Advice/Information on purchase

The gentleman builder of this plane has passed away just prior to the completion of the plane. I'm attempting to purchase from the widow however there are some major complications.

1. no engine logs
2. No builders logs (may be able to provide a few pictures of build process.
3. Has registered N# but has not received approval or airworthiness cert.
4. is already 95% complete.

Is there a way, with the help of an A&P to get an airworthiness certificate for this plane legally?

Just looking for advice on whether this plane can ever fly legally, not on whether it's a good idea to buy in general.

Thanks in advance.

I don?t see any major complications. First is to determine if the work done to date is ?satisfactory ?. The engine checked to determine condition. Then make a decision if the project has value and if you want to proceed.
Logbooks....lost all the time...start a new one ..big thing is...compliance with ADs, SBs. Everything must be refreshed.
Others will give blessings before you fly.
I suggest a speaking with A/P, IA, DAR, and a Aircraft Registration agency in OK city to guide you thru all the steps. Transfer of ownership from an estate requires a Midas touch and a little bit more paperwork.
Piece of Cake.

R

Proving the 51% build shouldn?t be a problem, especially if it wasn?t a QB kit. Even if it was, you should be able to document builder participation based on normal Vans supplied documentation. You can get that from Vans after you have transferred ownership via a copy of the Bill of Sale, using the builder number. They should be able to show you document information on kit purchases and dates. You may not be able to get a repairman?s certificate, but even that may be possible. It would be helpful if you had pictures of the build for the DAR inspection. I think you should check with whoever you plan to use for that to get his/her input. Also consult with EAA to get some advice. RV aircraft are well known EAB airplanes, and as long as it wasn?t professionally built, you shouldn?t have a problem.

How do you prove compliance with the 51% amateur-built rule with no builder's log?

Sam Buchanan said:

How do you prove compliance with the 51% amateur-built rule with no builder's log?

Click to expand...

I would imagine that an affidavit from the wife would be adequate for the FAA inspector, assuming the deceased did all of the work. But Sam is right that your docs from Van's will not help in proving the 51% amateur built requirement. I have bought two used kits and the FAA was ok with my records/statements, along with affidavits from the first builder, stating they did all of the work while in their possession.

Larry

lr172 said:

I would imagine that an affidavit from the wife would be adequate for the FAA inspector, assuming the deceased did all of the work.

Larry

Click to expand...

You really think so?

The Op did not state any desire to acquire a repairman cert. Why are we concern about the 51% rule? His concern was with Airworthiness.

R

Discus2b said:

The Op did not state any desire to acquire a repairman cert. Why are we concern about the 51% rule? His concern was with Airworthiness.

R

Click to expand...

Because the airplane has to be 51% amateur built in order to receive an airworthiness cert. If he doesn't have the build logs from the estate, then he can only speak for himself, not for the 95% of the work that was already done.

"What type of airworthiness certificate is my amateur-built aircraft eligible for?
An amateur-built aircraft is eligible for a special airworthiness certificate in the experimental category for the purpose of operating amateur-built aircraft. You must provide evidence to the FAA that the "major portion" (more than fifty percent) of the aircraft was fabricated and assembled by an individual or group of individuals; that the project is for educational and recreational purposes; and that the aircraft complies with acceptable aeronautical standards and practices."

The OP doesn't have to build it all himself, but come AW time, he needs to have some sort of paper trail that proves 51% of his shine new airplane was in fact built by amateurs.


OP- I haven't personally experienced this scenario, but you cant possibly be the first person this has happened to. If it were me, I'd contact EAA for advice, followed up by a talk with the DAR or FAA office you plan to use when the time comes to hang a ticket on your beast. Their opinion regarding what is an acceptable method of crating a paper trail is really the only one that matters.

You mentioned using the services of an A&P. It's probably not a bad idea from a standpoint of verifying the airworthiness of the work already completed, but I don't see how it would help you paperwork wise.

Nah, don?t think so...

You post ?individual ? not ?amateur individual ?.
Plus, your resume reads A/P. Are you not allowed to build?

One must go back and interpret the Regulations.
Amateur vs. Commercial.

What is established practice.

Whole made from pieces. Compliance. Certification

Vans Aircraft Corporation handled the engineering part.
Individuals handle the Airworthy part.
US Government handles the Compliance part.

I can build from wrecks if I want to. Their CofA have been surrendered.
Start from scratch. The OP doesn?t ask about getting a Repairman C.


R

Thanks for the answers so far.

I doubt I could be made eligible for the airman cert since the build is so far along but I would certainly apply for that if it were possible.

I do have access to a gentleman that helped with a lot of the build. Perhaps he would be willing to make an affidavit but I'm still concerned about the builders log which is specifically named in the FAA information.

I have an appointment to talk with an FAA manager Monday so hopefully have a more information then.

I agree with you in concept, and my use of teh word amateur was a poor choice. I believe that the potential sticking point would be documenting that the 95% complete airplane he is buying was built by an individual or group of individuals for educational and recreational purposes. That's what he has to supply evidence of.

When I was educating myself about buying a used kit, I got feedback that the traditional way this happens is by making sure you get the previous owner's build log i.e. original guy's build log + my build log = evidence that the majority of the finished product was built by somebody who's not a for profit underground airplane factory.

Maybe the Feds will accept an affidavit from the widow instead of a build log, maybe the won't. This has undoubtedly happened before, so there has to be a process for it, but until somebody steps up and says that they know definitively what it is, we're all just guessing. Several people have suggested contacting EAA to get pointed in the right direction, and it seems to me that's a logical next step.

You mentioned my A&P, so I'd like two clarify that point; In this case, having an A&P is completely irrelevant. I can certainly build an airplane "for educational and recreational purposes". What I can't do is get together with a few retired Wichita buddies, start cranking out airplanes for sale. It might work once or twice, but sooner or later, I would likely have to lawyer up and try to defend my interpretation of what constitutes "recreation."

This is all just my opinion, so maybe I'm completely off base, but I've seen brand new factory airplanes get hung up in the certification process because somebody had misfiled some random piece of paper. It's worth getting an official position on how to proceed before writing the check.

edit- OP I'm sure that here's a way to do this & it sounds like your on the right track by getting it from the horses mouth. Please let us know what the solution is when you get it.

I agree with everything you say.
Interesting is how the Experimental Aircraft Industry has evolved and how many have their part to play in this fascinating business that roots its beginnings in a desire by many to circumvent the legal profession...lawyers.
The FAA mandate is to protect the public from nuckleheads crashing in their front yards. If everyone upholds their responsibility and not attract FAA attention, they will allow the Experimental industry to humm along.
People being allowed to do what they love with the right amount of checks and balances being observed by the watchers so the hammers can deal with the bigger issues.
If it can be inspected, confirmed, validated, and a watcher will put his reputation on it...I believe the FAA will bless it. As it should be, proven success.

R