What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Spray area in the basement - Bad Idea?

R

rkiefer2

Well Known Member
Im going with Ekoprime for the interior pieces. I've setup a small spray booth in the basement. By booth I mean I have plastic on 2 walls and the floor. Probably going to add a shower curtain to make a 4 walled area.

With that said I haven't setup any type of direct ventilation or exhaust.

How much or an issue is the odor and overspray with smaller parts? Paints arriving this weekend and trying to figure out what to expect.
 
rkiefer2 said:
With that said I haven't setup any type of direct ventilation or exhaust.

How much or an issue is the odor and overspray with smaller parts? Paints arriving this weekend and trying to figure out what to expect.
Click to expand...

This depends what you're spraying. Two part poly's (including many epoxies) make one serious mess. Tack free time is usually 5 minutes + and the stuff hanging in the air will settle on everything and and stick. This can be controlled, but you usually need exhaust to do so. Two parts also use Isocyanates and I wouldn't want that trapped in my house. Very nasty stuff. That said, the Iso's are heavy and settle to lower levels quickly. However, I am not sure what happens if you don't exhaust them. I would expect them to stay forever and eventually move around the house.

I don't know Ekoprime or it's chemistry, so cant really help much. At a minimum, your house is going to stink and the better half will be quite unhappy. My wife complains when I spray in the garage and almost no smell gets in the house.

Larry
 
Get some extraction and a furnace filter.

I primed all my wings using Ekoprime, and have just finished my fuselage skins before temperatures get below 20degC here, as Ekoprime doesn't work well below those temps (the lowest I've pulled off is 18degC). I paint outside with a hobbyair system (because I had it already) and admit that there is almost no vapor smell once I take my mask off, especially compared to the self etch primer I used to use. From the way I see it, you will still need some type of extraction fan. It doesn't have to be a blast proof fan because it is not flammable, but you should definitely get something to extract with (and a filter), especially if you are only using an organic vapor respirator. The downside of having no smell is that if you have any breakthrough around the mask (i.e. not a tight seal or have not shaved that day) you will not know you are breathing Ekopoxy particles. Thus, limiting the concentration in the air is not a bad thing. The other thing is that the mist will build up, making it hard to see your work, especially if you are doing a large batch. The particles do stay airborne for quite some time, especially if you are using a smaller nozzle regular gun, which I have found works so long as you add a little more water to the batch (I use an A:B:Water ratio of 5:1:1.75 instead of the 5:1:1 recommended for a 1.3mm HVLP setup). I hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Tom.
 
Check MSDS! ISOs can and have killed people! it is a sensitizer that is BAD! that said.....I am painting as I go, in fact, epoxy primer the fuse today, you will need to move a lot of air to get the spray out and then a lower volume while it is curing, I try to do it when no one is home and then ventilate the house, the garage doors are all taped up and sealed but the fumes still get in??? still married!.....another issue is filtration, when you move in fresh air it needs to be filtered and depending where you live, you may need to filter the exhaust. in the end it is very rewarding. a word on masks, the fresh air is the best, I use a 3M full face with organic filters, this has a protection factor of 50, the half mask is 10, also need to cover all skin areas.
 
Explosions

Use great caution if any dust, thinners or paints are combustable!. Think of sources of spark in your paint area. Water heaters? Fans?

I own a guitar that was a friends who died when the floor tile glue he was using flashed off near his water heater!

Think of the dust setting off explosions at grain and sugar mills and storage facilities.

Caution!
 
I have used Ekoprime on all my parts so far. It appears to do a great job.
I set up a down draft table to trap the overspray. Even without a spray booth that trapped 95% or more of the overspray. The best part about Ekoprime is I can leave it in a dedicated gun and not have to worry about it setting up. Just grab, shake and spray. There are solids that tend to settle so I leave the gun upside down between uses (A cheap HF $15 gun). For those that are not familiar with Ekoprime, it is a one part (no mixing), non-toxic, water based primer sold by Stewart Systems. (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/primersealer.php)

For a down draft table make a frame of 2x4s, cover the table top with the plastic mesh fencing from Home Depot. Wrap the bottom with a tarp and install two box fans at either end with the fine furnace filters duct taped over them. Overspray will go right through the fencing material and the fans will pull the overspray through the filters. I'll even leave it on for a good while after I spray to re-filter the shop air and clean up the last bits in the air. You can see the top of my table in the bottom pic here (http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=leok&project=2446&category=0&log=203949&row=97) Also, mine is screwed together with deck screws and can be taken apart and moved in about 10 mins.

