GTN 650 Aviation out config software Bug?

I am using the GTN650 to cross feed a flightplan via RS232 into an Aera 550.
I am now adding a 406MHZ ELT. I also want to send the GPS coordinates to the ELT from the GTN650.

I was told by the avionics shop that the GTN650 has a software bug which will corrupt the data if I select to send Aviation out on a second RS232 channel.

Has this bug been corrected?
Does anyone know the software version which corrects this, or if it is even out yet?

I will also try to find this info on the Garmin site.

jeffsvan said:

I am using the GTN650 to cross feed a flightplan via RS232 into an Aera 550.
I am now adding a 406MHZ ELT. I also want to send the GPS coordinates to the ELT from the GTN650.

I was told by the avionics shop that the GTN650 has a software bug which will corrupt the data if I select to send Aviation out on a second RS232 channel.

Has this bug been corrected?
Does anyone know the software version which corrects this, or if it is even out yet?

I will also try to find this info on the Garmin site.

Click to expand...

Hello Jeff,

We don't believe there is any data corruption, but yes, it is a limitation of GTN V2.00 software that only one serial port may provide Aviation Out.

This limitation no longer exists in GTN V3.00 software. This software hasn't quite made it through the certification process, but should be available in a few weeks to upgrade your GTN650.

While it is generally not considered good practice to connect multiple devices to an RS-232 output, you might get by with connecting these two devices for a short time until the new software is available.

Thanks,
Steve

Steve,
I quickly looked on Garmins website and couldnt find that info.

Is there a spot on the website that lists software revisions and how they have evolved?

Can the owner update the software, or does the avionics shop need to do this?

thanks again for your earlier help. with it, and the tools I purchased from Stein I was able to get everything installed/working on my plane.

Usually you need to go to a Garmin dealer to get software updates.

Garmin update?

Do we have a date for such an update? Many of us have our orders / panels in the work and it'll be shame to realize that I need to pull my GPS and send it back to a dealer to update the software?

How come Garmin never thought of enabling users to update the software themselves?

Airzen said:

Do we have a date for such an update? Many of us have our orders / panels in the work and it'll be shame to realize that I need to pull my GPS and send it back to a dealer to update the software?

How come Garmin never thought of enabling users to update the software themselves?

Click to expand...

Your dealer should be able to ensure your serial number unit is up to date...as far as letting end users do the update, it's a double edged sword. While a good share of homebuilders possess the skills to perform software updates on many different things, the reality is that an equal share of owners are just the opposite - and when taking everything into consideration (for example, many hours of phone calls it can take telling someone exactly which button to push in exact order just to have it fudged up, verses just sending it in for a quick update where we know it was done right; I know which one I'd recommend almost universally) it just makes more sense to have them dealer updated. It's not a flame to anyone at all, just realize that for every one of you who is willing and skilled enough to do it successfully, there is likely another who isn't. Since it's a certified box that your life can literally depend on, it's pretty important to me that the entire process is done correctly - whether it be user performed or dealer performed.

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

PS, I'm in a meloncholy mood because I just spent 25 minutes on the phone literally going detailed step by step in absolute minutia helping someone figure out how to put a set of terminal dies into a crimper.....and that is simple compared to a software update!

Sooooo, lets say I need to update the GTN 750

I call UPS. "How much to ship this package? 3 day service so I can get it back in about a week to 10 days. $50. Ok. Oh, insure it for $14,000. Another $50. Double all that which is what it will cost me when it gets shipped back. I'm just guessing that a Garmin software or hardware update will run a couple hundred bucks plus downtime. My Dynon software updates are free and instant. Garmin should rethink update options. They've come a long way. Just keep comin...
I should call a local shop and see what it would cost to have updates done locally if that is possible.

You really cannot expect good service when dealing with a monopoly. That being said, this software release fixes a real bug, and so should be covered under warantee. Schedule an appointment with the nearest Garmin dealer. Your costs should be limited to a few hours and gas to get there.

