includes vacation flights to visit family about 650 miles away and the occasional $100 burger run. I know that luggage will be an issue, but I think we can manage as relatives have a washer/dryer and there is a local Walmart ;). As stated, since the budget is of concern, the fuel burn of a 360 sounds appealing verses that of a 540. Do you guys see my dilemma? Am I going to regret the 7 and hate it as it will limit my mission?s needs? Will I want the 10 (yes, I?m sure?)? If I were to build the 10, the build time could be doubled strictly do to budget limitations. I was thinking I could sale the 7 when the kids were too big for the rear jump seat and upgrade at that time. Any input as to these concerns would be appreciated. I?m sure builders have kicked these thoughts around in the past.
Also, I know some of you guys may state that it is ?cheap and easy to buy a plane and fly now,? but this is not part of my mission. I WANT to build. I want the satisfaction of saying ?I built that? and I enjoy building things. It will also help me spread the costs of the project as I will not finance a ?toy.?
Currently, I?m in the dreaming stage (I don?t even have a PPL yet) and don?t plan on starting a project for a while. However, I still would like to get involved in the local EAA and check out some projects. Is there anyone in the Los Angeles, CA- Southbay area that would like to show off their project? This could easily push me past the dreaming stage.
Sorry for the long post, but there is a lot going through my head?
 
Your mission?

Mission?
You can't know that until you fly a year or so.
Get a Cessna or Piper, log a couple of hundred hours. Then you will know your mission. An older C182 is good for getting over your mountains to the east. ;)
Building an airplane is building. Not a mission. Your RV10 'build' can be stretched out till the kids leave college. A serviceable C182 can be bought for $40 to $50k
 
Do not even consider a two seat airplane with jump seats. Not at all practical.

I agree with Jay (although I always hate agreeing with him). You should get a pre-owned spam can for now until you are in a better position to build something like the -10.
 
Welcome to the Party! I would work on your PPL and get that out of the way, and then ask for a ride in the 10 and 7, might just want to order the 10 tail and get going!
 
Thanks for the input Pratt. I actually look forward to building, maybe more so than flying. I will wait to fly my own ?creation.? I consider the build as part of my aviation experience and WANT to build more than just buy an affordable Cessna. I understand why you say to fly and then figure it out, but I consider building as part of the journey that I?m looking forward to. Hope this makes sense. I know of other people that have built without their PPL also. Builders are a rare breed. Maybe us builders without PPLs are a ?rarer? breed:).
 
Mustangfan.....you have to break such a big project up with one bite at a time.
Building an airplane is a huge task. There will be a ton of questions that will come up along the way with some not having clear answers.

First off start by getting some ground school instruction, either self taught or through a school. Concurrently, get an instructor lined up and get log some time. You might not even like it (God forbid but it can happen). Don't let the dream cloud reality. If you find that you like it and can afford it (this sport isn't cheap) get your feet wet by joining your local EAA chapter and getting to know some builders. Visit their projects and ask if you can help out. If you like the build process and have the time, resources in $ and space, then by all means narrow your mission to choose a plane to build. I would not recommend a jumpseat in the baggage compartment of an RV7 for your kids.

I could go on and on but I think you get the point. I choose to build an RV because of the support network from the factory, forums such as this, the thousands of RV's built, and local RV builders. It becomes a way of life after a while and I have met lots of friends along the way.

Good luck
Jim
RV9A Phase 1
 
Bret, that is what I?m contemplating. But the price of admission is so scary high. A 70k RV7 sounds doable over 4 or 5 years. The 10 will be a hard push past the wife. It may be better to have a flying 10 when the kids are 10 versus a fly 7 when the kids are 5?
 
The -7 won't work for you.

I have a -9 and a year after completion my wife got pregnant. (Still trying to figure out how that happened.) Our son rode in the baggage compartment, in his car seat, until this year. At five he is to big, not to heavy. You will miss that window, if you start building now.

Jay gave you some great advice; buy a plane, get your PPL, and start building a -10 in there. If you buy a kit that someone gave up on, used engine, and scrounge parts, you can do it for less than $100K. Remember, a -7 can cost 80 or more, depending on what you put in it.
 
Jimbo, I understand that this isn?t something that I should just jump in. I have been fascinated with aviation all my life and wanted to be a pilot when I was a child. I took my first flight in a small aircraft when I was 15 and loved it (it would be the only flight until I turned 30). I might have made the move then to obtain a PPL, but I was young and didn?t have the influence of a family member or friend to give me the guidance I needed. The aviation dream sparked up again when my wife gave me a flight lesson for my 30th birthday. It was everything I expected. I have the books for flight training and have been studying them. I want to build as I love building things, and, yes, I do understand it is a very complicated undertaking. I feel that I am qualified for it as I have extensive mechanical abilities (was an auto mechanic for 5 years during my undergraduate education) and I have undertaken large projects before including building a 2400 sqft home myself and completing an extensive remodel on another home. In addition to these qualifications, my wife says I?m stubborn. I like to think of it as determined?
 
Another angle

I'd recommend Jay Pratt's strategy (get PPL, buy, and fly something first) with some other thoughts.

The lifestyle of new parenting: not simple to hold a 40 hour per week job, commute in SoCal, family time, and then try to add time to build a multi-year project. It can be done and other VAF members can comment. My observation is that many/most builders are retired/single/kid-less, and they still take years to complete their project. However, Doug Reeves, VAF leader, built with young kids.

My kids are almost all out of the nest. I average a couple of flights a week. 90% of the flights are solo, with an empty seat. I'd recommend a 2-seat RV and rent the 4 seat 182 or similar for those once or twice a year trips.

