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ADS-B simplest compliance....??

David-aviator

Well Known Member
...this government mandate is coming and need to begin to the process to comply.

Have GRT Sport EFIS and Becker mode S transponder. What do I need to get this aircraft in compliance?

Thanks.
 
Dave,
We can talk about it next week when we go to lunch. Which Becker transponder do you currently have?
Bill
 
The Becker you have is a class 2 unit (low power) which is not approved for ADS-B out (class 1 is required).
 
...this government mandate is coming and need to begin to the process to comply.

Have GRT Sport EFIS and Becker mode S transponder. What do I need to get this aircraft in compliance?

Thanks.

Two paths are available to you. Neither has anything to do specifically with the GRT Sport. (I have three Sx's in my RV6).

UAT - a dedicated box/system that does everything (e.g. NavWorX)

1090ES transponder - Garmin (330ES) or Trig (TT-31 or TT-22).
++PLUS++
Certified position source - e.g. Garmin 430W, Garmin 650, newly released position source GPS from Garmin, or AviDyne (I think).

James
 
Two paths are available to you. Neither has anything to do specifically with the GRT Sport. (I have three Sx's in my RV6).

UAT - a dedicated box/system that does everything (e.g. NavWorX)

1090ES transponder - Garmin (330ES) or Trig (TT-31 or TT-22).
++PLUS++
Certified position source - e.g. Garmin 430W, Garmin 650, newly released position source GPS from Garmin, or AviDyne (I think).

James

If your Sport is an HX then it will remotely operate a Trig 22 box without the control head.
Only ADSB-out is required, but the -in is relatively inexpensive. Many UAT boxes include "in" (but not all); with the transponder route you need a separate "in" box. Be sure to get one that will display on the GRT.

There are several gps position sources that are less expensive than the full-up navigators (but not cheap).
 
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I think you will also need a "certified" GPS. The one in the Sport is not certified.
 
The compliance date as of now is January 1 2020.
Without ADSB-out you are excluded from class B and the mode C veil around B, class C, and you must remain below 10,000' MSL (with an exception when within some height (2500' AGL??) of the terrain over the mountains).
 
The compliance date as of now is January 1 2020.
Without ADSB-out you are excluded from class B and the mode C veil around B, class C, and you must remain below 10,000' MSL (with an exception when within some height (2500' AGL??) of the terrain over the mountains).

Just over 4 years....thanks.
 
If seeing traffic now is important to you, then having the out part is required.
 
If seeing traffic now is important to you, then having the out part is required.

And if the transponder does not meet ADS-B out requirements the FAA sends a letter to cease and desist.
I have quiry in to Becker on this unit, seems to me it would work just fine below 15,000 feet.
 
The Becker you have is a class 2 unit (low power) which is not approved for ADS-B out (class 1 is required).

Walt,

Are you sure about this?

From Becker data sheet:

The BXP6401-2-(01) is a compact and lightweight single block Mode-S transponder. It is certified according to ETSO-2C112a and is suited for VFR and IFR operations up to 15.000 feet.
The transponder is equipped with extended squitter and SI code function and it provides an interface to the central aircraft data system. It allows ELS, supports EHS, as well as ADS-B via extended squitter.

I have FAA AC 20-165A (ADS-B Out requirements). There is no reference in this document titled class 1 or 2 transponders.

Seems to me Becker designed this unit for ops below 15,000 feet, including ADS-B. Why would it have an extended squitter if this were not true?
 
FAR 91.227:

(2) Aircraft operating in airspace designated for ADS-B Out, but outside of Class A airspace, must have equipment installed that meets the antenna and output power requirements of either:

(i) Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 as defined in TSO-C166b; or

Per the Becker install manual, the transponder is a class B2. The higher power one is a class B1.
 
Walt,

Are you sure about this?

From Becker data sheet:

The BXP6401-2-(01) is a compact and lightweight single block Mode-S transponder. It is certified according to ETSO-2C112a and is suited for VFR and IFR operations up to 15.000 feet.
The transponder is equipped with extended squitter and SI code function and it provides an interface to the central aircraft data system. It allows ELS, supports EHS, as well as ADS-B via extended squitter.

I have FAA AC 20-165A (ADS-B Out requirements). There is no reference in this document titled class 1 or 2 transponders.

Seems to me Becker designed this unit for ops below 15,000 feet, including ADS-B. Why would it have an extended squitter if this were not true?