One word of warning is that the table will not work on large pieces as the overspray will reflect back off the larger surface and into the air above the table. It is fantastic for small pieces.
 
Last edited:
not to start the old war; but there are thousands of unprimed 40-50 year old Cessna's still going strong.
 
lr172 said:
This depends what you're spraying. Two part poly's (including many epoxies) make one serious mess. Tack free time is usually 5 minutes + and the stuff hanging in the air will settle on everything and and stick. This can be controlled, but you usually need exhaust to do so. Two parts also use Isocyanates and I wouldn't want that trapped in my house. Very nasty stuff. That said, the Iso's are heavy and settle to lower levels quickly. However, I am not sure what happens if you don't exhaust them. I would expect them to stay forever and eventually move around the house.

I don't know Ekoprime or it's chemistry, so cant really help much. At a minimum, your house is going to stink and the better half will be quite unhappy. My wife complains when I spray in the garage and almost no smell gets in the house.

Larry
Click to expand...
+1 Ditto on the smell sensitivity of spouse. Just my opinion, but inside is a bad idea unless you have lots of ventilation - and that will draw in -20F air in the winter.
 
I'm kind of in agreement with Tom. Priming has been a huge PITA for me, not to mention that you are scuffing up perfectly good alclad (which is there to prevent corrosion) with scotchbrite before you lay the primer down. Even though I've primed my aircraft, if I was in the situation where I was building in the basement, I would only be priming the non alclad parts per Van's requirements, with Ekoprime over a downdraft spray table. Use at a minimum a full face organic vapor mask (if you can't afford a hobbyair system) THAT FITS WELL and shave before use. I'd go for the new 3M FX model (I have the older 3M full face and I hear this is a lot more comfortable - very important because you will be using it a lot).
http://www.amazon.com/3M-Facepiece-Respirator-Respiratory-Protection/dp/B00AR63TRS
Match it to some good organic vapor cartridges. Use P100 not P95 particulate filters for the best protection. The following ones have the P100 filter inbuilt.
http://www.amazon.com/3M-Cartridge-...260&sr=1-1&keywords=organic+vapor+acid+gas+3m

From my perspective, the tanks are even worse than the priming. I blew through 4 sets of organic vapor cartridges during the month I built them. So keep this in mind should you go down the route of the standard build. I may be a little OCD about this though, because I also wear a half face 3M 7501 respirator when cutting and edge finishing, because who wants scotchbrite and aluminum dust in your lungs? After a few days of edge finishing my filters will be completely grey.
Keep the aircraft hangared when you have finished, and if you're worried about not being able to sell it in the future, go find a customer in Arizona or New Mexico where nothing corrodes. My two cents. I'd just hate to see you make this build a misery then not get it completed.
Cheers. Tom.
 
One more post... probably a bad idea since I am generally going against the conventional wisdom here.
Ekoprime is a game changer in my opinion (based on actual use) so far as priming is concerned. Water based, single component, non-toxic and no VOC (volatile organic compounds ... read organic solvents). It is essentially like working with a latex house paint.

I fill a dedicated HF spray gun and leave it in the gun. I store the gun upside down between uses as there is some solids settling that will clog the gun otherwise. When I need to prime a part, I turn on the downdraft table, shake the gun well and spray. No muss, no fuss and no clean up. The gun goes back upside down with a quick wipe of the nozzle ready for the next use. 15-30 min dry time and ready to assemble. (It will harden further over night and makes it less likely to scuff)
I wear a simple good quality dust mask. Organic cartridge respirators are not needed since there is no VOC (organic compounds) in the paint. (By the way, I am a chemist and have some significant experience here) Any overspray that does get loose settles as dry dust and can be wiped up easily with a wet rag. My shop is not part of the house so I can only say on smell that it is minimal. Certainly less than painting a room in the house.
So my suggestion is (only with Ekoprime) build a downdraft table and try it out. If you don't like the result, then move it outside somewhere.
 
