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Smoke refined!!!!!

My smoke system!!!!!

OK! It looks as if I have generated some interest and possibly some approval in my new smoke system. I am sort of over taxed at present with holidays and all, but I will in the next few days try to post some photos and information on this system. I have somewhat departed from the norm and feel the results are very worthwhile. Anyone that is interested in a smoke system should take a serious look at this as it has many advantages over what is currently available commercially. Best Regards and Happy Holidays to all, Allan:D
 
Into the Cylinder? I would hope not.....
Probably a fuel pump sending Corvis oil or the like into the exhaust.
 
Info & photos/Smoke system!!!!!

Info & photos/Smoke system!!!!!
Sorry for the delay on posting the info on our latest smoke system. I needed to finish my nozzle testing as I didn't want to mislead anyone causing them extra work. Over the years we have owned, purchased and built many smoke systems on dozens on airplanes. They have I wish to believe gotten better and better with each and I am satisfied that this system is one of the best to date. It is very effective and is simple to to install, use, fill and maintain. I will try to answer most questions in this post and as always pictures are worth a thousand words. This first photo shows the tank in place in the baggage area of my RV-9 and fits very nicely against the passenger side wall. I did not install a flop tube in this one as I don't intend doing any negative aerobatics in my RV-9 but it is very simple to do should you desire one. I want this system for safety and the most part flying formation etc. This entire assembly is easily removed for filling by removing one hose, unplug power and unhook the tie-down spring. This is a nice feature as it keeps you from getting messy oil all over everything. Also you can leave it home if you need the baggage space or don't need the weight (complete system under four lbs. less oil).

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The high pressure submersible pump and all tank related components are part of the billet aluminum cap assembly and require no mounting or modifications to the plane as for filling or venting Etc.

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The electrical components consist of a 15 amp fuse or breaker, 40 amp 5 pin relay, a three position switch, some wire, terminals and the High pressure, submersible pump assembly.

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All the hoses I used are high pressure Teflon steel braid that are very strong and impervious to just about any oil or chemicals. I used # 4 AN from the pump to the firewall and two # 3 AN hoses from firewall to the nozzles in the exhaust pipes.

EPSN0010.jpg


The nozzles are all stainless steel and incorporate a built in check valve that stops dribbling after shut-off and keeps the exhaust from migrating into the hoses when the system is not in use. The system operates on a relatively high pressure (140 PSI) and this is one of the differences that seems to make this systems efficiency higher than the norm. The nozzle orifices can be considerably smaller and the fan type spray nozzle tips that we made atomize the oil to a mist. This seems to give far better smoke with much less oil consumption. We are currently flowing about .5 gallons per minute and as you can see in the video clips the smoke is more than adequate. I will include some video links at the end of this post.

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I mounted my control switch beside the throttle where it is effortless to activate and doesn't require removing your hand from the throttle.

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Here are a couple of short videos of the system in action;
http://www.youtube.com/user/big04chevy#p/u/0/kmP9WC_ahwc
http://vimeo.com/18177331
 
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Very very nice! I really like the idea of incorporating everything into the cap so that a everything is removable and b there is nothing fwf except the nossels and lines. Is this just your private endeavor or do you plan on selling these? If you do not can you give us an idea where you picked up the supplies for it. Very nice job tho, I'm a huge fan.

-david
 
Flyguytki said:
Very very nice! I really like the idea of incorporating everything into the cap so that a everything is removable and b there is nothing fwf except the nossels and lines. Is this just your private endeavor or do you plan on selling these? If you do not can you give us an idea where you picked up the supplies for it. Very nice job tho, I'm a huge fan.

-david
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Thank you David for the kind words! If we get enough interest in the system I may offer some for sale but if you want to build your own I am more than happy to supply any and all available info to you or anyone else who may be interested. Regards, Allan
 
I like the integration of the system into the tank. I have concerns about a four pound system plus four gallons of oil being held in place with just that spring. Although you're in a -9 so inverted manoeuvers aren't likely. What happens if the vent gets wet from the inside? Could it handle a roll and then start venting again afterwards?
 