It's in the document you mention... just hidden as minimum output power requirements in a chart on page 30. :)

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 20-165A.pdf
 
If seeing traffic now is important to you, then having the out part is required.

And having the appropriate GPS source to generate the correct values for SDA and SIL to not lose traffic this coming January.
 
Walt,

Are you sure about this?

From Becker data sheet:

The BXP6401-2-(01) is a compact and lightweight single block Mode-S transponder. It is certified according to ETSO-2C112a and is suited for VFR and IFR operations up to 15.000 feet.


Seems to me Becker designed this unit for ops below 15,000 feet, including ADS-B. Why would it have an extended squitter if this were not true?

David,
Becker is a European company. The E in ETSO stands for Europe. Yes, they have different rules than the US.
 
Answers!!!

Becker responded - they have an upgrade for my transponder being certified. No cost estimate at this time.

GRT has GPS box coming this fall that will meet ADS-B rqmnts and serial port into Sport EFIS - about $500.

So - we have 4 years to go and this may all work out. :)
 
Becker responded - they have an upgrade for my transponder being certified. No cost estimate at this time.

GRT has GPS box coming this fall that will meet ADS-B rqmnts and serial port into Sport EFIS - about $500.

So - we have 4 years to go and this may all work out. :)

If only this whole ADSB thing was that simple. You will have to wait and see, and hope, that the GRT will output the gps data in a format that your Becker can read. Unfortunately there is no universal standard.

You can add ADSB-in (not required) at anytime, for about $500. Good for weather, and limited traffic.
 
I am afraid you can expect the Becker upgrade quote to surprise you....

For comparison remember that GRT will sell you a remote mounted TT-22 transponder which meets ADSB-out requirements (and I hope will talk to their GPS) for $2.2K. Subtract what you could sell the Becker for, compare to their upgrade quote.
 
Question for Walt or ...

GRT has GPS box coming this fall that will meet ADS-B rqmnts and serial port into Sport EFIS - about $500.

or anyone who knows the rules:

For ADSB-out compliance, is it allowed for the approved (e.g., meets the standards) gps signal to "pass thru" an uncertified box (like most EFIS boxes) on its way to the transponder? Or is a direct connection required?
 
or anyone who knows the rules:

For ADSB-out compliance, is it allowed for the approved (e.g., meets the standards) gps signal to "pass thru" an uncertified box (like most EFIS boxes) on its way to the transponder? Or is a direct connection required?

I watched Denys fly the Gipsy Moth in Out of Africa for the umpteenth time last night and thought we are living at the end of a wonderful era.
Flight freedom as we have known it is ending. The box is getting smaller and smaller. The change is gradual but it is relentless. When all the technology behind ADS-B is fully implemented, there wil be no freedom of flight, every minute flown will be a matter of government record.
We have indeed lived through wonderful times in aviation. It will never be the same.
 
I watched Denys fly the Gipsy Moth in Out of Africa for the umpteenth time last night and thought we are living at the end of a wonderful era.
Flight freedom as we have known it is ending. The box is getting smaller and smaller. The change is gradual but it is relentless. When all the technology behind ADS-B is fully implemented, there wil be no freedom of flight, every minute flown will be a matter of government record.
We have indeed lived through wonderful times in aviation. It will never be the same.

Can the FAA interrogate your transponder to see who it belongs to? Since it has a ICAO code attached to it.
 
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For ADSB-out compliance, is it allowed for the approved (e.g., meets the standards) gps signal to "pass thru" an uncertified box (like most EFIS boxes) on its way to the transponder? Or is a direct connection required?
A direct connection is not mandatory. An example is the Dynon ADS-B compliant GPS puck connects to their ADS-B compliant transponder thru their experimental EFIS system. They can provide more details but it can be done.

Dynon GPS-2020 FAQ

:cool:
 
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What's your mission?

David,

First my disclosure statement: I work at FreeFlight Systems in Irving. As stated in my signature block, I was building a 7A, but the kit, Reserve Duty, and work took too much away from the family so I sold the kit and am now looking at completed projects.

When I'm talking to folks about ADS-B, I first ask, "what is your mission?" If you are flying to Canada or Mexico, then you have to equip with a 1090MHz, transponder based solution. If you are not, then you can equip with a Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) which operates on 978MHz.