Not to be too negative, but the EAA chapter can also give you information about new taxes, insurance, 100LL fuel under threat in CA, airport threats/closures.

If you love flying, get in the air ASAP!

Carl
 
Congrats on wanting to build an RV! I will not try to sway you one way or another but will just say a couple of things. I was a busy flight instructor for 12 years starting in 1983, wow that seems like a long time ago now. There were lots of folks around that had a dream like yours and there is nothing wrong with that. The only thing that I noticed is that I do not know of a single one of them that ever made it all happen. Getting your PPL should be the easy part, if you start this week you should be done in 6 months easy. After this you should have have a good prospective on where things are going. One thing that I noticed was that almost every one I knew while I was teaching had a dream about what they were going to do with their PPL when they got it but it almost always changed. Very few ever put their family in a plane and went on vacation. In my local EAA chapter there are several folks that want to build a plane but never get started. Someone said that every journey starts with the first step. So take a step and start the journey and see where it takes you.
Welcome aboard!
 
welcome

Mike
Welcome to VAF and welcome to aviation. We have similar interests. I too spent a lot of time building, fixing or driving almost anything mechanical and also dreamed of a pilot license. My first ride was a Cessna on floats at age 5. It was a long wait.
I did the license thing first but always knew I would build. A ride in a friend's 7a and 6a was the proverbial $50k ride. So far the build has been fun.

That said, I'm going to offer some crazy advise and probably get flamed for it.
Do what your heart tells you is right. If you want to build, do it. The nice thing about Vans is they are popular and if your life changes, they sell. Make sure your wife is in agreement. Happy wife, happy life. Unhappy wife, we won't go there!
Find the local builders. Sit in or catch a ride in various models. Include the Mrs.
You can build cheap. Mid time engine, basic avionics, basic interior, etc.
The great thing about getting the PPL is you can rent a little 150 and putt around.
The bottom line is it's your roller coaster ride. Get in the car that makes you happiest. Your less likely to get off if you're enjoying the ride.
 
Guys, I want to thank you for the advice. I think that you are all right that a 7 will limit me in the future. I want my kids to be involved and only a 10 fully satisfies this quest. The price tag on the 7 just sounds much more attainable. It will probably be better, long term, that I remain patient and bite the bullet with the 10. Most of you have recommended that I obtain a PPL before pursuing the build. I am purposely avoiding this because once I start flying, I may not want to stop. This will slow my build dreams as it will take up time and drain funds that can be put towards the build. I have run the numbers on the 10 and think it can be build for under $110k with a used engine/prop and in basic VFR platform.
Charles, thanks for the perspective. I hope I will not be one of the people you describe as never making it happen. If I don?t get this started soon, I know the bug will be back. It always has throughout my life. I want to take the first step and that is why I am here on this forum. For now, I think attending the EAA meetings and checking out some projects will get me moving in the right direction. I?m still young, so there is plenty of time left to pursue this dream if it doesn?t get kicked in gear in the near future.
 
Also, not saying you, but, 9 out of 10 that start on their PPL do not finish and get their ticket. Just get that out of the way and make sure you are not one of 9.
 
Larry (Wirejock), out of all thoughtful responses that I have received, I think you truly understand me as a person. I KNOW I will build and fly, I just don?t know when. Sometimes I contemplate putting this dream off until retirement (and that is a long ways away), but it always comes back and more powerful everytime. Your words are truly inspirational and I believe you are right. I know it will be a long hard road, but that is what makes us stronger/ wiser as an individuals. I have learned that the joy isn?t at the finish line, it is in the journey.
 
I have a wife and two kids and RV-9a. The wife doesn't really like to fly much but she loves that I have the plane, gets me out of the house and makes me happy. I enjoy taking my 8 year old boy flying and now my 5 year old girl is going as well. It's kind of nice to have just one of them at a time with old daddy. We are all together as a family plenty and it makes the flying time kind of special with just one of them along. Also, I am a relatively low time VFR pilot (400 hours total) and I think it could be distracting and complicated to have the whole family aboard whining about where to go, what to do, are we there yet? To me, the idea of loading up a 4 or 6-seater with the whole family or a bunch of friends sounds like a great dream, but the reality is I like the simplicity of flying alone or with just one other. As they say, your mileage may vary...
 
I agree with the advice to get your ticket first. Don't wait. Look for a flying club to get you flying while you decide what to build, and build. I found a club that made it possible to fly at least once a month or so, while building my RV-7. Now that my situation has changed, I'm trying to put together a club or partnership for an RV-12.

Also - join your local EAA chapter! Once you have your certificate and get to know some other pilots in your area, you might find some like-minded people with similar goals. Spending well into six digits for a nice RV-10 might not be an option, but splitting that cost 2 or 3 or 4 ways might work. You get the idea. There are all kinds of possibilities, but there's no reason not to get trained and flying while you explore them. In fact there are lots of reasons to do it!
 
66mustangfan said:
Most of you have recommended that I obtain a PPL before pursuing the build. I am purposely avoiding this because once I start flying, I may not want to stop. This will slow my build dreams as it will take up time and drain funds that can be put towards the build.
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If I may, I'd like to reorient your thinking a bit. Do you feel like you're swimming upstream when it comes to getting your PPL? Everyone wants you to get it - except you. If you're serious, get it within the next 6 months. The reasons are over-whelming. It will not slow your building dreams up. You can't fly without a PPL. It will never be cheaper to get a PPL than now. The price difference of a PPL 5 or 10 years from now is money you could have spent building the RV you're dreaming of.