PerfTech said:
Thank you David for the kind words! If we get enough interest in the system I may offer some for sale but if you want to build your own I am more than happy to supply any and all available info to you or anyone else who may be interested. Regards, Allan
Click to expand...

Definatly very interested in that list so make sure I'm at the top when you do put it out!! Thanks alot!

-david
 
Snowflake said:
I like the integration of the system into the tank. I have concerns about a four pound system plus four gallons of oil being held in place with just that spring. Although you're in a -9 so inverted manoeuvers aren't likely. What happens if the vent gets wet from the inside? Could it handle a roll and then start venting again afterwards?
Click to expand...

The vent has a ball bearing gravity check valve under the bronze filter that closes if the tank is put on its side or is inverted. Also the check valve will let air in when the smoke is on even if inverted. The hold down spring is very strong but if I were going to do negative maneuvers I would install a over center latch system. I used the spring on this one as it easily comes out spring and all.
 
A few answers!!!!!

First I would like to say that it's nice to see someone that is happy with a purchase they made and is willing to support their supplier as you have. I will attempt to answer your concerns, as they may be of interest to other Van's owners considering smoke.

1. I don't believe the 25 minute job of removing a couple of exhaust pipes and welding on a fitting is too difficult for someone who built their airplane. I consider a .50 cent hose clamp holding in the oil nozzles somewhat irresponsible. Were this clamp to fail or vibrate loose you run the risk of spraying oil on red hot exhaust pipes. This will virtually guarantee a potentially fatal in-flight fire. The .50 cent clamp is OK for an EGT with minimal fire potential, not for flammable material in my plane.

2. As for the mounting of the tank it has a 1/8" safety cable inside the spring that would have to fail for the tank to become dislodged. By my calculations, with the tank full this would require 30+ G's. Not a concern!

3. The system has an adjustable pressure bypass built into the bottom of the billet cap assembly. This can accommodate any flow rate from .3 GPM up to 1.4 GPM.

4. Attached to the pump inlet is a very fine pickup screen that filters out any particles or debris over 20 microns in size. Also unlike an inline filter, every time you pull the assembly you have the opportunity to observe and clean it.

5. I have addressed the vent design and vent check valve in a previous post, but If I were doing hard negative aerobatics I would add a spiral overboard vent to the existing one.

6. As for your reservations concerning the pump, they are completely unfounded and stem from lack of being informed. If you drive a automobile less than 30 years of age that has fuel injection this submersible gas tank mounted pump is what makes it go. These rotocell high pressure pumps are in virtually every automobile gas tank. They are designed to function at maximum flow, continuously for over 150,000 miles, submerged in gasoline the entire time. The one I am using is the top of the line Walboro High Performance model. The lifespan and reliability of this unit will be many times that of the one you compared it to.

As for deflating my ambitions, I really don't have any in regards to the item in discussion. I do this for fun and relaxation not for any other reason. Money isn't one of my problems. The few systems that I build will most likely be given no charge to close friends and associates that I fly with. I have been flying for 40 years, have owned and flown most of the worlds finest aerobatic planes. I have explored I am sure my experimental options, racing formula one at Reno, aerobatic competitions and demonstrations all over the world, participation in countless airshows, was partnered with Art Scholl and Chuck Wentworth for many years. I probably have logged more hours of aerobatics with smoke than most pilots have hours. My ambitions are to enjoy life and surround myself with well informed people that feel the same. Regards, Allan

PS. Should you decide you would like to upgrade your system I would make you a very special deal!!!!
 
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I'm curious about how you came up with the nozzle design. I decided long ago to use a 120psi Carter fuel pump for the smoke system in my rocket, since I have one laying around. Most smoke systems are based on cheap low pressure water pumps used in RV's (of the recreational vehicle kind.), which just dump fuel into the exhaust. For the injector nozzle mine will be a little different, using three small holes on a conical face. Just like a diesel injector. I think it will work better as far as atomization goes.

Certainly simplifies things having a ball check in the injector like you have done.

Why not go higher up the pipe with the nozzle?
 