Tom Martin said:
... there are thousands of unprimed 40-50 year old Cessna's still going strong.
Click to expand...
...find a customer in Arizona or New Mexico where nothing corrodes.
Click to expand...
I used to believe this ....till I bought a 1947 Cessna 140 that had been in NM for the last 20+ years, half of that indoors in controlled temps. I have found light surface corrosion though out the entire airframe. A real PITA to clean. It now is epoxy coated.

It sounds like Ekoptime is the answer.

My new (1993) RV6A is 100% primed. I did not build it but I am sure future owners will appreciate that it was done. JMHO
 
Happy wife?

rkiefer2 said:
Im going with Ekoprime for the interior pieces. I've setup a small spray booth in the basement. By booth I mean I have plastic on 2 walls and the floor. Probably going to add a shower curtain to make a 4 walled area.

With that said I haven't setup any type of direct ventilation or exhaust.

How much or an issue is the odor and overspray with smaller parts? Paints arriving this weekend and trying to figure out what to expect.
Click to expand...

Or perhaps, do you want to stay married? I suggest a large tent in the back yard might be a safer location. Do check the TAF and pick some nice calm conditions.
 
Last edited:
I've been spraying EkoPrime in my garage with no issues. I haven't set up any type of spray booth. I've just been throwing cardboard on the floor and spraying the parts. I've done the whole empennage kit of my RV10 this way.

I wear a mask. As someone else pointed out, the particles kind of float around in the air for quite some time. I really need some kind of an exhaust system. I can tell you (as long as you don't tell my wife) that her black bike now has a permanent layer of "dust" on it.

I really need to come up with a better solution, I'm just too lazy.

I went the EkoPrime route because I knew that i needed to do this in my garage and wanted something that wasn't going to stink up the whole house. It definitely doesn't stink. I also like the fact that its easy clean up in the sink... along with the chemical etch product EkoEtch.

My $0.02, your mileage may vary...
Charlie
 
Don't make this too hard

Do yourself and your wife a favor. Prime outside. This is what I did for two airplanes:
- Create a prime pile. Work on stuff until ready to prime, mark and disassemble. Continue on to the next part. When you have enough to prime to make it worth the time, then prime.
- I used an old folding table on the driveway to do all the work. First step is cleaning with PPG DX 553 Alumiprep. Mix 1 part Alumiprep to 3 parts water. Using a red Scotchbrite pad and the Alumiprep mixture, clean the parts. Rinse with a lot of water (garden hose). Light pressure on the Scotchbrite pad. You can tell if you are clean enough if the rinse water flows off in a sheet instead of beading.
http://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotch-Bri...F8&qid=1459532965&sr=8-2&keywords=scotchbrite
- Let air dry.
- Prime using a standard Harbor Freight HVLP gun and PPG DP-40LF primer. Even outside you need to use a respirator.
- Do all this the same day to enhance adhesion.

Clean up, proceed onto assembly with your nicely primed parts, then start another prime pile. Get credit from your wife about keeping all this smelly stuff outside.

After 13 years the primer in the 8A still looks like the day I put it on - and the one oil mess that went into the fuselage cleaned off without problem.

Carl
 
tgmillso said:
I'm kind of in agreement with Tom. Priming has been a huge PITA for me, not to mention that you are scuffing up perfectly good alclad (which is there to prevent corrosion) with scotchbrite before you lay the primer down.
Click to expand...

I can't manage to keep a part pristine without requiring scotchbrite and sandpaper touchups. At that point I might as well scuff and prime anyway.

Regardless, I live near the coast. Priming is mandatory. I etch using Krud Kutter metal etch (looks like the same stuff that's in alumiprep, just cheaper), rinse with a garden hose, and prime with Ekoprime once dry. I just wish I was better with a spraygun--I get coverage but sometimes it looks like ****.
 
Basement Spray Booth...maybe bad!

Following the thread with interest. In the 1970's I had a 4' X 4' pray booth built into the basement of our house where I repaired mechanical business machines. I sprayed solvents, light oils and rattle can paints and steps were taken to prevent combustion. When I built this I tested it with the fan exhausting air out the side house wall through an oil trap then outdoors...It would suck a balled up page of newspaper dropped from about four feet outside the booth clear to the vent grill without it hitting the floor. Great!