I dont see how much more difficult to update the software would be compared to updating the GPS databases which we all can do ?

So if I look at the screen which gives all my software revision #'s
is there anywhere I can look on Garmins website that shows which versions are the most current so I can see what I have?

g3xpert said:

Hello Jeff,

This limitation no longer exists in GTN V3.00 software. This software hasn't quite made it through the certification process, but should be available in a few weeks to upgrade your GTN650.
Thanks,
Steve

Click to expand...

How can I get information on this update, what changes were made to it, its true release date...etc.. ?

SteinAir said:

...when taking everything into consideration (for example, many hours of phone calls it can take telling someone exactly which button to push in exact order just to have it fudged up, verses just sending it in for a quick update where we know it was done right; I know which one I'd recommend almost universally) it just makes more sense to have them dealer updated. ...Since it's a certified box that your life can literally depend on, it's pretty important to me that the entire process is done correctly - whether it be user performed or dealer performed.

Click to expand...

For a change, I disagree with Stein's view here (but he's certainly more "in the know" than I or most of us here on these things ).

My life may depend *just* as much on the NON-certified Dynon Skyview, yet I can upload new firmware to that lickety-split, with no problem. It's simple and quick (relatively).

So certified vs. non-certified is, I think, a bit of a red herring.

I'm not really happy, but not *too* upset, that I'll have to spend a hundred bucks locally to have my 430W upgraded for ADS-B stuff in the next month or so, rather than being able to do it myself. But I'm lucky, I don't have to remove it and ship it somewhere...just take it out and walk over to the avionics shop 100 yards away.

But honestly...there's no good reason for owners not to be able to do their own firmware updates. Not in 2012.

If you've made it so hard to do only a tech can do it, you need to rethink your design.

Question for G3 Expert

Hi Steve (Garmin G3 Expert),

Do we have an estimate of when this firmware upgrade will be available? Garmin's website says fourth qtr of 2012. Is there a revised date?

It'll help plan out next few steps.

Thanks,
Ashish

Having just installed my 650 tray into my panel, I am more than a little disappointed that Garmin locks users out of upgrading their software. I'm a ways from needing to do that, but come on Garmin...assuming all your customers are not intelligent enough to handle a computer themselves....after they've built and flown an airplane?

I can certainly see Stein's point and have met my share of pilots who should never attempt to put a set of dies in a crimper, but the rest of us who pay $10k for a radio shouldn't be treated like them. Put detailed instruction on your website and treat your customers like adults. The 900lb gorilla has come a LONG ways...far enough that I have a panel full of Garmin, but there apparently is still a bit of the old Garmin left to shed. If I can manage to wire up a G3X system by reading the manual...I should be able to update the software without too much bother. If not, your engineers need to fix it.

Airzen said:

Hi Steve (Garmin G3 Expert),

Do we have an estimate of when this firmware upgrade will be available? Garmin's website says fourth qtr of 2012. Is there a revised date?

It'll help plan out next few steps.

Thanks,
Ashish

Click to expand...

Jeff and Ashish,

We apologize that more detailed information is not available to help you in your planning, but the best information we have has already been shared in our previous post.

If you like, you can go here and sign up for Garmin Service Alerts. You will receive notification when the service bulletin providing the software changes and update instructions are provided to our dealers.

We suspect most everyone realizes this, but there seems to be some confusion communicated above. Just to be clear, Garmin provides free customer installed software updates for all our non-certified products including G3X and our portable units.

Without going into too much detail, the configuration control requirements imposed by the regulatory authorities for software and configuration data used in certified aircraft and avionics systems is extremely strict in comparison to the freedoms we enjoy with experimental aircraft and non-certified avionics products.

FAA Order 8110.49, Software Approval Guidelines devotes chapter 5 to the approval process which must be followed before software and configuration data may be field loaded to certified products - either in the aircraft or in a repair shop.