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I removed my post as well. No point in stirring the pot. Incidently, your system looks real nice and the submerged pump is the best part. Innovation and competition are what its all about.
 
rocketbob said:
I'm curious about how you came up with the nozzle design. I decided long ago to use a 120psi Carter fuel pump for the smoke system in my rocket, since I have one laying around. Most smoke systems are based on cheap low pressure water pumps used in RV's (of the recreational vehicle kind.), which just dump fuel into the exhaust. For the injector nozzle mine will be a little different, using three small holes on a conical face. Just like a diesel injector. I think it will work better as far as atomization goes.

Certainly simplifies things having a ball check in the injector like you have done.

Why not go higher up the pipe with the nozzle?
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I decided on this design after quite a lot of experimentation with different spray patterns. Anything will work but the finer you can atomize the oil the better the smoke Having one hole is easier to make and control than multiple holes. The stream contacts the wedge and fans out to 180 Deg. spray pattern that for me worked better than all others I tried. You ask about moving the nozzle further up the pipe and it doe's work but produces a very different looking smoke pattern. The smoke resembles a giant string of pearls in the sky from each pipe. The reason for this is very simple, the four stroke engine only duplicates an exhaust cycle once every 720 deg. of rotation. This exhaust valve opening lasts aprox. 210 deg. of which only 100 deg. is effective exhaust flow that can evacuate the pipe. The smoke system is injecting oil into the pipe continuously so 1&3/4 rotation of the engine the pipe is being charged with oil and only being expelled about 12% of the time thus producing the puffing or smoke balls. The more cylinders you have working on the oil spray the more and smoother the smoke. If you are interested I can send you a link to the stainless spray heads I started with to produce my nozzles. The pump you were going to use should work very well as they are a quality unit designed for petroleum products. I am not a fan of using a water pump intended for a camper to pump flammable liquids ether. Thank you for your interest, Allan
 
PerfTech said:
I decided on this design after quite a lot of experimentation with different spray patterns. Anything will work but the finer you can atomize the oil the better the smoke Having one hole is easier to make and control than multiple holes. The stream contacts the wedge and fans out to 180 Deg. spray pattern that for me worked better than all others I tried. You ask about moving the nozzle further up the pipe and it doe's work but produces a very different looking smoke pattern. The smoke resembles a giant string of pearls in the sky from each pipe. The reason for this is very simple, the four stroke engine only duplicates an exhaust cycle once every 720 deg. of rotation. This exhaust valve opening lasts aprox. 210 deg. of which only 100 deg. is effective exhaust flow that can evacuate the pipe. The smoke system is injecting oil into the pipe continuously so 1&3/4 rotation of the engine the pipe is being charged with oil and only being expelled about 12% of the time thus producing the puffing or smoke balls. The more cylinders you have working on the oil spray the more and smoother the smoke. If you are interested I can send you a link to the stainless spray heads I started with to produce my nozzles. The pump you were going to use should work very well as they are a quality unit designed for petroleum products. I am not a fan of using a water pump intended for a camper to pump flammable liquids ether. Thank you for your interest, Allan
Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense. Yes please send me the link. [email protected]
 
Allan,
First just wanted to say thanks for the post and the pictures. I see that some of the previous posts have been removed. It can be challanging at times throwing something out there for people to scrutinize. One of the things I like about experimental aviation is we can collect all the best ideas in our opinion and build something in our own image. Your post along with the smoke system on a budget post has given me many ideas for my own system. I really like the idea of the welded boses on the exhaust pipes and I also really like the idea of the pump being in the tank. I like the ideas of the check valves as well. If you choose to give up your source for the can and pump I would be interested.
Once again
Thanks,
Ryan
 
131RB said:
Allan,
First just wanted to say thanks for the post and the pictures. I see that some of the previous posts have been removed. It can be challanging at times throwing something out there for people to scrutinize. One of the things I like about experimental aviation is we can collect all the best ideas in our opinion and build something in our own image. Your post along with the smoke system on a budget post has given me many ideas for my own system. I really like the idea of the welded boses on the exhaust pipes and I also really like the idea of the pump being in the tank. I like the ideas of the check valves as well. If you choose to give up your source for the can and pump I would be interested.
Once again
Thanks,
Ryan
Click to expand...
Here are a few links to sources for good high quality parts. Hope this helps and thank you for the kind words. Allan

http://www.mcmaster.com/#spray-tips/=ag9k4o Part #30995K22 nozzle tips about $15.00 ea.

http://www.atlinc.com/rotomolded.html Link to plastic fuel tank manufacturer.

http://www.walbrofuelpumps.com/ Part # 255LPH High Pressure Lexus 400 $99.00 = $10.00 to ship.

http://www.gandjaircraft.net/index-2.html This is a link for you guys outside of California that have not herd of G & J aircraft services in Ontario, Ca. They are a group of very knowledgeable guys with one of the nations largest selection of surplus and new aircraft parts. One of their specialties is all AN fittings known to man and they will ship same day. Give them a college try.
 
