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diesel firewall forward???

airguy

Unrepentant fanboy
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DeltaHawk's latest addition to their website (noted for its sparcity of information and late updates) is a link to someone purportedly selling (or preparing to sell) a firewall forward kit for the DH engine on RV-7's. The site http://dieselfirewallforward.com/ does not have any content beyond a recommended fuel pump and bracket, and a promise to post more information as the build progresses, and the last update was 5-28-2007.

First question - why would DH post a link on their website for a guy who is supposedly assembling a FWF kit for their engine, but has not updated the site in more than 18 months, and

Second question - is there anyone here who knows who this builder might be? There is no way to contact the owner of the page, nor is his name given.
 
I've contacted him a couple of times. Basically, he's waiitng on an engine from DH to be able to do something with. I'll dig up the emails later today:)
 
Diesel firewall Forward - Wilksch WAM-120

We've got a little further on that this guy....

Left Side (Turbo side)
FirstTaxi028.jpg


Right Side (Supercharger & Oil cooler)
FirstTaxi027.jpg


Cowl
FirstTaxi019.jpg


Out on the Runway
FirstTaxi008.jpg


We also have some video of the early taxi trials on youtube - search G-CETP.

Our parts bin is now empty and we're busy "finishing up". We hope to have all the paperwork complete to apply for our "permit to test fly" by the end of the Christmas period, so with any luck we should be flying in February.
 
already flying?

I've heard that there is a WAM-powered RV-9 already flying somewhere in the States
 
Thats a very nice looking installation. I especially like those blue hoses-- are they one piece?

Having just reviewed the specs for the WAM-120, it looks like it will offer similar performance to an O-290. I look forward to hearing about your flight test results..

Good luck,
-DC
 
Pretty cool. :cool:

Is there still support from Wilsch for the engines? What is the latest on that front and on future engine supply?
 
I've heard that there is a WAM-powered RV-9 already flying somewhere in the States
Andy,

Kurt Goodfellow has built and flown his WAM powered RV-9 slider (Yep, another tail dragger -9!), it came in at 974 lbs empty.

He is currently sorting out some minor issues, which is to be expected with any new engine installation.

Kurt put his intercooler between the engine and firewall, just under the top cowl. He is using a large NACA duct to get air to it and a scoop under the inverted head to provide cooling air to the radiator. A unique installation and one that I hope works well.

My only question when I see this engine is the Turbo seems like it would fit better if it were turned around, fore and aft. Just a very minor nit on my part.
 
Yes, Wilksch are still supporting the engine. The company is still active - mostly in development mode, but producing a few engines. They're currently working on a "bored out" version of the 3-cylinder engine which will produce around 140hp and a 100hp version for the light-sport market.

The blue hoses are one piece - the engine comes withe the "chin mounted" cooling pack installed and plumbed to it.

I'm not sure about flying 9's in the States, but there are four 9's flying in the UK with the Wilksch engine. There is also a Murphy, a Jodel a Pietenpol and a Thorp T211.
 
They're currently working on a "bored out" version of the 3-cylinder engine which will produce around 140hp.

Now THAT is interesting - that puts it much more in the correct horsepower ballpark for a 9/9A for most builders - especially considering it's high-altitude power retention. I might be willing to overlook slightly anemic climb rates in exchange for turbocharged MAP at cruise altitude.
 
First question - why would DH post a link on their website for a guy who is supposedly assembling a FWF kit for their engine, but has not updated the site in more than 18 months, and

Second question - is there anyone here who knows who this builder might be? There is no way to contact the owner of the page, nor is his name given.
His name is Ted Reed. I got his email off his site a while ago, maybe he's pulled it down for reasons listed below, but this is the last email I got from him in late September:

Kelly,

I still don't have an engine so I have not make much progress since your last email. I have moved my company from Ohio to Texas and plan to build a new hangar in the next few months. Also, my wife has had major back surgery and has needed a lot of help just getting to and form the bathroom so I have not kept up with the emails and am just now getting around to answering all that I have received over the last couple of months. I did not go to Oshkosh but Deltahawk was there and had an engine and airplane on display. Progress is slow but still moving forward but I am still waiting for a delivery date for my engine. My airplane (RV-7A) is mostly completed with the exception of the firewall forward stuff and paint. I am still optismistic that an engine will be coming my way soon. Deltahawk is making good progress on the FAA certification process but they have not given me a firm delivery date yet. I wish I had more exciting news for you but this is where things are as of today.