Many of us here at Garmin build, fly, and maintain experimental aircraft and understand the competency of the vast majority of experimental aircraft owners to perform their own software loading and would consider it an equivalent level of safety to have software loaded to certified systems in experimental aircraft by these individuals. Unfortunately, those aren't the guidelines we are expected to operate within today and our dealers like Stein follow procedures defined in service bulletins and help us comply with those field loading requirements.

Thanks for your understanding,
Steve

My view is that if we can download and install GPS map, airport info, terrain, and other databases into the products, then whats the big deal about the software. If it says on the screen "software successfully loaded" whats the big deal?

I updated both my Aera and GDL39 units with the latest software and configured the menus so they can talk to each other.



Am I looking in the wrong places on Garmins website? but I cannot find good info on current version of software and how they differ from older revisions? What the new GTN 3.00 will offer etc...

jeffsvan said:

My view is that if we can download and install GPS map, airport info, terrain, and other databases into the products, then whats the big deal about the software. If it says on the screen "software successfully loaded" whats the big deal?

Click to expand...

I believe the point Steve was making was that he personally agrees with you. However, the process defined by the FAA restricts what they can do with certified software updates.

jeffsvan said:

Am I looking in the wrong places on Garmins website? but I cannot find good info on current version of software and how they differ from older revisions? What the new GTN 3.00 will offer etc...

Click to expand...

I asked the dealer I purchased miine from, who in turn contacted Garmin, the following was the response from Garmin:

This software is going to be uploaded in the field by the dealers. Since this is certified software for certified units it most likely be released to the experimental community for obvious reasons. In a certified aircraft there will have to be a repair station sign off for the update. For the experimental customers they really should bring the unit to a dealer for the update but I am sure the software will get out there somehow where experimental customers will bypass the dealers.

I don?t have a specific list of what all is going to be in the 3.00 update but suffice it to say it is extensive. There are many features being added and many issues being corrected.

While I understand that Garmin's hands are tied in this regard, it does expose the experimental user to the high cost of shipping units around the country as well as the risk that their unit may get lost or damaged in the process. Shipping insurance is expensive and it is questionable as to if it will ever pay off in the event of an issue. There is also a significant amount of downtime associated with this process.

I know that some have the option of taking their unit to a local avionics shop but the experiences with that varies from easy and free to difficult and expensive depending on who you talk to.

I am sure that if Garmin could legally allow us to update our own firmware on the certified boxes they would...after all, they have no problem with letting us do it to the non-certified stuff.

g3xpert said:

Without going into too much detail, the configuration control requirements imposed by the regulatory authorities for software and configuration data used in certified aircraft and avionics systems is extremely strict in comparison to the freedoms we enjoy with experimental aircraft and non-certified avionics products.

FAA Order 8110.49, Software Approval Guidelines devotes chapter 5 to the approval process which must be followed before software and configuration data may be field loaded to certified products - either in the aircraft or in a repair shop.

Click to expand...

I don't see, at first read-through, anything in Chs. 5 or 6 that would prevent a vendor from providing a means for FLS to be FL'd by an owner.

The key part is here:


Now, I can see where there might be unreasonable additional costs if a vendor had to get a mod to their original TSO certification paperwork which would allow for owner-done field loads, but I don't see anything offhand which would prevent such from happening.

In fact, we have an example of such a thing with Dynon...their transponder is TSO'd, and yet (by virtue of the EFIS's firmware upgrade design and implementation), the transponder's firmware can be updated by the owner.

So it most certainly IS doable...unless I'm missing something here (but my facility with government documents is pretty good ).

Flying Scotsman said:

I don't see, at first read-through, anything in Chs. 5 or 6 that would prevent a vendor from providing a means for FLS to be FL'd by an owner.