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Looks like you cut the hex off of the McMaster spray nozzle and screwed the body into the hex adapter...?
 
Looks nice!

Congrats with a nice system! It's looks real good and I'm impressed by your willingness to experiment and invent!

What kind of smoke oil are you using? A RV-6 of friend of mine and me are going to need smokeoil in a year or so and we're having a hard time finding it in Norway. Therefore, the sollution will probably be to import a couple of drums from the US...
 
ao.frog said:
Congrats with a nice system! It's looks real good and I'm impressed by your willingness to experiment and invent!

What kind of smoke oil are you using? A RV-6 of friend of mine and me are going to need smokeoil in a year or so and we're having a hard time finding it in Norway. Therefore, the sollution will probably be to import a couple of drums from the US...
Click to expand...

Paraffin based hydraulic oil will give the best smoke with the longest hang time and is most likely the least expensive to purchase. Keep in mind that you can use just about anything that will vapor off well. I have tried everything from french fryer oil to transmission fluid, drain oil, diesel fuel, mineral spirits,jp4 and mixtures of all the above with good success. Don't be afraid to experiment with something that is readily available to you. If the viscosity is too high you can thin it down with diesel or solvent to a usable SAE. Have fun, Allan
 
Allan,

I already have smoke, so don't really have a dog in this fight. But that's no reason to not pass along some info. Went back and read all the posts after the moderators did their thing. I was struck by a couple of comments you made which I'm certain didn't sit well with the SA users. The first: "I consider a .50 cent hose clamp holding in the oil nozzles somewhat irresponsible". There are probably thousands of hose clamps holding SA injectors in place. You have personal knowledge of any that have failed? The second: "I am not a fan of using a water pump intended for a camper to pump flammable liquids ether". The pump used by SA is a Shurflo pump designed to pump oil and transmission fluid. Details here:

http://www.depcopump.com/datasheets/shurflo/8050-305-526.pdf

I messed around with spray nozzles for a while, but decided against them for a couple of reasons. First, I didn't want to drill a 1/2" hole in the exhaust, and second, Larry Vetterman recommended against welding a boss on the pipe. You might want to talk to him and find out if his concern is valid in your book. If you want to have a look at a much larger assortment of SS nozzles for way less than what McMaster charges, go here http://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/ and look in the lower right corner to download the catalog. Dig around until you find the section on spray nozzles. You'll also find pressure/flow rate for each nozzle. Long-term testing will determine if crud in exhaust system will eventually block very small holes in the injector.

And as far as having a clean belly, I don't think that will happen with any smoke system, no matter how efficient it might be. The vaporized smoke oil expands and cools very rapidly when it leaves the pipes. When it does, it condenses back to a liquid and settles on the belly. The plus is the tailwheel very seldom needs to be lubed.

Anyway, that's about it. Nice looking system you've developed!