BUT, it also sucked the furnace and hot water heater gases back down the chimney as well which I had not foreseen. I had to seal the room entirely, shut off both the furnace and water heater, open a window, then power up the spray booth before using it. And we then lived in Minnesota meaning cold winters so smoke in the living quarters was not good!

Take care because this can get nasty regardless of the primer being shot as my experience shows. House furnaces are different today from 40 years ago but gas water heaters are much the same in most cases and houses are tighter which doesn't help. A spray booth can upset the pressure balance inside the house.

Dick DeCramer
RV6 N500DD flying
RV8 Finish Kit
Las Cruces, NM
 
I have a card board box of 30 year old RV4 parts sitting in a damp corner of our old milk house. The parts look 30 years old but there is no corrosion.
So the question is; put your family health at risk to protect something that MAY not be necessary?
You have spent a lot of money so far, if you decide that priming is necessary then go to a local auto paint shop and work out a deal to get batches of parts primed. The price of one less EFFIS will more then cover the cost and keep your family safe.
 
I did paint in the basement but used rattle can primer, which has worked well.

My method was to prep everything at the end of my work session; alumiprep and then alodine and let it dry overnight.

I would get up early the next morning, and spray everything, eat, shower, leave for work.

There would be a light order in the basement and much more in the garage.

Since the house would be empty all day, it would be cleared out when we would return home.

A couple of things to think about, once you start spraying in the basement, you don't want to spend a lot of time down there as it stinks! Protect yourself from the fumes!

I built a simple spray table that can be seen in the picture below. was a simple 2x4 frame with chicken wire to lay the parts on. Its advantage was that overspray would blow past your parts and not bounce dirt up on them. I could hang parts from the wire as well.

Because I would be painting over the part numbers, I would write the part numbers or assembly order on the 2x4 frame so I would know where each part was to go in final assembly.


(click to enlarge)
 
Last edited:
Ekoprime is great for what it does NOT do, but does it provide what you want? And . . . what DO you want? The primer selection (if any) depends on what is wanted.

Corrosion protection for 2024?
Adhesion promoter?
Base coat for 2k topcoats?
Can it be wiped off with acetone?
How much weight will be added?

Read this about a more modern corrosion protection systems that meets all the above. Documentation by the DoD. Already paid for.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=132707

Be sure to read the links they contain the real information. It is better to learn this at the beginning of a build. Otherwise you (we) are depending on the fact that no corrosion protection is needed anyway.
 
Do a test with your rattle can primers. Wet it with 100LL then wipe it with a cloth. If it comes off with 100LL then why bother? each time you overfill your tanks, or it weeps from the vent and trails back your fuselage the inferior primer will melt away.
 
Tom Martin said:
Do a test with your rattle can primers. Wet it with 100LL then wipe it with a cloth. If it comes off with 100LL then why bother? each time you overfill your tanks, or it weeps from the vent and trails back your fuselage the inferior primer will melt away.
Click to expand...

FYI - I only primed the inside of my aircraft with rattle cans. My painter removed any that showed on the outside and used his primer under the exterior paint. So, don't bother priming the exterior skins, unless you are going to paint the entire plane, regardless of the primer you use.

To Tom's point, do not prime the inside of your tanks with any primer. You don't want to risk it coming off or dissolving into the fuel.
 
leok said:
Organic cartridge respirators are not needed since there is no VOC (organic compounds) in the paint.
Click to expand...

The reason I like to use organic vapor/particulate combination respirators is because when using just particulate respirators, it is very difficult to detect if you have any sort of breakthrough around the mask or through the filter when using just a particulate filter, because none of the "smells" are blocked. With combination filters, you can smell when you are getting breakthrough, because you go from being able to smell nothing (apart from what you had for lunch) to being able to smell the surroundings. This is purely my position on the issue, but I have found it works for me.
Cheers. Tom.
 
Filters

tgmillso said:
The reason I like to use organic vapor/particulate combination respirators is because when using just particulate respirators, it is very difficult to detect if you have any sort of breakthrough around the mask or through the filter when using just a particulate filter, because none of the "smells" are blocked. With combination filters, you can smell when you are getting breakthrough, because you go from being able to smell nothing (apart from what you had for lunch) to being able to smell the surroundings. This is purely my position on the issue, but I have found it works for me.
Cheers. Tom.
Click to expand...