The key part is here:

The approved FLS may be installed on the aircraft via Service Bulletin, Engineering Change Request, or other FAA-approved means. The approved means vary, depending on the method for granting approval. Whether the FLS approval is through TC, ATC, STC, ASTC, TSO authorization, or some other approval process, the document used to install the FLS should be approved by the certification authority and should specify the following elements:
a. The aircraft and hardware applicability and inter-mixability allowances for redundant systems software loading.
b. Verification procedures to assure that the software was correctly loaded into an approved and compatible target computer and memory devices.
c. Any post-load verification and/or test procedures required to show compliance to the guidelines specified in this chapter.
d. Actions to be taken in the event of an unsuccessful load (for example, prohibit dispatch of the aircraft).
e. Approved loading procedure or reference to approved loading procedure.
f. Maintenance record entry procedures required to maintain configuration control.
g. Reference to Aircraft Flight Manual, Aircraft Flight Manual Supplement, or Operator?s Manual, as appropriate.​

Now, I can see where there might be unreasonable additional costs if a vendor had to get a mod to their original TSO certification paperwork which would allow for owner-done field loads, but I don't see anything offhand which would prevent such from happening.

In fact, we have an example of such a thing with Dynon...their transponder is TSO'd, and yet (by virtue of the EFIS's firmware upgrade design and implementation), the transponder's firmware can be updated by the owner.

So it most certainly IS doable...unless I'm missing something here (but my facility with government documents is pretty good ).

Click to expand...

Steve:

It would be nice if the FAA would allow Garmin to let us do it but the FAA does not.

Go read Part 43, Appendix A, Paragraph C - Preventive Maintenance.

Here is a link to a good article but it is not an FAA website.

Here is a direct link the FAA web site that has 43, Appendix A. Scroll down to Paragraph C.

I agree with you that most homebuilders could do it BUT the FAA has rules for certificated aircraft. IF Garmin would allow EXPERIMENTAL aircraft to do their own, they could end up with a legal problem when someone does it to a Type Certificated airplane.

I personally like the way you are thinking but the Lawyers will prevent common sense software upgrade happening on a product that could be found in a type certificated aircraft.

So how is the Dynon transponder (TSO'd as it must be) allowed to be updated via a firmware update/upload using the EFIS?

Seems to me the only difference here is that Garmin sells primarily to certificated markets, and in that case, there may have been some constraints to owner updates of firmware in the original STC or other paperwork. Fair enough, but this is the point of experimental stuff...so that I don't *have* to go to an FAA repair station for everything.

Seems to me there's no reason why Garmin couldn't say "here's how to upload new firmware to your unit. N.B.: Installations in certificated aircraft *require* the upload to be done by an FAA authorized repair station, along with appropriate logbook endorsements and documentation."

Closest part 43 comes is this, which references databases, not software/firmware (which I couldn't even find in part 43):


I believe that this is more than likely a liability/litigation and profit issue than a regulatory one. Given the willingness that some people have to use older on-board databases and other such "corner cutting" on their avionics, it's a virtual certainty that some significant percentage of owners of certificated planes will do their own firmware updates regardless of whether the FAA says its legal or not, thus opening Garmin to liability issues when they mess it up (which would be pretty hard to do, but you know the saying about things being foolproof), AND it would take some $$$ out of the repair stations which charge for doing what any high-school kid with a laptop could do.

But I'd like an answer from someone on the question at the top of this post. If Dynon (and presumably other EFIS manufacturers) are using a TSO'd XPDR and allow for the XPDR firmware to be uploaded by a user through the EFIS interface (or otherwise), how is that different than a TSO'd GPS box being updated by a user, *legally*?

Flying Scotsman said:

So how is the Dynon transponder (TSO'd as it must be) allowed to be updated via a firmware update/upload using the EFIS??

Click to expand...

Are you sure Dynon allows for their re-labled Trig unit to be updated in the manner you suggest? I am not certain if they do or not but I have not seen any such thing yet from them. Granted I don't keep up with them much anymore so it is possible they do like you suggest.