Tony
 
Hello Tony: I wasn't intending to ruffle anyone's feathers with the statement about the hose clamps but I personally had an in flight fire that was absolutely frightening and thought I was about to meet my maker. I was less than 200 ft altitude and barely got on the ground in time to escape. The airplane was destroyed and I must say this left a lasting impression on me. Hence my concerns about the hose clamps!
I was only responding to RocketBob"s statement in post #18 of this thread about using a water pump to pump oil not being a vary good idea. I have no idea what pump is being used by anyone offering a system for sale, nor do I particularly care, as it has no effect on what I use or feel is a superior product that fits my needs.
I have always used nozzles on my smoke systems over the years and they have been trouble free with no clogging or degrading with time. I always use weld in bungs in my exhaust as well. If they are properly tig welded in with the appropriate welding rod this will not compromise the exhaust system in any way. Larry Vetterman manufactures a very attractive, high quality, superior product and it is very understandable his concerns and reservations as to someone altering it. I have the same feelings with our products as well. With the huge number of products we manufacture and sell this can be a major problem.
www.turbonetics.com http://www.extremeperformance1.com/
The clean belly is most likely a combination of well expanded oil and the fact that my exhaust outlets are several inches below the belly of my plane.
I started this thread with a small statement about smoke on one of my airplanes. This led to some questions and confusing speculation in regards to it. Many people expressed a desire to know more of what I was doing so I attempted to supply any and all information available and answer there questions completely and to the best of my abilities. For some reason that completely escapes me, I seem to find myself in a position of needing to defend myself and my ideas. I am more than capable of this task, but must say that I don't enjoy it very much as it takes the fun out of sharing. Unfortunately my experience with most open forums has been such. I guess that is the nature of the beast and if we are here we deal with it! Regards all, Allan
 
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I have a Smoking Airplanes unit. Works well. Your high pressure system is interesting and conceivably has benefits compared to one that is low pressure. I have no way to test the two. That would be of value to test flow rate and smoke quality.

What I do not understand is why welding some sort of fitting onto the exhaust that the injector apparently screws into is bad. As long as the injector can be removed easily to clean it...if that is even required...it seems like a viable mounting solution.

Allan, look at my posts about ADS-B Out and the "contrary viewpoints." You might think that I am anti-safety for not embracing something that I disagree with. Such is life.
 
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Allan,
Once again thanks for the post pic's and part numbers. This will be a great help to me and others. I think your system shows a lot of inovation and thought. No matter what you choose to do there will always be critics and thats just the way it is. I have to agree with you on the welded boses on the exhaust and believe this is a much cleaner installation saftey or not. If my opinion is worth anything given this system is made for positive G's. The biggest thing in my mind to change would be to have a separate fill port for the smoke oil so as not to have to spill oil when removing the pump and cap. I might choose to mount mine in a different fassion. These are stricktly changes I might make and of course that would be up to me. I see nothing wrong with your set up and think its AOK.
Ryan
 
Just thinking out loud here... I haven't looked under my panel with a tape measure, but could a thin tank like this fit if you mounted it on the firewall inside the cabin? I'm thinking with a built-in filler tube to an external fill port. Mount it above the center rudder pedal support, maybe with a shelf added to the firewall?

Just thinking about CG, and getting the weight forward as far as possible... Some of these RV's are a little tail heavy when loaded...
 
Snowflake said:
Just thinking out loud here... I haven't looked under my panel with a tape measure, but could a thin tank like this fit if you mounted it on the firewall inside the cabin? I'm thinking with a built-in filler tube to an external fill port. Mount it above the center rudder pedal support, maybe with a shelf added to the firewall?

Just thinking about CG, and getting the weight forward as far as possible... Some of these RV's are a little tail heavy when loaded...
Click to expand...

That would be a very slick installation for sure. There is no magic to the tank and it really isn't a big job to fab an aluminum tank that is custom to your installation that would fit perfectly. I think it would be great and am sure others would like it as well. Allan
 
Allan,

First off, cool, innovative system! If Smokey wasn't already taken as a call sign, perhaps you'd get it...but its gone, so maybe we gotta come up with something about safes, eh! :p

Sorry we didn't get to talk more at Big Bear...it wasn't till after you left that I realized we met briefly, and I would have liked to have seen your system up close. And you guys may not know it, but the two smoke-debaters (you and Scoot) were sitting at tables right smack-dab next to each other at brunch!