Ted
If he has pulled his email from his site, I don't feel I should post it publically, but if someone is REALLY interested in information from him, send me a PM and I'll give you his email:)
 
Diesel WAM FWF Pictures...

Dave:
Great work on your insallation and thanks for posting the pictures! In the shot showing the pilot's side of the engine your NACA scoop appears to have a flapper valve behind it...did you install some sort of butterfly diverter to take cold air to a core heater for cabin heat by chance? If so do you have a shot of how you plumbed that and ducted air to the cabin? I am half way through my cabin heat hook up and always looking for other ideas on how best to do that...

Doug Lomheim
RV-9A 90116, Mazda 13B, FWF, canopy, electrical
 
In the shot showing the pilot's side of the engine your NACA scoop appears to have a flapper valve behind it...did you install some sort of butterfly diverter to take cold air to a core heater for cabin heat by chance?

There's no flapper valve on the NACA scoop - all that's behind that scoop is the oil cooler... The cabin heat comes off the back of the oil cooler and is then installed just like an exhaust heater would be. Wilksch don't recommend heating off the exhaust because the engine controller completely cuts off the fuel when the engine is windmilling at idle, so in a long descent the exhaust will go completely cold, wheras the oil cooler will stay warm as long as there's heat in the block.

Dave
 
Oil Cooler, etc.

There's no flapper valve on the NACA scoop - all that's behind that scoop is the oil cooler...

Dave

Dave; my question was regarding the cabin air scoop on the "pilot" side of the fuselage just behind the firewall. In your picture it appears that there might be a flapper valve at the back of the plastic NACA vent but it also could just be something else that just happened to be hanging at the back of it when photo was taken...

I copy that you don't have any hot water in the cabin, but instead pull some hot air off your oil cooler to provide cabin heat...

Blue Skies to you as you roll into your testing phase!

dl
 
Last edited:
Dave; my question was regarding the cabin air scoop on the "pilot" side of the fuselage just behind the firewall. In your picture it appears that there might be a flapper valve at the back of the plastic NACA vent but it also could just be something else that just happened to be hanging at the back of it when photo was taken...
dl


That's just the regular Vans cabin air scoop - I think the fuse tray is hanging down behind it.

Dave
 
DeltaHawk Engine

Do you have the contact information for Ted Reed? His web site does not appear able to send him questions.

I want to pick his brains on fuel tank venting for the DH Engine and my RV-8.
 
Is Deltahawk still kicking? Anything new on them at Osh or anywhere else? Just curious...

Bob
 
Deltahawk diesel

I spoke on the phone with a fellow named Stoney from DH a few weeks ago. He says they're still in business and moving forward.

I was inquiring about an engine for Sportsman 2+2. Seems like a perfect airframe for the DH engine. I'd love to develop the FWF package for that plane.

Stoney said he would get in touch with me as soon as engines are available. I have no idea when that will be.

I have learned a lot about engine development since I built my RV9 / WAM 120 diesel. It's no easy thing to develop a new engine and bring it to market. I sure hope they succeed.

Kurt
 
The folks from DeltaHawk gave a presentation to our EAA chapter meeting back in August. It was a very good presentation and it seems like they are on track with a solid Diesel engine. They are targeting the Certified market, so they have little focus on us RV guys. Although, they do have an engine that would work on our installation. The best I could figure from the presentation was that it would cost around 60k for a complete FWF installation. That seems high, however I believe you would get around 4 gph. RTBO is an issue as it's is likely that the engine could only be overhauled 1 time. I think their main focus will be the commercial operators of mid size twins. The fuel savings for such operations could justify the cost of the installation.
 
... The best I could figure from the presentation was that it would cost around 60k for a complete FWF installation. That seems high, however I believe you would get around 4 gph. RTBO is an issue as it's is likely that the engine could only be overhauled 1 time?
This is what I don?t get about alternate engine developers. If you are trying to introduce something new to the market, something that has no operational history (sorry, R&D time doesn?t count), why price it so high?

