What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

building as a business

R

rjhecker

Member
Good evening AirForce,
I am a few days away from finishing my RV-10 empennage kit and while building, I have fallen in love with the process just as much as flying itself, and that got me thinking...

Have you or have you heard of a home builder starting a Limited Liability Company building parts for those that either don't have the desire to build again or maybe bought a plane already built and are in need of a section i.e.( rudder, VS, HS) to replace or maybe they got over their heads...

Just thinking out loud about ways to keep building in-between my own sections and further into the future.

Thanks,
Robert
 
Last edited:
Builders assistance is a common business. There are many available. Some of which, like Rick in here....build astonishing aircraft.
 
rjhecker said:
Good evening AirForce,


Have you or have you heard of a home builder starting a Limited Liability Company building parts for those that either don't have the desire to build again or maybe bought a plane already built and are in need of a section i.e.( rudder, VS, HS) to replace or maybe they got over their heads...
Click to expand...

Here's an example of a company just down the road from me:
http://www.2bumsaircraftinc.com/
 
Sub parts are ok.

Bear in mind the 51% rule. The builder has to show that he built at least 51% of the airplane, although it seems there are complete airplanes built for pay, albeit illegally.

Instrument panel assembly and wiring are common assistance features, as are gas tank building and other sub part manufacturing.

Best,
 
pierre smith said:
Bear in mind the 51% rule. The builder has to show that he built at least 51% of the airplane
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong (happens occasionally, I did get married 3 times) but isn't this actually 51% of the TASKS associated with building the airplane? Repetition of a learned task doesn't advance the task count? If you demonstrate that you can properly set a rivet, then someone else can set the next few hundred, etc?
 
pierre smith said:
Bear in mind the 51% rule. The builder has to show that he built at least 51% of the airplane, although it seems there are complete airplanes built for pay, albeit illegally.

Instrument panel assembly and wiring are common assistance features, as are gas tank building and other sub part manufacturing.

Best,
Click to expand...

Just for clarification, the rule states the aircraft must be at least 51% built by amateur builder(s). The number of builders is not an issue, there can be as many as desired as long as they are not a commercial enterprise. The owner of the kit may complete as much or as little as he desires as long as the remainder of the 51% is amateur-built.
 
Sam Buchanan said:
Just for clarification, the rule states the aircraft must be at least 51% built by amateur builder(s). The number of builders is not an issue, there can be as many as desired as long as they are not a commercial enterprise. The owner of the kit may complete as much or as little as he desires as long as the remainder of the 51% is amateur-built.
Click to expand...

To add to this, an amateur builder can use commercial help/support and as long as they are in the presence of the support personnel at all times work is being done, this counts as the amateur built portion.

Larry
 
lr172 said:
To add to this, an amateur builder can use commercial help/support and as long as they are in the presence of the support personnel at all times work is being done, this counts as the amateur built portion.

Larry
Click to expand...

Can you cite the official document that says that Larry? I have never read it anywhere.

No, you can't just set up a nice table and comfy chair in the back of a hangar and watch as someone builds your airplane, then sign the form saying you built it without perjuring yourself.

Yes, the very fast build "two weeks to taxi" programs take advantage of the wording that you must complete 51% of the TASKS listed on the FAA checklist - so when it says "rivet a wing skin", you only have to do one, then you can let the shop do the rest.
 
Ironflight said:
Can you cite the official document that says that Larry? I have never read it anywhere.

No, you can't just set up a nice table and comfy chair in the back of a hangar and watch as someone builds your airplane, then sign the form saying you built it without perjuring yourself.

Yes, the very fast build "two weeks to taxi" programs take advantage of the wording that you must complete 51% of the TASKS listed on the FAA checklist - so when it says "rivet a wing skin", you only have to do one, then you can let the shop do the rest.
Click to expand...

I'll try to find it and post. I bought a partially completed kit and did a lot of research to be sure that I would be in compliance. The regs made logical sense. If you don't really know what your doing, the FAA doesn't want to put regs in place that will keep you from getting the support you need.

EDIT: I am struggling to find it. To be clear, I was not talking about "Commercial Assistance" that the FAA defines as contracting out the work to someone else. This was related to having a professional help you for compensation. The language was clear that the builder must be present at all times, but that it was OK for the work to be performed by the paid assistant. This probably fell under the Educational assistance clause. I'll keep looking.

Larry
 
Last edited:
If you really want to do it for the enjoyment;
Keep your amateur status and build parts provided by others.
Contribute, start, or help with some of the "Teen Flight" programs.
Volunteer locally for builders assistance.

You would qualify as one of the 51%'rs but you would not be the manufacturer.

If you want to get paid for your time..... that takes very careful navigation of the rules and there is no complete escape from liability, regardless of whether you're an LLC or not....

Not a bad idea to research with an attorney on what an LLC is, the protections it provides, and more importantly, what it does not provide. I carry liability insurance on my LLC's, and a general umbrella on me personally. This is an entire discussion on its own that has been had here before.
 
So how about the people that say "I'd like to build my own airplane." They build it 100% themselves, then sell it for whatever made up reason. Then after that, they "regret" selling that plane, so they build another one. Same story, they sell it in the end, and the cycle goes on.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I know (or at least think) people use this method as a good source of income. I'm just wondering what the legalities are on this method. Is it all good?
 
clutch22 said:
So how about the people that say "I'd like to build my own airplane." They build it 100% themselves, then sell it for whatever made up reason. Then after that, they "regret" selling that plane, so they build another one. Same story, they sell it in the end, and the cycle goes on.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I know (or at least think) people use this method as a good source of income. I'm just wondering what the legalities are on this method. Is it all good?
Click to expand...