I mention that because of the last few posts (about forum debates), which are understandable. I never saw the posts referred to as rude, but thanks for pullin' it/them, as Scooter is a bud too, and fact is, we all have a common interest. And guys with smoke sytems are like fighter pilots, right?...we have thick skins, right?...we can ask tough questions that either further knowledge or improve stuff, and still buy each other a round, right? So hatchet buried? Cool!! OK, so let's talk smoke! :D

I also have one of John's SA systems, and love it. I was going to roll my own...wanted the challenge...then wanted it in before the Nellis show, and found that John's system was so well put together and so well packaged that it was both dead simple and still enough work to install that it scratched the itch to tinker and experiment. I even came up with a couple nuances to set it up just the way I want it...even took apart my Tosten CH-4 stick grip to install an on-off (non-momentary) switch for the smoke, right where the coolie-hat goes on a CH-8. So doggone proud of it I forgot to take a picture of it!! :rolleyes: I like your switch too...its close to where I had mine, which is now rewired as an arm switch for the stick grip button. One could use any type of switch with yours, I'm sure.

I'll brag on John and SA all day, but I like what you've done too. I had some of the same questions Scooter and others had, but you've answered them pretty well. I have other questions and thoughts too, FWIW, all for the good of talking smoke!!

I like the conformal tank (cool name, eh!). The pump design makes that possible. Does the pump pick-up sit really low in the tank, so as to scavenge all or most of the oil? I know you could rotate the tank 180 degrees and put the pickup at the back, where the oil level might stay a bit higher in level flight (slightly nose high attitude), and that would just make one use a bit longer of a hose run.

How does that pump tolerate running dry? I know the Shur-Flo that SA uses can run a very long time dry with no ill effects. Is it the same for the submersible pump?

I have a preference for pseudo-permanent tank installs. The reinforced spring is probably good for a 9, and a bracket shouldn't be too hard to fab. Once one does that, the external fill kit is a cool mod. Wonder if a conformal tank with a pump insertion point in the top-back and an opening to attach a fill kit in the top-front could be found (there's a mod suggestion for the Quad-S..."Safe Sex Smoke System"...ah...maybe that's not such a great name after all...that's why they call me Nasty, I guess :rolleyes: Maybe it could stand for the Side by Side Smoke System ;)) Just saw Snowflake's query on back-of-FW tanks. Roger the CG thing...perhaps that's a minor downside of the conformal tank that puts fluid and weight back towards the baggage bulkhead...though the effective weight is probably mid-baggage floor. The FW-backside location may pose some interesting fill-kit install issues, and maybe external vent issues if you go that route...interesting idea though, just some things to consider.

How good is that vent in the cap, especially the check valve (is it spring loaded, or just a ball that would prevent spillage in a roll over)? How easy would it be to go to an external vent with that cap...you mentioned that as a possibility, right? Perhaps a similar tank with a separate vent in it could be had as well.

On the nozzle, I'm pretty happy with the safety-wired hose clamp arrangement. Perhaps something to inspect regularly. Don't know enough to say yay or nay on welding the bungs, would have to ask Larry on that. And just to confirm, you have had no clogging with these fan spray-pattern nozzles?

Oh, and was it a smoke system that caused your inflight fire...just wondering? Quite a story, I'm sure...perhaps a round or two will ply the story someday!

Anywho...your smoke looked good, in the video and at Big Bear, and the kids on the balcony at the Barnstorm Cafe hooted when you, Scooter and Condor took off, so it was a crowd pleaser!

Oh, meant to ask...what was that oil in your tank. Pretty dark secret sauce! Smoked well tho!

Hope to run into you again, and happy smokin'!!

Cheers,
Bob
 
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Hello Bob!!!!!!!

Hello Bob;
Thanks for the comments on my system. I will try to answer some of things you asked about. I do remember speaking with you at Big Bear and I agree more time would have been nice. After we went outside I talked to Scott by his plane when he was waiting to purchase fuel. Two of my very good friends and I were very impressed with the quality of his paint job and took time to compliment him on his work. It's nice to see that pride in your work and one should be reworded for their efforts.

The tank I put in my 9 in just one that I have roto-molded and supply on one model of our alcohol injection systems used on the turbo kits we manufacture. It seemed to fit nicely in my airplane so I used it. We actually have 13 different tank sizes made at present for various vehicles and we build our own roto-mold tooling as needed in house. If I were going to make and sell systems I would make custom tooling for every model as tooling is very cheap.