In terms of flying taking time away from building, well that's an excuse. Figure it'll take you 1,500 hours (conservatively as a first time builder) and figure you won't fly more than 100 hours per year. You can do the math. The time spent flying won't appreciably delay the completion of your project.

As for the cost of flying, it sure as heck ain't free and that goes for flying a spam can or an RV. But if you think of it as both fun and skill building, then it becomes an investment in you. The better you are as a pilot, the safer you and your family are going to be vacationing in that 10. There's no doubt in my mind that for a conscientious pilot, more hours = a better pilot. Granted there are some guys that seem to get the same 100 hours of experience over and over. Flying is an investment in your skills, so start building hours and experience now. I speak from experience, I wish I'd put the hang glider down sooner and started flying GA.

There are less expensive ways to fly. Join a club, get in a partnership (a 2 or 3 way partnership in a 6 should be very reasonable), heck, buy a Cherokee 140 and you can fly for a few years anyway with all of your family and baggage (I can make you a really good deal, too). Another possible way to approach it is assume the airplane is free. They almost are if you take care of them. If you buy a used one now, and sell in 5, 10 or 20 years, odds are you'll more or less break even, or lose a lot less than renting. I took some bucks out of my retirement fund for the 9A I'm flying now and plan to put all of those bucks back in when I sell it upon completion of the 9A I'm building. Don't over pay, if you're looking at doing this - and I believe it will work. Of course fuel, hanger rent and insurance are not free.

Get the PPL and fly as much as you can, lest your dream of flying withers away.

As for building, you suggested its complicated. Maybe but I will say it isn't real complicated, in my experience. There are a lot of different skill sets needed and I built a house and a bunch of other stuff before starting the plane. None of it really prepared me for the task. It isn't passion or a history of having build stuff that makes the difference between those who finish and those who don't, from what I've seen. Having passion and skills simply say you CAN build a plane, not that you actually will. It's persistence that builds a plane. You will hit rough spots - either with the build or in your personal life, or both. Do some digging around on the forum for threads about completions and I think you'll see the truth in this. If you're persistent, you'll finish the plane regardless of the skills you bring to the shop at the start.

So, step 1 - get the PPL. Step 2 Fly. Step 3 Fly some more. Step 4 start building the plane of your dreams (or just buy it - your call. Remember, in the long run airplanes are free).
 
Good advice..

..You've come to the right place for opinions. Here's mine: :)

I agree with Don and others who've suggested you get your PPL first. I've known several people with dreams of flying who never adjust to the realities of flying. Get your PPL. It will either motivate you more, or change your course, but either way, you will know.

As far as building, it's both totally awesome and totally sucky at times (a real roller coaster). For me, married, with a 2 yr old and one more on the way this July, the ups and downs are more caused by life/time than by the technical challenges, although those also exist. Don't let people tell you it can't be done. However, also don't let people tell you it'll be easy.

It all comes back to the PPL. See first if your wife, life and pocketbook can handle that, then move on down the road to the next adventure. Also, realize that when you're learning to fly, you'll also be learning what you like and dislike about plane characteristics, capabilities, avionics, etc. These will later guide you when deciding what plane to build, and how best to build it...
 
I believe somebody already mentioned building a 7 and renting on the rare occasions you need 4 seats, and I think this is usually the most sensible idea.

When a lot of us think of being a pilot, what comes to mind is those cross country trips with family, but in reality it will be a tiny percentage of your flying. Economically it usually makes much more sense to own a smaller plane and rent something larger when you need it. With the cost difference between a 7 and 10 you could make a lot of trips in a rented cirrus or skylane.

I fly a club skyhawk either alone or with my girlfriend 95% of the time. I keep current in a 182 at a local FBO for the rare occasions I want to take 4 people.

I think if you are realistic you will decide that you won't make enough long trips with the family to offset all the flying you will do alone or with 1 person. Like you said, life gets in the way. Also, don't get caught up thinking that flying will take away from build time. I fly 1-2 hours per week, which is more than most people, and have been able to get my instrument ticket as well while building. The time spent flying will be worth it when you have a shiny new airplane you feel confident flying.

I'll be the last to discourage you from getting started. Enjoy

Chris
 
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Cart before the horse

66mustangfan said:
Guys, I want to thank you for the advice. I think that you are all right that a 7 will limit me in the future. I want my kids to be involved and only a 10 fully satisfies this quest. The price tag on the 7 just sounds much more attainable. It will probably be better, long term, that I remain patient and bite the bullet with the 10. Most of you have recommended that I obtain a PPL before pursuing the build. I am purposely avoiding this because once I start flying, I may not want to stop. This will slow my build dreams as it will take up time and drain funds that can be put towards the build. I have run the numbers on the 10 and think it can be build for under $110k with a used engine/prop and in basic VFR platform.
Charles, thanks for the perspective. I hope I will not be one of the people you describe as never making it happen. If I don’t get this started soon, I know the bug will be back. It always has throughout my life. I want to take the first step and that is why I am here on this forum. For now, I think attending the EAA meetings and checking out some projects will get me moving in the right direction. I’m still young, so there is plenty of time left to pursue this dream if it doesn’t get kicked in gear in the near future.
Click to expand...

I love your online name. I restored a 67 Mustang convertible. If you can restore a 66 Stang you can build an RV. With that being said, hold on to your dreams but listen to the very good advise you have received here!

I have a friend that took 12 years to build his RV-8. He could give you a laundry list of the things that changed from ordering the tail kit to the first flight! Your age, your vision, your kids age, and priorities will all change.