It would make sense to me to sell the first batch of engines at an artificially low price to entice people to give it a try, work out their bugs, and develop a reputation. Once the engine has some operational experience in the hands of pilots, then raise the price to whatever the market will bear.

The Finance majors among us might look at purchasing a DH engine in a different way:
Comparing a $60K DH FwF package to a ~$30K O-320 FwF package (engine, engine mount, baffles, cowling, etc.) is interesting because you could fly the 8 GPH Lycoming for 1533 hours before you exceed the acquisition cost of the DH engine. That?s based on $4.88 / gallon for 100LL, which is the national average when I wrote this post and a guesstimate on for the Lycoming FwF package ($24K for a new Lycoming engine, engine mount, cowling, etc.).
 
The Finance majors among us might look at purchasing a DH engine in a different way:
Comparing a $60K DH FwF package to a ~$30K O-320 FwF package (engine, engine mount, baffles, cowling, etc.) is interesting because you could fly the 8 GPH Lycoming for 1533 hours before you exceed the acquisition cost of the DH engine. That?s based on $4.88 / gallon for 100LL, which is the national average when I wrote this post and a guesstimate on for the Lycoming FwF package ($24K for a new Lycoming engine, engine mount, cowling, etc.).

Sshhhh - you're using logic again - what have we told you about that?
 
Sshhhh - you're using logic again - what have we told you about that?

Wait until you see the numbers I put together showing it takes 10 years to justify the price of a hybred and that assumes you never replace the batteries.
 
This is what I don?t get about alternate engine developers. If you are trying to introduce something new to the market, something that has no operational history (sorry, R&D time doesn?t count), why price it so high?

It would make sense to me to sell the first batch of engines at an artificially low price to entice people to give it a try, work out their bugs, and develop a reputation. Once the engine has some operational experience in the hands of pilots, then raise the price to whatever the market will bear.

The Finance majors among us might look at purchasing a DH engine in a different way:
Comparing a $60K DH FwF package to a ~$30K O-320 FwF package (engine, engine mount, baffles, cowling, etc.) is interesting because you could fly the 8 GPH Lycoming for 1533 hours before you exceed the acquisition cost of the DH engine. That?s based on $4.88 / gallon for 100LL, which is the national average when I wrote this post and a guesstimate on for the Lycoming FwF package ($24K for a new Lycoming engine, engine mount, cowling, etc.).

I spoke at length with the Deltahawk folks at Oshkosh about this very subject. After much consideration, I actually agree with their approach.

Question: What is the biggest challenge facing the entry of a new engine to the market?
Answer: Adverse publicity.

Look at what happened to Thielert - and that engine was far more expensive than Deltahawk.

So, as I understand it the rationale is that they will only do a COMPLETE INSTALLATION - most likely including a new cowl. That way they can model and control factors such as cooling and plumbing which might cause a failure that gets blamed on THEIR engine.

I have to say that I am 100% in agreement with this decision given that they hope to sell to the certified market. To risk reputation for the dubious benefit of getting a few engines "out there" in our experimental market does not make financial sense.
 
You have to admit, the idea of a diesel really sounds appealing. Lower RPM, high torque, better economy...It's just not for everyone. One of the big negatives is the availability of Jet A at smaller airports and a 4000 hours service life. Not too mention the $60k price tag.
 
...I have to say that I am 100% in agreement with this decision given that they hope to sell to the certified market. To risk reputation for the dubious benefit of getting a few engines "out there" in our experimental market does not make financial sense.

While I used the RV for comparison, I still think they need to offer financial incentives, like LOW cost, to the certified guys to get them to switch over.

Say you take a $100K C-172 and put this $60K engine on it. Until they prove this engine, that C-172 just became a $70K airplane. ($100K less the $30K needed to put a Lycoming back on the front.) That does not make economic sense. In addition, you are going to have a difficult time finding and A&P/IA who knows how to work on that engine.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a diesel aircraft (or auto or truck) engine but they have got to make it worth the risk an owner/operators will incur to install one. That risk is primarily financial; acquisition cost, operational cost (fuel, parts, etc.), overhaul cost, resale cost, and the potential cost of an inflight failure with an unproven engine.