My pump is on the bottom of the tank and the pick-up is at the bottom as well. I am currently building three more systems for friends, all with RV-8's. They are all aerobatic pilots as well so these systems will have flop tubes installed and will function in any position. I am not selling these I am giving them no charge and am looking forward to their feedback and comments. They will be mounted in the baggage area of their 8's and I will post photos as available. I am told that because the pump is pumping oil that 5 min. or so on time after the tank empties won't hurt them but it most likely isn't good for any pump to run dry.

I agree with your statement about permanent mounting of the tanks. I didn't want to maim my airplane with holes for fillers and vents Etc. so I made it removable. I would only consider this in a 9!
The vent works great doing rolls in my 9 and doesn't loose a drop, but were I to install a more permanent system I would add an overboard vent as well.

The oil is a 50/50 mixture of mineral spirits and a cheap hydraulic oil, works OK but paraffin base has double the hang time. Well I suppose I need to call this quits for now and get busy and do some work. If you are flying out to my area (Redlands Ca.) be certain to let me know and perhaps we can do those rounds you spoke of. Regards, Allan
 
Hey Allan you said you have the capabilities to making your own tanks, what do you think about a possibly larger tank that would take up the space behind one of the seats. Very similar to the RV Flight bags made by bison (http://www.bisonmountainbags.com/RVFlighBags.html) CG most likely would not be a big deal as it is very close to the seat and the large mass that takes its place:). Securing it shouldent be too big of a deal in that area as well, there is plenty to attach it to.

just an idea

-david
 
Flyguytki said:
Hey Allan you said you have the capabilities to making your own tanks, what do you think about a possibly larger tank that would take up the space behind one of the seats. Very similar to the RV Flight bags made by bison (http://www.bisonmountainbags.com/RVFlighBags.html) CG most likely would not be a big deal as it is very close to the seat and the large mass that takes its place:). Securing it shouldent be too big of a deal in that area as well, there is plenty to attach it to.

just an idea

-david
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Hi David;
Making a molded plastic tank that shape is not that difficult but the demand would need to be high enough to justify the tooling investment. For a one off it would be easier to fabricate one out of aluminum. If you should decide you would like one made let me know and I will have my guys quot it for you. Looks like it would be nice but is really big and would hold a lot of oil. Cheers, Allan
 
rvmills said:
Just saw Snowflake's query on back-of-FW tanks. Roger the CG thing...perhaps that's a minor downside of the conformal tank that puts fluid and weight back towards the baggage bulkhead...though the effective weight is probably mid-baggage floor. The FW-backside location may pose some interesting fill-kit install issues, and maybe external vent issues if you go that route...interesting idea though, just some things to consider.
Click to expand...
A friend pointed out that with my tip-up canopy, the filler neck could come up between the panel and the sub-panel, thereby being totally hidden with the canopy closed, and easily accessible with it open. I'll have to give this more thought, that location is seeming more and more attractive every day.
 
Rob,

Ya know, I was thinking about the FW location in terms of my slider, and how much fun I have working under there. A tip-up might make it pretty do-able, and the hidden filler neck would be pretty trick. You could probably make a little bracket that a filler cap could be mounted to, and then have some sort of protective cover around the filler neck to protect the avionics, etc. Perhaps venting could be done through the floor, out near where many fuel tank vents are.

Easier to install, easier to service, easier to fill...might be on to something there. Have fun designing!!

Cheers,
Bob
 
Snowflake said:
A friend pointed out that with my tip-up canopy, the filler neck could come up between the panel and the sub-panel, thereby being totally hidden with the canopy closed, and easily accessible with it open. I'll have to give this more thought, that location is seeming more and more attractive every day.
Click to expand...

Why not have a pressure fill system? You'd need an external pump and supply tank for the oil (or a gravity feed system), but there would be no danger of spillage. Use a quick-connect coupling of some type on the tank, or run it up to be accessible from the oil filler door. Of course, you need an overboard vent for this type of system or you could fill the cockpit with oil which is not good.

Vern
 
Snowflake said:
A friend pointed out that with my tip-up canopy, the filler neck could come up between the panel and the sub-panel, thereby being totally hidden with the canopy closed, and easily accessible with it open. I'll have to give this more thought, that location is seeming more and more attractive every day.
Click to expand...
That seems like a really great location for the tank. If you decide to put a system on your plane let me know if we can help with it. Allan
 
Allan, have you tried Conosol 260 for smoke oil. It is the only thing I have been able to find so far.
 
