Insulation Question - RV-10 Quick Build

I?m going to install some Soundex installation and now is the time.

No problem insulating the aft side of the firewall as I?ve removed the foreskin to provide access to the panel and electrical wiring. The firewall is accessible. No problem also with the forward fuselage sides.

However, while insulating below the forward cabin floor panels (F-1050 L&R) would be desirable, I can see no way this is possible on a QB given those panels were installed at the factory. Those panels have flanges on three sides, have a gear weldment brace on them and are anchored on the front to the firewall. I can see no way to insulate this area except to lay some insulation on top of these panels and beneath the carpet. Comments? Is there another way?

Would appreciate comments or ideas from anyone that has installed any kind of insulation in the forward fuselage area of a RV-10 to include the firewall, side panels, and floor panels.

If you?ve used the Soundex product would appreciate those comments as well.

Thanks, Jerry

Questions for you to consider.

bomber_JB said:

I?m going to install some Soundex installation and now is the time.

No problem insulating the aft side of the firewall

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Why are you putting in insulation???

Is the stuff you plan to put on the firewall totally fireproof, and does it give off fumes when heated like would be expirenced if there was an engine fire??

Have you read Dan Hortons posts on firewall insulation?

Soundex black foam "firewall insulation" on the cabin side of a stainless sheet subjected to the FAA standard fire on the forward side.

Not recommended.

D'Oh...

That's gonna leave a mark!

I have done this.

After carefully reading all the fire posts from many, including Dan, I decided to add some fire proof ceramic insulation good for 2000-deg under the floor of the -10. Of course I didn?t decide to do this until after the floor and gear mounts were in.

Just follow the directions in reverse. Undo the gear mounts and drill out all the rivets.

I also made some firewall skins and added the same insulation between the firewall and the skins.

I used some firewall 2000 caulk very sparingly to just spot tack the insulation onto the bottom of the floor. I used some heavy weight aluminum foil to keep the insulation clean over the years. And them just put the floor back on sandwiching the insulation between the floor and ribs.

Goal was to give me a few more min of not burning my feet if there were an engine fire that melted the bottom fuselage skin. This is not for sound.

I did do a test using a mock-up. And I felt it was worth the effort. But it was a days worth of work.

Also tested the black rubber foam and immediately removed every single piece of that flammable smoky ****.

Caulk was from ACS, insulation was from McMaster, heavy aluminum foil was amazon.

Much better to create an external belly overlay, rather than insulating inside the belly skin.

Insulating inside the aluminum skin increases the likelihood of melting the skin.

I too insulated the firewall and floor with 2 layers of fiberfrax. The floor boards can be removed by cutting a small panel out of the upper floor panel, then it can be removed without removing the gear leg mount. Fabricate a doubler and re attach cutout. If I had to do all over again I would have insulated the firewall on the engine side using Dan?s method, or purchased an equivalent firewall blanket

bomber_JB said:

I?m going to install some Soundex installation and now is the time.

Click to expand...

This is not an attempt to suggest to you what to do, but thought it was worth sharing what changed my mind about adding any sound insulation.

1st year of build went to OSHKOSH and attended one of the workshops being held by a guy that specializes in aircraft interiors. When asked about sound dampening insulation, he was very clear with his answer..."you can spend all the money available for the best sound insulation possible and you'll never get the sound below OSHA standards that require hearing protection (85db)." His advice, get good noise cancelling headphones.

His experience and advice led me away from the effort and expense.

DanH said:

Much better to create an external belly overlay, rather than insulating inside the belly skin....

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That's exactly what I did on my RV-3B. I used titanium for the overlay. It is .020 thick and is grade 2, which I got from MacMaster. This shows the titanium overlay just before I riveted it on. There's 1/16" Fiberfrax between that and the existing cabin floor. Where the rivets are, I used small pieces of .063 aluminum as spacers, cutting holes in the Fiberfrax for that.



I used .020 and grade 2. It works much like a stiffer, harder sort of aluminum, and is slightly stronger than aluminum. I rather enjoyed working with it. The thickness was arrived at by checking FAR Part 23 for certified airplanes, where .016 was approved as a firewall material. .020 was as close as I could get at a reasonable price.