Brantel said:

Are you sure Dynon allows for their re-labled Trig unit to be updated in the manner you suggest? I am not certain if they do or not but I have not seen any such thing yet from them. Granted I don't keep up with them much anymore so it is possible they do like you suggest.

Click to expand...

"This new SkyView module will be available Fall, 2012, along with firmware updates to the SkyView system and the SV-XPNDR-261/262 transponder modules."

I recall a discussion on their support forum a while back about updates, and that while they would be through the normal SV upload process, the actual code has to be certified, so that process takes longer. However, I believe the firmware update was to be accomplished as part of a SV software release using the USB port as always. I'll do a search to find it to confirm that.

The FAA also requires that certified equipment be installed by a certified shop, but we as experimental guys can order one by mail. Garmin has no problem selling to us, though someone could buy saying they are experimental yet install it in a certified plane...right? What's the difference between that and software updates? Certified are not allowed to do their own. That doesn't apply to us.

I've read through chapter 5 of the FAA order a couple of times now and while it's all in legalese, I can't find anything preventing the experimental guy who is allowed to install and wire his certified equipment from also updating the software, if the manufacturer sets it up that way. Help me out here Garmin, what am I missing?

Brantel said:

Are you sure Dynon allows for their re-labled Trig unit to be updated in the manner you suggest? I am not certain if they do or not but I have not seen any such thing yet from them. Granted I don't keep up with them much anymore so it is possible they do like you suggest.

Click to expand...

Response to query on their forum: yes, the user can update the XPDR firmware via the "normal" process, with one difference...it will take some positive action/confirmation by the user before update, because after it's done, the user will have to put a sticker on the XPDR which has info on the current firmware version (per the TSO, I guess).

So we now know that TSO'd equipment can, in fact, have field-updatable firmware without the need for expensive shipping or shop time.

I just received my GTN 650 two days ago and now I have to send it back to USA for a software upgrade

For me from Chile, send the unit round trip to USA by Fedex will cost almost USD1000.

I just paid USD3000 imports taxes and I will have to do it again

Please Garmin is there any way you upgrade my GTN 650 at sun n fun, I could bring it with me, any other option will cost me a lot of money!!!

I don?t know a Garmin Aviation dealer here in Chile, I could be yours

ColoRv said:

The FAA also requires that certified equipment be installed by a certified shop, but we as experimental guys can order one by mail. Garmin has no problem selling to us, though someone could buy saying they are experimental yet install it in a certified plane...right? What's the difference between that and software updates? Certified are not allowed to do their own. That doesn't apply to us.

I've read through chapter 5 of the FAA order a couple of times now and while it's all in legalese, I can't find anything preventing the experimental guy who is allowed to install and wire his certified equipment from also updating the software, if the manufacturer sets it up that way. Help me out here Garmin, what am I missing?

Click to expand...

Several points. The FAA does NOT require avionics be installed by certified shop. Any A&P can do it IF they have the experience. AC 20-138A (for GPS install guidance) does not require avionics license to install a certified GPS, just A&P license.
In fact, I have seen avionics shops that lack an A&P doing installs. Unless they have a repair station license permitting airframe work, it isn't legal without mechanic's license.
A few items like transponder must be tested by certified repair station after installation.
We have flown precision approaches with non-TSO equipment as far back as I can recall. Prime example is a KX170B with external glideslope receiver (KN73 if I recall correctly). Non-TSO radio. Only fly for hire needed the KX175 TSO identical unit. Ditto other non-TSO VOR and ADF equipment.
FAA has very recently re-written Part 43 to no longer define database updates as maintenance. For Part 91 aircraft no log entry or pilot's license is needed to install update, whether certified aircraft or other category. Item 32 on Preventive Maintenance no longer exists.
Rule is more a bit complex for commercially used aircraft, which obviously does not apply to OBAM aircraft.