Remember the Rotax six cylinder aircraft engine? I met the test pilot who flew behind it. He told me that while they had done a bunch of bench testing on that engine he couldn’t get more than a fist full of hours out of one in the air. Eventually Rotax gave up. The same could happen to this or any other new aircraft engine. That’s why it is so important to see a significant number of hours in service before buying. If this were my plane, I would be paying all those fixed costs for the thing to sit in the hangar while the manufacture figured out why they weren’t lasting in flight. Not something you want your customers to deal with.
 
You have to admit, the idea of a diesel really sounds appealing. Lower RPM, high torque, better economy...It's just not for everyone. One of the big negatives is the availability of Jet A at smaller airports and a 4000 hours service life. Not too mention the $60k price tag.

I'm sitting in a hotel room in San Diego right now, after having flown my diesel RV9 from Las Vegas this morning. took me 1.4 hours, burned 7 gal Jet A to get here. The hobbs is just about ready to turn 200 hours, and I still love this plane / engine combo. I have flown it all over the Western US, and there have been a few airports without Jet A, but it has never put me in a bind, since I'm carrying 6 hours of fuel + reserve. A few weeks ago I flew non-stop from Boulder City, NV to Eugene, OR. I called ahead to make sure they had Jet A at the small airport (Cresswell) that I landed at. No problem. I burned 22 gals to get there (740 mi). If they hadn't had the Jet A there, I would have flown into Eugene instead.

I agree that the cost is high for the DH, but when you consider that you're getting a complete FWF, including cowling, hyd CS prop, everything, it's not so bad. To me, it's worth it when I consider the advantages, especially with the future of avgas so uncertain.

And don't forget the added safety the diesel provides - the fuel is much harder to ignite. It may be a false sense of security, but I think about this a lot when I read about planes being destroyed by fire after an accident.

As I've said before, I wish DH success. If they actually start producing an engine, I'll be one of the first to buy one!
Kurt
 
Remember the Rotax six cylinder aircraft engine? I met the test pilot who flew behind it. He told me that while they had done a bunch of bench testing on that engine he couldn?t get more than a fist full of hours out of one in the air. Eventually Rotax gave up. The same could happen to this or any other new aircraft engine. That?s why it is so important to see a significant number of hours in service before buying. If this were my plane, I would be paying all those fixed costs for the thing to sit in the hangar while the manufacture figured out why they weren?t lasting in flight. Not something you want your customers to deal with.

Yeah - I never understood why Rotax doesn't just make a six cylinder 914 that puts out 150hp continuously and 172.5hp max takeoff? Not the 200 they were shooting for, but with the lighter weight and the turbo seems like it would actually be a better engine than an IO-360.
 
Hi

did you encounter any problems or made some modification to the fuel system (Tank sealant, rubber seals etc)?

Do you have a high return fuel (like some common rail engines) and had to incorporate fuel return lines in to each tank?

How do you cope with cold fuel in the diesel engine?

Do you operate diesel or jet?


Thomas

We've got a little further on that this guy....

Left Side (Turbo side)

Right Side (Supercharger & Oil cooler)

Cowl

Out on the Runway

We also have some video of the early taxi trials on youtube - search G-CETP.

Our parts bin is now empty and we're busy "finishing up". We hope to have all the paperwork complete to apply for our "permit to test fly" by the end of the Christmas period, so with any luck we should be flying in February.
 
Hi

did you encounter any problems or made some modification to the fuel system (Tank sealant, rubber seals etc)?

Do you have a high return fuel (like some common rail engines) and had to incorporate fuel return lines in to each tank?

How do you cope with cold fuel in the diesel engine?

Do you operate diesel or jet?


Thomas

We checked that the fuel cap seals, tank sealant & fuel hoses were compatible. No problems there. We did fit capacitance sensors in the tanks because we don't through-vent them so resistance gauges give a small explosion risk.

We have a fuel return line into the tanks plumbed via a double andair valve.

Cold fuel has never been a problem, mind you in the UK it's never seriously cold - I don't think we've flow with surface temps much below zero centigrade.

We operate with jet A1. In the UK it's cheaper than road diesel. We keep a few 200 litre barrels in the hangar. Availability is pretty good in the UK and when you burn 4 gallons / hour refueling isn't such a pressing concern.

Dave
 
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