Dave

rvanstory said:

This is not an attempt to suggest to you what to do, but thought it was worth sharing what changed my mind about adding any sound insulation.

1st year of build went to OSHKOSH and attended one of the workshops being held by a guy that specializes in aircraft interiors. When asked about sound dampening insulation, he was very clear with his answer..."you can spend all the money available for the best sound insulation possible and you'll never get the sound below OSHA standards that require hearing protection (85db)." His advice, get good noise cancelling headphones.

His experience and advice led me away from the effort and expense.

Click to expand...

This. Insulation for fire protection is one thing, sound insulation is a waste of time and money IMO. You’re still gonna need good headsets no matter what you do— might as well spend the money on the headset.

CORROSION NO Foam Please !

No Foam please.

I'm working on a RV14A that is only 147 hrs old and the builder used foam extensively through the belly and firewall of the aircraft. The aircraft had a landing incident and the repair requires the removal of all the belly skins.

There is corrosion everywhere next to and under all the seems of the belly.
The aircraft was not alodined or primed during construction.

It is very fortunate this aircraft had a landing incident as I would not like to see this aircraft in 5 years if it was left as is.

We put all the removed foam in a pile and it burns just as described by Dan's photo in post #3 with thick black smoke!

I'll be doing a write up soon but here are two photos from the repair so far.

Rear belly skin


attaching ribs

Dustyone said:

There is corrosion everywhere next to and under all the seems of the belly.

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Why would the foam have caused corrosion between the ribs and belly? That doesn't make sense to me.

Hi Kyle,
I had thought that it trapped in moisture/humidity in between the foam. The foam is a closed cell so it does not hold moisture but it also did not allow it to breath if moisture got in.
Other parts of this non primed aircraft have very minimal corrosion but everywhere the foam is covering structure, there is corrosion.
There is no corrosion underneath the foam where it has been glued down, only on the joins.

Just reporting what I have observed so far.

QB-10 and front seat floorboards -been there

Hello,

I am not adding sound insulation. I feel my money will be better spent, and lighter, on good headsets.

I did add a fireproof belly shield, and I will be adding Dan's recommended firewall shield. It is far better to keep the heat and fire out in the first place than trying to control it once it is inside.

I did take all the floorboards out and gear towers. Yes it was a major pain, but I needed to for inspection of the QB kit that was a "barn find". I wanted to make sure there was no corrosion due to little critters nesting in there.

If you want a write-up of how I did the belly shield, look at my website or send me an email and we can talk. I do think it will provide some sound insulation, but I was really only concerned with fire.

Dustyone said:

Hi Kyle,
I had thought that it trapped in moisture/humidity in between the foam. The foam is a closed cell so it does not hold moisture but it also did not allow it to breath if moisture got in.
Other parts of this non primed aircraft have very minimal corrosion but everywhere the foam is covering structure, there is corrosion.
There is no corrosion underneath the foam where it has been glued down, only on the joins.

Just reporting what I have observed so far.

Click to expand...

Very similar to what I saw on a couple of uninstalled sheets on my 6 kit (15 years old). The PO left the blue plastic on the sheets and there was corrosion where the plastic lifted slightly at the edges and corners, allowing moisture to fester instead of evaporate. Sheets without plastic, stored in the same place for the same time, had no corrosion. Also no corrosion where blue sheet was firmly stuck to al. You want to create environments that allow moisture to easily evaporate. Lay a moist but not wet rag on a sheet of steel. Then pour some water directly on another part of the steel. Next day, lift the rag and notice the difference. Same concept here, except dealing with water vapor vs liquid. Every hot to cold cycle can create condensation and air flow rapidly speeds the evaporation of that liquid. Lack of air circulation allows the water to stay for a long time.

Larry

Thank you!, Thank you!, Thank you!

Based on the responses I will not be installing the SoundEx product and I'm only going to consider thermal insulation forward of the firewall. I'll contact contributors to this post individually as I like some of the ideas for "lay in" products that don't require removing factory installed panels.

You folks have saved me a lot of money, effort, and possibly headaches later.

Jerry

Aside from the corrosion and fire issues, a good ANR headset will overcome the ambient noise and RV makes, so, as you said, avoid the whole deal and save a lot.