I understand your desire to build but the PPL is simply more important right now! I started building the Doll at age forty nine, and have been flying her for nearly fourteen years now. At age 30....you have plenty of time! Besides, the PPL is just a license to learn! You will want to have built some experience and judgment before loading your family in a plane for a trip!

What you want to do is very doable. Keep the horse in front of the cart!
 
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I'm in Larry's camp as well. If your heart is energized more by the thought of building than flying right now, than by all means start building. If you have the finances and your wife is supportive, then build. I mean right now. If you finish your build and your heart tells you to fly, then take flight lessons. If you finish your build and your heart says that was a blast, but you aren't that interested in flying, then sell your build and build again. There is no cookie cutter approach to this. I think the question here is simple. What makes you come alive right now? Then go do it and don't worry about what others may think.

I don't have my PPL yet, but desperately want to build an airplane. I've had that desire for the past 30 years, but only now has that become a reality. My plan is to build and then take lessons in my own plane. How cool is that? I'd rather spend the money on my own plane than rent a spam can that I know I'll never fly again after I get my RV done. If life throws me a curve ball halfway through my build then I'll sell it and that's that. I'll walk away smiling and my heart will be good.
 
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66mustangfan said:
Charles, thanks for the perspective. I hope I will not be one of the people you describe as never making it happen. If I don?t get this started soon, I know the bug will be back.

I want to say again that the folks I knew with your dream did not make it "all" happen. Their dreams changed.

Most of them got their PPL and many went further getting their commercial, atp, multi, instrument, and more. The thing is that getting their license gave them some experience to know what they wanted to do next. Without this experience how will you know how you want to equip your plane? If you decide on a -7 for instance do you want a -7 or a -7A. How about trim? Manual or electric?
Most decided that due to cost or time not to build. That does not mean they did not fly and enjoy it.
Quite a lot of them are quite serious about their flying.
Good luck in your mission!
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I remember when my kids were growing up, I didnt have time to wipe my #*% let alone build an airplane. Being broke didnt help either.... With that said, I know you can do it if you really want to! Get the wife on board, she can make or break you!
 
MikeyDale said:
Get the wife on board, she can make or break you!
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This is the best advice in the thread. I'm generally fond of the saying, "I didn't marry my Mother." I love and respect my wife of 18 years, but have never asked for her permission for anything (I have seen guys call their spouse before going out to lunch:eek: ); discuss and receive her opinion on decisions, yes. This is a different deal entirely. With the time and dollars involved, I would have never thought of jumping in without her support of the endeavor.
 
PPL first

I was in exactly the same position as you, I love building things and always have a project or two on the go. I always wanted to fly and build my own plane. 3 years ago I started my PPL and got my Cert after 6 months and to be honest I didn't get to work on my current projects much during that time. The PPL is not just a quick process and you need to put the time into it.

3 years later I fly about twice a month learning all the time and building hours and I love it. I am still working on other projects and think that building a plane at this time will be just too time consuming as I now have yet another hobby, flying.

Maybe in a year or two I will start but I will have to drop one of my other hobbies to find the time and make that commitment. My original plan was to build a slow build but this will now probably be a quick build. If I wait anther 2-3 years it will be a very quick build as I will buy a finished RV that suits my mission which I'm still working on defining.

Start at the beginning and see where it takes you, you may start your PPL and not enjoy it and move in another direction. Me, flying is now in my blood and once I've finished rebuilding the two motorbikes I currently have in the workshop I'll have a plan, but that may change!

Good luck

Mark
 
Go for it - but not without caution

I totally get the fact that you really want to build. In my case, I didn't even care if I turned out not to be an aviator as long as I could build. I also knew it had to be a plane rather than a boat, kit car or a house. As others have said, it is easy to sell - with some losses. So I just started as a non-pilot and have done more than 6 years building my RV-9 (currently FWF) before beginning flight training just now.

I also understand your thinking on not taking your PPL right away. Again, that is how I have done it because I knew it would distract and take money from building. I also know pretty well from riding along with RV friends that I like flying. My first piece of advice therefore is join an EAA chapter, make yourself useful, get involved and make RV friends. You can do that straight away for nearly no money and the effort is self-rewarding. Those are the people you will actually fly with more than any others.

I had the advantage that my 2 kids were already almost independent and I didn't include them in the plan because of that. You are going to be slowed down by lack of money perhaps more than I was (I limit myself to ?5k-?6k per year - most years). On a long build of a big plane like a 10, that means you will almost inevitably run out of the scarcest resource in a build project - momentum. Therein lies a huge danger and that is where your RV friends can help out.

As regards your mission, one thing about kids is that they have lots of ideas other than the ones you give them. Another thing is that they remain kids only for the blink of an eye. For them, RVs will be normal. Pretty soon, they will begrudge the trips in the plane which will be 'boring' to them. Nothing but nothing will be as important to them as their 'friends' and excitement or gratitude to you won't make up for the separation. Wives too, even the sporty ones before children arrive, can have a radically altered risk perception when they become mothers and can develop an aversion where none existed before. It's just nature at work. Just do a search here on "divorce". I made those mistakes with boats and eventually sold out (the boat, not the marriage) when the dream of family boating didn't materialise. My bet is that by the time the RV-10 arrives, you will fly it mostly solo.

You have a better chance of engaging your family in flying sooner on a one-to-one basis in a side-by side-model and leave family flying for the budget airlines.

YMMV, as they say and I hope it does.
 