Absolutely all good. However, I would have to see what your definition of "good source of income" is.
Most airplanes are sold at, or often, below the cost of the parts, let alone any labor.

Keep in mind, they are now the manufacturer of the airplane and could be exposing themselves to more liability as such....
 
clutch22 said:
So how about the people that say "I'd like to build my own airplane." They build it 100% themselves, then sell it for whatever made up reason. Then after that, they "regret" selling that plane, so they build another one. Same story, they sell it in the end, and the cycle goes on.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I know (or at least think) people use this method as a good source of income. I'm just wondering what the legalities are on this method. Is it all good?
Click to expand...

The FARs call for an "intent": building is only allowed for a person's enjoyment or education. "Intent" can be difficult to prove or disprove in court, leaving some to take liberties and the FAA reluctant to prosecute a case they may lose.
 
Thank you all for the comments, life at the fire station has finally calmed down and I was totally excited to read all the responses. I have owned two LLC's and understand the liability and coverage they provide and don't provide. Also, the suggestions of keepin building enjoyable is something to be very aware of :)

I'll be checking with the local FSDO later this week to see where the 51% rule comes into effect in a situation like this. I'm assuming if I invoice the plane owner I would be considered a commercial builder, unless a few cases of beer show up in my shop :)

Thanks again for all of you that responded, I'll keep you updated.

-Rob
 
rjhecker said:
I'll be checking with the local FSDO later this week to see where the 51% rule comes into effect in a situation like this.
Click to expand...

Bwahahahahahaha!

Sorry, couldn't help it. Many would argue that asking five FSDO's will net five different interpretations.

You're a little early anyway. A better plan might involve developing build skills beyond finishing a prepunched cleco-together tail kit, then worry about turning pro.
 
BobTurner said:
The FARs call for an "intent": building is only allowed for a person's enjoyment or education. "Intent" can be difficult to prove or disprove in court, leaving some to take liberties and the FAA reluctant to prosecute a case they may lose.
Click to expand...

Neither enjoyment nor education preclude building and selling serially ... ? I enjoy building! So I build, sell, and do it again ... for enjoyment!

Same with education ... I learned, I sell, I want to learn some more!
 
I'm sure many of us have considered doing this but at least from my perspective there is no money in it at all. If you consider your time is of some value its even worse.

When an RV is sold, a good day is if you get back your investment in material/parts, the labor value is simply the love of building one of these wonderful machines.

Builder assist is an option if you have the right shop, tools and experience but the customer will expect a top notch experienced builder not to mention this market is pretty saturated.

My 2 cents
 
I wish I could outsource just the deburring and priming. Then I could get to the fun parts (systems and avionics) faster. I think I'm weird, though--most people seem to like the assembly/fabrication work and hate systems and avionics.
 
rmartingt said:
I wish I could outsource just the deburring and priming. Then I could get to the fun parts (systems and avionics) faster. I think I'm weird, though--most people seem to like the assembly/fabrication work and hate systems and avionics.
Click to expand...

True - just look at how many kits get sold at the FWF stage. I think part of it also is that people are good at following directions, but when the directions disappear (panel and engine) and they have to figure it out themselves, the task appears overwhelming and they throw their hands up. For me, the panel and engine were the most fun, but I know I'm a bit of an odd duck.
 
airguy said:
True - just look at how many kits get sold at the FWF stage. I think part of it also is that people are good at following directions, but when the directions disappear (panel and engine) and they have to figure it out themselves, the task appears overwhelming and they throw their hands up. ...
.
Click to expand...

It's also the stage when many more Aviation Monetary Units (AMU = $1,000) must be added into the mix to complete the plane.

Perhaps $$$ get in the way leading to some of these sales?
 
az_gila said:
airguy said:
True - just look at how many kits get sold at the FWF stage. I think part of it also is that people are good at following directions, but when the directions disappear (panel and engine) and they have to figure it out themselves, the task appears overwhelming and they throw their hands up. For me, the panel and engine were the most fun, but I know I'm a bit of an odd duck.
Click to expand...
It's also the stage when many more Aviation Monetary Units (AMU = $1,000) must be added into the mix to complete the plane.

Perhaps $$$ get in the way leading to some of these sales?
Click to expand...

That could be part of it. But then too, look at how many people are willing to shell out for complete pre-wired panels, pre-made harnesses, etc.

I think the money is also why so many airplanes get sold shortly after completion--people can manage to afford to build the airplane, but they can't afford the sustaining costs (insurance, hangar, maintenance, gas).
 
Last edited:
So I talked with the Local FSDO and as predicted.... there was a lot of talking but no committing answer :)

Thanks for entertaining my Question everyone. Let me repeat, I have always been impressed with the support of this online community and the honest answers i have noticed.


Always looking forward to the next adventure.

-Robert
 
DanH said:
Bwahahahahahaha!

Sorry, couldn't help it. Many would argue that asking five FSDO's will net five different interpretations.

You're a little early anyway. A better plan might involve developing build skills beyond finishing a prepunched cleco-together tail kit, then worry about turning pro.
Click to expand...
ROFLAO! No TRUER words have been spoken!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top