I agree. You can tell immediately if there is breakthrough.
BTW, I installed a dryer vent port in the side of my garage and built a exhaust fan box using a Rule 240 bildge blower to blow the bad stuff outside.
 
Thanks everyone for the tips.

I ended up building a down draft table and painted a couple pieces for test. Down draft table works great, and no odors from the paint. Very happy with the Ekoprime adhesion. Even after 20 min of dry time its good to handle and I was struggling to scratch it intentionally.

Here the process I follow please correct me if I need to deviate.
  1. Clean parts with Ekoclean using a cloth
  2. Rinse with water and let dry
  3. Spray with EkoEtch, scrub with 3M maroon scotch bright pad for 3 min
  4. Rinse/Dry
  5. Prime

Questions:
  1. When scuffing the surface with the etch its not necessary to remove alclad service, rather scuff it to give the primer something to stick too. Correct?
  2. How much is too much or not enough primer? I made a sharpie mark an should be able to see it slightly through the primer. Yes/No?
 
Scuffing

rkiefer2 said:
Thanks everyone for the tips.

I ended up building a down draft table and painted a couple pieces for test. Down draft table works great, and no odors from the paint. Very happy with the Ekoprime adhesion. Even after 20 min of dry time its good to handle and I was struggling to scratch it intentionally.

Here the process I follow please correct me if I need to deviate.
  1. Clean parts with Ekoclean using a cloth
  2. Rinse with water and let dry
  3. Spray with EkoEtch, scrub with 3M maroon scotch bright pad for 3 min
  4. Rinse/Dry
  5. Prime

Questions:
  1. When scuffing the surface with the etch its not necessary to remove alclad service, rather scuff it to give the primer something to stick too. Correct?
  2. How much is too much or not enough primer? I made a sharpie mark an should be able to see it slightly through the primer. Yes/No?
Click to expand...

The scuffing should be only enough to remove the aluminum oxide layer which is very thin. You can tell because the water coats the surface instead of beading. AO forms again within a few hours so shoot primer as soon as practical. You're actually doing two things.
Removing AO because paints don't stick to it.
Giving the primer some fine scratches for mechanical bond.

No idea on using Ekoprime.
 
Last edited:
Took my first crack at Priming, wow what a chore. Below was my Saturday evening.

Any recommendations on scratch or adhesion tests?

-RdcjoquXEKypBAuyKCdsWULlQW5gIuIQllAA5VjfqXX6kxyTxGue1_CIWC2l7cM1cKw4SxUWHUF5cKWmYMOuRJs9Jk9fRrHR7wrxaVjFG_K3zepZxeOG5NpvcnIle-1x3KTU9ohHsYbsRrgSqkSJAJ3InL2PAq_0VRn9l3hzx-wDVfno0kf-94b2_JqFHXtZXriQBXfCgnBsUA-Drk6JZr7ON_TVvaCGYiHgRFWS2TMA22gfjfz4nla_z5XK-rU3ZbuTClR6LMKCctX0vm5CE97OsuNO525JUhSI7a-NWk-FJFDwtUL7C-2b1wMQLx6nz6jnAL52lmxZlSLuy6NSQ6M0NtOmLVW_OpwEkg4KOWIywDfFsmJP8fFd7zBu4qX_2YsnDZoxt3nS8wVreSXBb86cOaKVGihtgVR7qHIyX17Xsn5FxNu3x6w8c5_h8R_BxIvkYimYwvk6LGd2iEqDKnNQCz8DCJt3F6bw-4qfmlIclD45E4_v1c1iHSJpTP6nESczsVZsYOqBQnwHGVmpYG2cvlGjzxqccUCCT9f51WZHiO-rEJokR4SVlxyu3-EoB2L=w1062-h1416-no
 
Tests

Those are pretty.

My favorite tests.
1. Give a test part to Sweetie. If her razor sharp nails can't scratch it, it passes the scratch test.
2. Cut a 6" piece of Gorilla tape. Fold the end over for a handle. Place it on the test piece and rub it down really well. Leave it over night. Rip it off. If the primer/paint is still on the part, it passes. No failures to date.
YMMV
 
Test

Yep - beautiful -- give them a few days to thoroughly cure before you test them. If you followed the mfgs. instructions and let cure for a few days then you should find the primer to be very good. Pri:cool:me on!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top