Loman said:
.... As regards your mission, one thing about kids is that they have lots of ideas other than the ones you give them. Another thing is that they remain kids only for the blink of an eye. For them, RVs will be normal. Pretty soon, they will begrudge the trips in the plane which will be 'boring' to them. Nothing but nothing will be as important to them as their 'friends' and excitement or gratitude to you won't make up for the separation. Wives too, even the sporty ones before children arrive, can have a radically altered risk perception when they become mothers and can develop an aversion where none existed before. It's just nature at work. Just do a search here on "divorce". I made those mistakes with boats and eventually sold out (the boat, not the marriage) when the dream of family boating didn't materialise. My bet is that by the time the RV-10 arrives, you will fly it mostly solo.

You have a better chance of engaging your family in flying sooner on a one-to-one basis in a side-by side-model and leave family flying for the budget airlines.
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+1

With 3 kids off the payroll, and the last about to graduate, I think you have excellently summarized family life, kid psychology, and flying (or likely similar adult hobbies). It seems to me that the more intensity you put into something like career or hobby the more apathy/resentment can grow in the rest of the family.

Trade-offs!

Carl
 
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I'm going to propose something slightly different...

Find yourself a good used Cherokee 140. They're pretty cheap right now and a great 1st plane that's easy and forgiving to learn to fly in, and get your PP-ASEL. Once you've gotten your PP-ASEL, then build your hotrod 2-seater RV dreamship and keep the Cherokee for trips with the family and use the RV for fun and trips with only one passenger. I'd even go so far as suggest choosing an RV-8 instead of a side by side since when you're flying solo, there's nothing better than sitting on the centerline of the plane.

I owned and flew a Cherokee for a decade and it's a great little airplane, a little slow on the long cross country flights but it sure beats the heck out of driving a car for long trips. Most of my flights (probably greater than 98%) were always solo or with a single passenger, and once I got bit by the RV bug I had to have one for myself so I sold the Cherokee and bought an already-flying RV-6. I often miss my old Cherokee and there have been times when I really could've used a 4-seater. If I could've afforded to have kept it and have an RV too, that would've been great, but not doable on my income at the present time.
 
Hey 66m******

I can remember when.... I was in the same boat. As a kid I went bonkers every time I saw older Mash era helicopter landiing and taking off from Crissy Field-SF. Knew then that flying was in my blood. Married my highschool sweetheart and was blessed with 3 sons very young in life. I stressed and strained to afford anything that would get me in the air.

Finially deciding family came first. I however got lucky as a senior captain during the "air mobil" military build-up era and was sent to helicopter flightschool (most enjoyable time of my life).

At the age of 70 (kids grown up & 1st wife in the ground) I've finially worked having my own aircraft to the top of the bucket list (having a ball building a -12).

I guess the lessons learned from "shoulda-woulda-coulda" is this---work as you can getting your pilots license and build some hours of experience. Work on keeping "wife happy" (trust me-if she be happy; you will be happy). By the time you build to some hours....you will know your "mission"!

If you wait until your kids can participate in the build process (maybe wify too); you will accomplish two things that will be worth all the gold in the world. A plane that will full fill your mission and a bonding with your family that....what can I say---"shoulda-woulda-coulda". My 2 cents!
 
OK guys, I thank you all for the great input. You guys have given me some perspectives and thoughts that I haven?t considered yet. I have noticed there are 2 different underlying opinions in most responses here: ?Get my PPL first? OR ?follow my heart and build now.? I have decided to take the middle road on this and start my build before my PPL, but make sure that the PPL is completed before the build is completed (this could give me 10 years?). Some have stated that I should just build the 2 seater because my family may not even be interested in flying with me while others have said build a 10 so the 2 seats are not a limiting factor in the future. I think I will go with a 10 and there won?t be any regrets later. We all agree that life takes turns and we do not know where we will be in 10 years. Although this is true, I don?t believe it should stop me from starting a project (it hasn?t stopped you guys). I can always sale an unfinished RV and not be hurt (financially) too bad if things don?t work out.

I buy and sale (build or fix) an investment property every 2-3 years. When my current investment property sells, I will invest in the PPL as I will be flush with cash at that time. Right now, with my funds tied up, buying a $4000 Emp (with some resale value) is more affordable (and conservative) than spending 9-12k on the PPL (easier to get the wife?s approval). I will start to look for a deal on some unfinished 10 parts (slow build). This will get me started, keep me on a budget, and then I can pace myself. I will also be attending EAA meetings, meeting some RV guys, and continuing my book studies for a PPL. These goals will push the heavy monetary investment out a little.

YES, I WILL KEEP THE WIFE HAPPY. She isn?t exactly thrilled about the idea of building an airplane, but she knows that I need to be building something or I will go crazy. She does think aviation is awesome and gave me the green light to get my PPL last year (I ?responsibly? turned it down because we were saving money for our next real-estate investment). The real estate project will need to be completed before the 10 parts arrive. It?s is getting a new kitchen right now and the bathrooms will be finished next. Then I can move into the garage?

Loman, you understand me.- ?I didn't even care if I turned out not to be an aviator as long as I could build. I also knew it had to be a plane rather than a boat, kit car or a house.?- I?ve been there, built those and they don?t have the same appeal that a plane has. I know a plane will be a new and fascinating project. One thing that many have advised me to do is buy a ?cheap? flying plane. I have no interest in this and I also have no interest in paying an A&P to maintain it. I love to tinker and only an experimental allows this.
 
Best wishes

One good thing, advice from experienced "strangers" shouldn't have any hidden agendas. Just straight up, this is what we think.

One other fact that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread - in the US you can purchase an experimental airplane (second owner or 12th owner, doesn't matter) and you can do all the maintenance and modifications yourself. The only A&P requirement is the annual inspection. So you can legally work on a purchased already flying experimental. I mention this in reference to your final sentences.