If 1090MHz is the path you need to go, then the transponder must be a Mode S/Extended Squitter (ES) type transponder. Just Mode S will not be sufficient. Several manufacturers have been mentioned here, but to rehash, Trig, L-3, Garmin, Dynon, FreeFlight, and several others offer a compliant transponder. The trick is the transponder must be "paired" with an ADS-B compliant GPS or one that meets the required performance as defined in the TSO. The NXT-9000 actually contains a GPS inside the unit, but all the rest require a separate GPS. Systems such as the Garmin 430W/530W, the FreeFlight 1201, and the Trig TN70 are examples of TSO's GPS devices you may use with the others.

If you are not going outside the US, then UAT is a viable option for you. The UAT is typically a complete solution in one box and most offer both ADS-B Out as well as ADS-B In in the same unit. Current key suppliers are Garmin, L-3, FreeFlight, and NavWorx. You will need to check with GRT regarding ADS-B In information on the Sport, but both FreeFlight and Garmin offer options which will display ADS-B In on your iPad using ForeFlight as well as other popular apps.

I hope this helps.

Mikey
 
In all seriousness -- and I say this as a working stiff -- I don't know how anyone expect general aviation to survive this. It's the GPS source requirement that has me rattled.

I didn't build a panel with much fancy stuff.... A Dynon D-100 and a Garmin 296, mostly. and I realize that a lot of RVers loaded up their panels with tens of thousands of dollars of avionics and that's swell. But an awful lot of planes are on the ground with nothing like that and I doubt they're going to go anywhere after this mandate.

I don't see communities keeping airports open when nobody's flying.

Also, as this thing gets closer, I can see the value of RVs dropping as a ton of them flood the market.
 
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4 years is a long time

Who knows what will happen? Even after the mandate becomes effective we can still fly without complying in a lot of airspace.

Every once in a while a new product hits the market; I haven't been paying too much attention but isn't there a Navworx in and out solution available for less than $2k?


Look what the railroads are going through with their inability to meet a federal mandate for some kinda safety equipment costing billions of dollars on Jan 1. I don't think the gov. Will be able to shut the whole railroad industry down if they don't comply by 2016. Perhaps it may turn out the same way with the airlines unable or unwilling to comply and they force FAA to delay? Who knows?

Just my two cents.
 
When I'm talking to folks about ADS-B, I first ask, "what is your mission?" If you are flying to Canada or Mexico, then you have to equip with a 1090MHz, transponder based solution. If you are not, then you can equip with a Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) which operates on 978MHz.

One small clarification: In Canada there is no planned requirement for ADS-B Out for light aircraft, nor are there any plans to provide ADS-B In. ADS-B Out on 1090 MHz is used to provide ATC separation services for high altitude traffic in northern Canada and over the North Atlantic.

So, unless your RV can get up over 30,000 ft, and you intend to fly to northern Canada, or over the Atlantic, don't worry about 1090 MHz. You can fly to Canada with 978 MHz, and you'll get the same services as we do (i.e. nothing, except what you receive from US ground stations).
 
One small clarification: In Canada there is no planned requirement for ADS-B Out for light aircraft, nor are there any plans to provide ADS-B In. ADS-B Out on 1090 MHz is used to provide ATC separation services for high altitude traffic in northern Canada and over the North Atlantic.

So, unless your RV can get up over 30,000 ft, and you intend to fly to northern Canada, or over the Atlantic, don't worry about 1090 MHz. You can fly to Canada with 978 MHz, and you'll get the same services as we do (i.e. nothing, except what you receive from US ground stations).

The Canadian take on ADS-B makes a lot of sense. Perhaps it will end up like that here also.

The FAA does not have a provision for airplanes without an electric system, as far as I know. We have airplanes flying here out of Class D airspace under the Class B veil without a transponder. What will happen to the market value of them and their pilots?

The FAA is destroying general aviation with current ADS-B regulation.
 
The Canadian take on ADS-B makes a lot of sense. Perhaps it will end up like that here also.

The FAA does not have a provision for airplanes without an electric system, as far as I know. We have airplanes flying here out of Class D airspace under the Class B veil without a transponder. What will happen to the market value of them and their pilots?

The FAA is destroying general aviation with current ADS-B regulation.

The "No-Electric" bit is still around -

(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--

(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and

(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.



From 91.225

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...00960eb5897eed7c8625775800671304!OpenDocument
 
The FAA does not have a provision for airplanes without an electric system, as far as I know. We have airplanes flying here out of Class D airspace under the Class B veil without a transponder. What will happen to the market value of them and their pilots?

n.