Ron Lee said:
Allan, have you tried Conosol 260 for smoke oil. It is the only thing I have been able to find so far.
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Yes I have used it and had good success. Keep in mind most any type of oil will work so don't be afraid to experiment. Allan
 
Now I feel Bad!

Now I feel Bad!

Hi Scott No need for any of that, You were just stating the way you felt at the time and nobody does that more often or with less grace than myself. This is all in fun and for the sake of it, nothing more. I will be coming up your way in a month or so and perhaps we can get together for lunch or to compare notes. Regards, Allan
 
Geez Scooter,

You use more 5 syllable words than anyone I know. Pretty soon we'll be calling it a Condensation Nuclei Distribution System! You should teach Englsh or something! :D

Cheers,
Bob
 
PerfTech said:
OK! It looks as if I have generated some interest and possibly some approval in my new smoke system. I am sort of over taxed at present with holidays and all, but I will in the next few days try to post some photos and information on this system. I have somewhat departed from the norm and feel the results are very worthwhile. Anyone that is interested in a smoke system should take a serious look at this as it has many advantages over what is currently available commercially. Best Regards and Happy Holidays to all, Allan:D
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I AM VERY INTERESTED IN YOUR SYS. OR AT LEAST THE NOOOZLES. PLEASE CONTACT ME AT 936-443-3562 THX DENNIS MCCRIGHT RV-6 COMPLETE, RV-8 UNDER CONSTRUCTION.
 
PerfTech said:
OK! It looks as if I have generated some interest and possibly some approval in my new smoke system. I am sort of over taxed at present with holidays and all, but I will in the next few days try to post some photos and information on this system. I have somewhat departed from the norm and feel the results are very worthwhile. Anyone that is interested in a smoke system should take a serious look at this as it has many advantages over what is currently available commercially. Best Regards and Happy Holidays to all, Allan:D
Click to expand...

I AM VERY INTERESTED IN YOUR SYS. OR AT LEAST THE NOOOZLES. PLEASE CONTACT ME AT 936-443-3562 THX DENNIS MCCRIGHT RV-6 COMPLETE, RV-8 UNDER CONSTRUCTION. [email protected]
 
PerfTech said:
I decided on this design after quite a lot of experimentation with different spray patterns. Anything will work but the finer you can atomize the oil the better the smoke Having one hole is easier to make and control than multiple holes. The stream contacts the wedge and fans out to 180 Deg. spray pattern that for me worked better than all others I tried. You ask about moving the nozzle further up the pipe and it doe's work but produces a very different looking smoke pattern. The smoke resembles a giant string of pearls in the sky from each pipe. The reason for this is very simple, the four stroke engine only duplicates an exhaust cycle once every 720 deg. of rotation. This exhaust valve opening lasts aprox. 210 deg. of which only 100 deg. is effective exhaust flow that can evacuate the pipe. The smoke system is injecting oil into the pipe continuously so 1&3/4 rotation of the engine the pipe is being charged with oil and only being expelled about 12% of the time thus producing the puffing or smoke balls. The more cylinders you have working on the oil spray the more and smoother the smoke. If you are interested I can send you a link to the stainless spray heads I started with to produce my nozzles. The pump you were going to use should work very well as they are a quality unit designed for petroleum products. I am not a fan of using a water pump intended for a camper to pump flammable liquids ether. Thank you for your interest, Allan
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Allen, you had some good information in this older thread. I am looking to replace my homeade nozzles with something off the shelf. I'd be curious to see your results from trying different nozzles. I noticed that even SA is now using an off the shelf nozzle but I can't tell what orifice size it is from looking at it (my buddy purchased their kit) but it definately looks to be a 40deg fan spary pattern. Not that I need to find this exact one but real world experience from others would help make a decision.

If anyone else has had success with different nozzles I'd like to see that info as well. Lots of places sell nozzles including Grainger which is just down the road from my house.
 
Anti splat aero

Allen, I've got many of your products on my RV6 now and love them all! If I didn't have a SA system already I'd certainly look at yours. Keep up the good work over there and keeps us posted on any new products! Thanks ...jim
 
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