Best wishes!

Carl
 
Loman said:
As regards your mission, one thing about kids is that they have lots of ideas other than the ones you give them. Another thing is that they remain kids only for the blink of an eye. For them, RVs will be normal. Pretty soon, they will begrudge the trips in the plane which will be 'boring' to them. Nothing but nothing will be as important to them as their 'friends' and excitement or gratitude to you won't make up for the separation...
Click to expand...

I can relate, as I was one of those kids who grew up with a family airplane. Taylorcraft, Stinson, Tri Pacer and Mooney... By the time we were in the Mooney and I was getting to that age of taking lesons, MY initerest in airplanes shifted to cars, motorcycles and girls. Airplanes were "normal"... and boring in my teens. Took me a decade or more to come back around and get my ticket. After I did start flying, my mission changed a whole bunch from the initial plan. Don't confuse your fantasy with the reality.

Starting out building a 10 is quite the leap of faith, considering the financial investment and the fact that it's only good as a people mover (and many of those "people" you imagine moving may have zero interest.).
 
Know yourself. Michael wants aerobatics, finds cross country boring. Maybe I will too someday, but at only 2400 hrs flying I still find taking my wife, and often friends (son is grown and on his own), on a cross country trip to see Shakespeare or camp out at Yellowstone to be a lot of fun. For me, the -10 is the only plane I would want. I will say I am a bit surprised at how many people want to fly with us!
So if you want to build a -10, I say build a 10. Start with the tail kit. If you don't like the process, you learned a valuable lesson for not too much cost. But if you enjoy it, build on!
But, I will join the others: you need to also get your license, rent (join a club), and fly. This forum has a number of posts from dissappointed pilots who hoped to earn their license in their ten; or who only had 150 hours of experience; and, now that their plane is finished, find themselves uninsurable for any reasonable premiun (currently, and this changes all the time, if you have less than 200 hours time the insurance companies will not want you as a customer).
 
One good thing about a -10 project is that if you start one and something comes up and you cannot finish it and need to sell... that RV-10 projects seem to sell a little more quickly than two-seater RV projects.
 
Only Charles in SC has touched on this but it is one of the most important for me. That is, you don't know how to equip the plane without being in the left seat for a bunch of hours. How do you know what to put on the panel and where should stuff be mounted? There are some very important reasons why things are where they are! You will only be able to copy other panels that "look good" to you but have no idea why the switches are where they are. This is all tempered with experience. You need that experience! Get your PPL and go get some experience.

With that said, nothing wrong with starting a build while you are getting time. You won't have to make any critical decisions for a while, most of them being on the panel and FWF. Lots to do before getting to those. :)
 
Might as well jump in with more to consider; Sounds like you have a well stocked tool chest. However unless you have built aircraft before you will find the skillsaw and roto-hammer won't be of much use. I, too have built cars, trucks, boats, homes and commercial structures. None of those needed a dimple frame, 100 degree counter sink, Micro stop, #40 ream, pneumatic squeeze, (forget the air hammer you used to knock the ball joints out of the Mustang. They only look similar. Ask me how I know...) Assortment of, well things you probably don't have. Don't get me wrong, this is a worthwhile project in my opinion but when you use the cost estimator on Vans site it leaves out many of the essentials. And yes, before I get bombarded by EAA guys, much of this can be borrowed. But you wont. You will be on the 'Spruce site nightly with credit card in hand.....again, ask me how I know.....just know and expect that when you make the jump and a box of aluminum is on your workbench you will realize you dont have the specialty tools needed to properly assemble the kit.

OK, take a breath. (Me, not you:cool:) Just be realistic about the "extras". I've got to add this; I decided to do my own paint and I think I have spent more in latex gloves and paper shop towels then paint, but thats for another thread.
 
Here's the short version

Toobuilder said:
I can relate, as I was one of those kids who grew up with a family airplane. Taylorcraft, Stinson, Tri Pacer and Mooney... By the time we were in the Mooney and I was getting to that age of taking lesons, MY initerest in airplanes shifted to cars, motorcycles and girls. Airplanes were "normal"... and boring in my teens. Took me a decade or more to come back around and get my ticket.
Click to expand...

I could have summed up what I said in less words "don't project your dreams on your family - support them in their dreams and they will (eventually) respect yours"
 
Some points have been very well made here and I'll second a few of them...

1) until you fly, you really don't know if flying is for you. Once the initial excitement wears off, some folks find flying to be boring, or too rule-bound, and they just don't really enjoy it. You gotta try it in order to know for yourself.

2) until you fly for a while, you don't have ANY idea what kind of flying you actually enjoy - is it "go fast", is it "go low and slow", is it "yank and bank"? You just don't know until you've accumulated some different experiences. Until you know what you like to do in the air, you have no idea what kind of airplane you need.

3) fly NOW while you can. My brother gave me a wake up call a number of years ago when he said, "you know, you could lose your medical tomorrow - fly while you can, then consider those other things in life." I owned an airplane within two months of receiving that advice and acknowledge it to have been some of the best advice I've ever received.

4) Many older homebuilts can be purchased for not a lot of money. My current "flying" airplane cost little to purchase and costs little to operate. Over the years of owning it I have modified it to suit my needs, incrementally. That makes aviation a little more affordable. Oh, don't forget, you can find instructors who will give instruction in a homebuilt airplane - now you have the ability to work on your license without worrying about rental schedules and costs.

5) We have 3 kids. NEVER have I regretted having a 2-seat airplane. OFTEN I fly alone. Heck, often I NEED to fly alone in order to re-discover the solace that can only be had when at one with the sky.