The above is not correct. FAR 91.225(e) specifically exempts aircraft built with no electrical systems from the ADSB requirement when operating under class B airspace.
That being said, I predict you will see a migration to airports just outside the mode C veil. It used to be that hangars got cheaper the further away you got from the city. I think you will see hangar prices rise at airports just outside the veil.
 
Can the FAA interrogate your transponder to see who it belongs to? Since it has a ICAO code attached to it.

And they hold on to all that data. Two years ago at OSH a friend walked up to the FAA's ADS-B both, gave them his N-number and they pulled up all of his flights, including the ones he took without Flight Following.

My friend asked if the FAA was going to use that data for enforcement actions and the FAA guy was non-committal. My friend then told the FAA guy that if they started doing that, then the pilots always have the option of leaving the ADS-B and transponders turned off. I've never seen a Fed get so flustered in my life. He couldn't believe that a pilot would do such a thing. We both smiled and walked away.
 
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And they hold on to all that data. Two years ago at OSH a friend walked up to the FAA's ADS-B both, gave them his N-number and they pulled up all of his flights, including the ones he took without Flight Following.

My friend asked if the FAA was going to use that data for enforcement actions and the FAA guy was non-committal. My friend then told the FAA guy that if they started doing that, then the pilots always have the option of leaving the ADS-B and transponders turned off. I've never seen a Fed get so flustered in my life. He couldn't believe that a pilot would do such a thing. We both smiled and walked away.

Of course, it's NOT an option. The FARs require that if you have these devices installed and operational then they must be turned on.

There are rules, and as a pilot you're expected to follow them. I don't see this as a big deal.
 
Of course, it's NOT an option. The FARs require that if you have these devices installed and operational then they must be turned on.

There are rules, and as a pilot you're expected to follow them. I don't see this as a big deal.

And how many people have "forgot" to turn them on? Heck I flew from SC to TX with my transponder's altitude reporting turned off. I didn't talk to anyone on that trip and didn't realize it until I was on the ground in Houston.

All I'm saying is that if the FAA starts mining the ASB-B data for violations, a little civil disobedience can go a long way. (Let us hope it never goes that far!)

All that said, if you can avoid installing ADS-B, do so. I couldn't and don't like the ability of the FAA tracking every flight. I have a friend who gets alerts whenever the FAA picks up my discrete transponder signature and calls to see how the flight went. There is no hiding with ADS-B and if you think you will never bust some airspace, you are kidding yourself. 10 feet inside their airspace is as good as a mile and who's at fault if our moving map display is not accurate?

(Bob, but using the word "you", I am referring to all of us, not just you Bob.)
 
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I sell the L3 NGT-9000 for $5895 with everything included. When you add up the price for a new transponder, certified GPS source and ADS-B receiver it's really very competitive.
It also has a very nice touch screen display that shows weather and traffic.

Slightly tangential to the topic, but if I installed an NGT-9000 (with it's TSO'ed GPS) and used it to drive my EFIS, could I file IFR with /G?
 
Slightly tangential to the topic, but if I installed an NGT-9000 (with it's TSO'ed GPS) and used it to drive my EFIS, could I file IFR with /G?

simple answer is no. part of what makes a system /G approved is the data base and the software that runs it. just having a position source that is ADSB compliant does not meet the requirements to file /G.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
That's what I was thinking as well. What if I loaded Jepp or Seattle Avionics charts into my GRT? :)

Or is that a no because the EFIS is not TSO'ed?
 
That's what I was thinking as well. What if I loaded Jepp or Seattle Avionics charts into my GRT? :)

Or is that a no because the EFIS is not TSO'ed?

Right, still no good, because the TSO applies to the whole system. Of course, as has been discussed to death, strictly speaking the box does not have to have a TSO, if you can show that it in fact meets the TSO requirements. But TSOs 145/146 are so detailed it's impossible for the average person to do so.
 
I'm still interested in seeing whether the value of our planes go up or down as this mandate approaches. There are going to be a LOT of airplanes flooding the market in the next few years -- people who don't want to spend $6,000 for the "affordable" version of complying with the mandate.

So if you spend the money to comply, does your RV go up in value because it's mandate compliant? Or does it go down because there are so many airplanes flooding the market?
 
ADSB

When and where is ADSB GOING TO BE REQUIRED IN CANADA? I don't really want the FAA to know anything about me unless I'm IFR. I will wait until the last minute to install and stay out of the C ring and go VFR.
 
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