6) We are building an airplane which can have 4 seats. I've built in the structure to support the rear seats, but until I can justify the need for extra seats, she's going to be a 2 seater with LOTS of cargo space!

7) By nature, some of us are builders and some of us are flyers. I find that I have to fly a bit in order to keep feeding my appetite to build. You may be different, but until you've flown a bit, you really won't know.

8) Happy Wife = Happy Life This is the only rule you have to follow when it comes to building and owning airplanes. My wife was anything but a natural aviator. Now she's looking forward to having our "project" airplane completed so we can have our own private airliner to travel in. I don't know how I got so lucky to find her, but I'm keeping that gal!

Good luck in following your dreams!
 
Airplanes are free!

66mustang

One poster said airplanes are free. He is right on.

Buying your first airplane will give you many rewards. Your private pilot license will not cost much, if you are an owner. Buy a good plane keep it a few years and when you sell you get your money back. 'Free airplane' :rolleyes:

There is not anything wrong with buying a Vans Kit and building it with no intention of ever flying it. I am sure that has been done several times. The building part is rewarding in it self.

I think most of the comments came from pilots. We have a passion for flying, building is secondary, at best. For some of us we had to build just to get an RV. My first RV6, I finished in 1996. Not many to buy back then, and I did not have the cash to buy anyway. It was one kit at a time, pay as you go. I sold a Cherokee Six to pay for the radios and engine.
I have completed over 40 Vans Kits. I like to build. Love to fly. We can only fly a few hours a day. You can build all day and night. Kinda fun way to spend time.

Paying rent, as you know in real estate business, is a good way to make someone else rich. Same thing going to a flight school and renting a Cessna for your PPL. Get that in your plane.

Please do not spend thousands to get your PPL. It is so unnecessary, unless you just got it to spend. Do the math, $25,000 to $55,000 buys you a good airplane these days, Piper, Cessna, Grumman. This a cheep pathway to experience to the aviation world. When the time comes to finish that RV 7,8,10, i.e. buy engine and avionics. Sell the spam can and go.

All the best!
Pratt
 
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66mustang,
We humans dream a lot, sometimes those dreams are not connected to reality. The point being this process of planning based on dreams or untested desires may be so much spinning of the wheels.

First step ought to be learning to fly - you may not like the discipline required to be safe. It's not for everyone. If the training experience lights your fire for real, you're in.

Building an airplane you can not fly might be a very unpleasant business - not to think of the expense.

Just my 2 cents worth...many guys in my initial training class quit...they were the victims of unrealistic dreams.
 
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Toobuilder said:
Starting out building a 10 is quite the leap of faith, considering the financial investment and the fact that it's only good as a people mover (and many of those "people" you imagine moving may have zero interest.).
Click to expand...

As a 10 builder and flyer, I take excpetion to this statement. Whether or not it's a leap of faith is a personal decision based upon personal motivators. None of us will answer the question the same way.

When I started the build, I had two kids at home, now we are almost empty nesters. I have no personal interest to yank and back, but I can carry plenty of luggage. I'm also looking at ferrying three large dogs for Pilot N Paws. But this was my personal choice and I'm happy with it.

Now what I will share as a caveat, especially to somebody that isn't legal to be a PIC. A four place, high performance aircraft is going to cost more to insure for a low time pilot. Almost impossible to insure for a student pilot.

I highly recommend talking to Jenny Estes or any other aviation insurance agent to set the appropriate expections. My agent shared with me that one of her clients attempting to insure a RV-10 was given a $10k quote from one of the underwriters. Some underwriters are starting to require 15-20 hours of RV-10 dual too for low time pilots. My intent is not to scare anyone out of building a RV-10, just make sure you understand everything up front. Underwriters change rates and requirements all the time, which is why your insurance agent needs to be your best friend if you are low time. They can help you get through the insurance minefield.

bob
 
rleffler said:
...As a 10 builder and flyer, I take excpetion to this statement...
Click to expand...

OK, point taken.... Replace "people mover" in my post with "minivan". ;)

In all seriousness, I don't think anyone is trying to talk the OP into/out of a particular ship. Just want to illustrate that the "mission" he envisions at this point is likely to be way off the mark. I know mine was.

OTOH, if he does change his mind about the -10, he should be able to flip it without any real loss (as long as the quality is there).
 
rleffler said:
When I started the build, I had two kids at home, now we are almost empty nesters. I have no personal interest to yank and back, but I can carry plenty of luggage. I'm also looking at ferrying three large dogs for Pilot N Paws. But this was my personal choice and I'm happy with it.
Click to expand...
Everyone’s opinion is just that – their own. I fall in line with Bob’s take above. Perhaps due to flying too much formation (which wasn't all that much) in the military, the thought of formation flight when uncle sam isn’t mandating it, makes me want to stick a fork in my eye. Acro, fun, but really doesn’t do much for me. I LOVE the handling of my 7A, but when it comes to my build, the -10 was it. Even without any children (although we don’t like leaving our dog behind), the 7A is tight. CC, functional trips is a big part of my mission, and I really wanted the space.

Jay’s post is awesome, BTW. It just shows how different folks are – some are very cautious, some fly by the seat of their pants (no pun intended). Taking some of the objective things off the table (making 12k/year, being 60k in debt, etc), things are about risk and reward. You can reason all day long why something is foolhardy and doesn’t make sense, or you can follow your heart and see where it leads…

Having said all that, if I could build and fly my -10 and keep my 7A as well, I would do it in a heart beat!
 
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WOW! I can’t believe this thread is still going. I thank you guys for all the thought and comments.

"Please do not spend thousands to get your PPL. It is so unnecessary, unless you just got it to spend. Do the math, $25,000 to $55,000 buys you a good airplane these days, Piper, Cessna, Grumman. This a cheep pathway to experience to the aviation world. When the time comes to finish that RV 7,8,10, i.e. buy engine and avionics. Sell the spam can and go."

I have to ask Pratt:

As budget is an issue (right now) how do you suppose I not spend “thousands” to obtain a PPL. I’ve run the math in different ways- rent, buy, partnership/club and they all come out in the “thousands.” I find that if you own, the hourly costs will be lower but the fixed costs can be very high. If you rent, hourly cost go up, fixed costs go down…

Own- (C150 or C172) 100 hours =
fuel $3000 (mogas would be about $2000)
Fixed costs= $5,200 ($1200 tie down/year OR $5000 hanger/year, $2500 insurance, $2500 maint/annual).
Maint/OH Budget= $1500 ($15/hr)
Total cost to Own= $10,700/yr
(I will not count the price of the plane because most should be recovered when/if it is sold)

Rent- (C150) 100 hours=
$120/hr wet
Total to rent= $12,000/yr

A partnership may be the most cost effective way to achieve this. However, what if I want to get out, move locations, or upgrade. This could be a headache.

These numbers are all in the thousands and they are very comparable- not a much cheaper way to obtain the PPL. I understand it gets cheaper to own the more you fly, but we were talking about getting a PPL here and building a few flying hours.

The above prices are just the price of the plane (at 100 hours). I still have instruction at $55-60/hr (I’m in Los Angeles) and tests/ equipment costs. Most schools around here estimate the total cost at $9-13k plane included (depending on hours needed and instruction- usually 40 to 60 hours). Either way I’m in the “thousands.” Please help me understand how not to spend thousands here. I’m very interested in this.

Thanks,
mike
 
Retail prices

Mustang66

Another poster said, "you are investing in your self" when you are building time, learning to fly. We are all dangerous until we get a few hundred hours. I have heard that more kill themselves right around 500 hours, because they really get bullet proof, over confident. :rolleyes:

When I started flying in my mid thirties,, in 1983. I bought a C172.( I only rented the first 20 hours. 150s.) I tied it on the grass at my local airport. Made friends with the local mechanic. Did All my own work on the plane, with his blessing and signature in the logs. Paid cash. Never had insurance. Used car gas.
Found a retired guy to give me lessons, and another friend with a license to ride with me while I practiced for the test. My instructor did not charge me.
I had to pay the examiner for the flight test. I studied the written for the price of the books. Do not remember how or if the written cost anything?

Four years ago girlfriend Carol got her license, in much the same manner.
I had a Cessna 140 here in my hanger that I was playing with. She found two instructors here at Hicks airport that were willing to fly with her. She used car gas, got the written done for free. The state of Texas loans out King Tapes on the written.
She had to hire an instructor for the last 7-10 hours to prepare for the flight test. One of the free guys had to go to college, and the other guy started rebuilding a Taylor Craft and just got too busy. She had to pay the flight examiner for his time. The flight test guy owners the T Craft

Now Carol is flying a free C172. I have it hangared and the owner hasn't
Flown it in years, and is not making any moves to sell. I have another guy doing the annuals for flight time. Yes it cost us parts every so often, but it has not been bad considering we did not have to pay for it. I could charge $300 per month for that hanger spot!,,, but I think it is a good trade off. The guy doing the annuals also works here helping on fiberglass RV parts, and makes extra money on the side. His main job is a large exp jet he built for a bazziolionair.
As you get to know more people in aviation, the more doors will open for you. There are several airplanes here on Hicks that are begging for attention. If I lose the 172, I am pretty sure I could scare up something for Carol to fly.
I have a Super Cub 180 hp that I built 10 years ago. She could fly that, but I have been reluctant to let her do it since it is not insured. I am not an instructor, or an A&P. Bet I have saved the price of several airplanes by not paying insurance. And paying cash, so no banks involved. I had a V tail Bonanza and was based on the French side of St Martin for 7 years. Every flight was over water and international. Who would insure that? I put over 800 hours on that airplane.

Buying and owning a small plane is a window into a whole new world. If you play it right, it will give you more returnes than you could know.
When you Choose a RV, you make all of us is a winner. Un fortunately the RV is not much of a trainer. That said several have learned to fly in them.

You can get it done on a budget, it just takes a little creativity.

Good luck to you what ever you decide.

Pratt out
 
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Jay Pratt for President! :D:D:D Or at least head of the FAA! I can personally vouch for his character.

The active pilot community that gathers at RV Central with Jay, 52F (Northwest Regional, TX) with dr (Doug Reeves) at the Van Cave, my home airport, and other airports I've visited is a special group, and in a way, maybe we are fighting together for survival.

It will take some visiting and listening, but Jay's methods are valid. I'm happy to safety pilot for IFR practice approaches, and my payment is the fun of flying another hour, another day!

Carl
 
66mustangfan said:
The above prices are just the price of the plane (at 100 hours). I still have instruction at $55-60/hr (I?m in Los Angeles) and tests/ equipment costs. Most schools around here estimate the total cost at $9-13k plane included (depending on hours needed and instruction- usually 40 to 60 hours). Either way I?m in the ?thousands.? Please help me understand how not to spend thousands here. I?m very interested in this.

Thanks,
mike
Click to expand...
I have a one word answer that required me to type more than one word.

The answer to your predicament . . .
MOVE!! :D
 
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