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  #21  
Old 11-06-2017, 03:23 PM
sritchie sritchie is offline
 
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Location: Boulder, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorfie View Post
What size area would you or did you cover for fireproofing the belly? Specifically:
Wider than the cowl outlet at the front? Full width of belly?
How far back from cowl outlet did you insulate?
Did you keep it the same width front to back, or taper towards the rear?
Thanks.
Johan
I did not! I may add this before first flight, but nothing yet.
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  #22  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:11 PM
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ppilotmike ppilotmike is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorfie View Post
What size area would you or did you cover for fireproofing the belly? Specifically:
Wider than the cowl outlet at the front? Full width of belly?
How far back from cowl outlet did you insulate?
Did you keep it the same width front to back, or taper towards the rear?
Thanks.
Johan
I made a fiberfrax and SS sandwich on the belly of my bird. I used the 1/16" Fiberfrax and 0.010" SS sheet. It came out nicely, with no noticeable pillowing. My belly shield is full width, going back about 20" in the middle and tapering a little further back along the sides. I intend to use 1/8" Fiberfrax and 0.010" SS sheet for the fire wall, secured with SS rivets. The SS sheet is thick enough that it doesn't wrinkle much, so I think my finished product will weather nicely in the engine compartment, although I'm not yet finished with it. Folding the SS sheet to get a nice infill in the recessed box in the firewall is difficult. For that I intend to use a thinner SS sheet (I think it's 0.005"). I will use aluminum tape for a seam, in order to provide a place for venting in a fire event.
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EAA Chapter 301, President www.eaa301.org
VAF Dues Current: Paid for 2019 on 12/03/18
RV-10 (41PX Reserved) Fuselage
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F-14 (Pedal Plane - Daughter's Project) "Flying"
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  #23  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:40 PM
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SMO SMO is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
Do you recall specifically what stainless tape you used (or the supplier)?
I don't know the specific brand of tape, but I believe I bought it with the foil from McMaster Carr.
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  #24  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:23 AM
Dorfie Dorfie is offline
 
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Location: Lexington, KY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppilotmike View Post
I made a fiberfrax and SS sandwich on the belly of my bird. I used the 1/16" Fiberfrax and 0.010" SS sheet. It came out nicely, with no noticeable pillowing. My belly shield is full width, going back about 20" in the middle and tapering a little further back along the sides. I intend to use 1/8" Fiberfrax and 0.010" SS sheet for the fire wall, secured with SS rivets. The SS sheet is thick enough that it doesn't wrinkle much, so I think my finished product will weather nicely in the engine compartment, although I'm not yet finished with it. Folding the SS sheet to get a nice infill in the recessed box in the firewall is difficult. For that I intend to use a thinner SS sheet (I think it's 0.005"). I will use aluminum tape for a seam, in order to provide a place for venting in a fire event.
Mike,
Thanks. What I was looking for.
When you say sandwich, did you wrap the fiberfrax between two layers of SS, then attached that to the belly, or is it belly skin, fiberfrax covered by SS? If it is the latter, how did you manage the sharp edges of the SS foil?
What method of attachment did you use?
I have not worked with 0.010" SS foil (my firewall was done with 0.002) and wonder how easy it is to work with the 0.010", like bending, folding on itself, cutting and making holes. I was contemplating using 0.005" on the belly but will go with 0.010" if it is easy to work with.
Thanks for your response.
Johan
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  #25  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:32 AM
Dorfie Dorfie is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppilotmike View Post
I made a fiberfrax and SS sandwich on the belly of my bird. I used the 1/16" Fiberfrax and 0.010" SS sheet. It came out nicely, with no noticeable pillowing. My belly shield is full width, going back about 20" in the middle and tapering a little further back along the sides. I intend to use 1/8" Fiberfrax and 0.010" SS sheet for the fire wall, secured with SS rivets. The SS sheet is thick enough that it doesn't wrinkle much, so I think my finished product will weather nicely in the engine compartment, although I'm not yet finished with it. Folding the SS sheet to get a nice infill in the recessed box in the firewall is difficult. For that I intend to use a thinner SS sheet (I think it's 0.005"). I will use aluminum tape for a seam, in order to provide a place for venting in a fire event.

Mike,
I looked for pictures of your install on your builder's site, but could not find the belly fireproofing. Could you point me in the right direction please.
Thanks.
Johan
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  #26  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:41 AM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppilotmike View Post
I made a fiberfrax and SS sandwich on the belly of my bird. I used the 1/16" Fiberfrax and 0.010" SS sheet. It came out nicely, with no noticeable pillowing. My belly shield is full width, going back about 20" in the middle and tapering a little further back along the sides. I intend to use 1/8" Fiberfrax and 0.010" SS sheet for the fire wall, secured with SS rivets. The SS sheet is thick enough that it doesn't wrinkle much, so I think my finished product will weather nicely in the engine compartment, although I'm not yet finished with it. Folding the SS sheet to get a nice infill in the recessed box in the firewall is difficult. For that I intend to use a thinner SS sheet (I think it's 0.005"). I will use aluminum tape for a seam, in order to provide a place for venting in a fire event.
Mike,
Do you remember where you got your .01" SS foil? My search on internet was not fruitful for a wide piece that can be used on the FW.
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  #27  
Old 11-15-2017, 05:16 PM
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ppilotmike ppilotmike is offline
 
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Sorry I've been away for a while. Work gets in the way!
My belly shield consists of 1/16" FFrax against the belly skin (aluminum) with a 0.010" SS sheet over that, riveted to the structure. The O.010" SS sheet was easy to work with and allowed me to break the edges, so that when everything was riveted in place the edges of the SS stayed tight, without lifting up. The FFrax compresses a bit during riveting, but overall the pillowing is not very evident in the finished structure (probably also due to the thicker SS sheet). Below are some links to the VAF post where I list where I got the SS sheet and also to my weblog, which hasn't been updated in months, but shows the finished belly shield.

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...t=sheet&page=2

http://www.mykitlog.com/users/displa...=222385&row=80

I will do 1/8" FFrax on the firewall, similar to what Dan Horton has recommended. My SS sheet will be held in place there using SS rivets, symmetrically spaced across the firewall.
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VAF Dues Current: Paid for 2019 on 12/03/18
RV-10 (41PX Reserved) Fuselage
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index....ig&project=803
F-14 (Pedal Plane - Daughter's Project) "Flying"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKCyX2FXrlw
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  #28  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:05 PM
160kt 160kt is offline
 
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Dan,
I'm curious about your post. Sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this and I'd like to try and follow you in it. I'm curious too about your heating experimentation in these regards.

It seems there are some assumptions that I haven't been able to come to yet and need some help on.

You mention ensuring that the firewall is sealed so there are no leak paths to the cockpit. You say that the fiberfrax and binders forward of the firewall need to have an escape path for the gases from those binders burning.
You suggest providing a path forward of the firewall by providing seams in the foil with overlay tape that melts away so the gas will go forward away from the firewall.

Since the firewall was made impervious to leaks why not make the fiberfrax protective foil impervious as well? Why assume that once the seam tape is gone that the gas will go forward? Seems that the pressure would still be higher in the engine compartment and that once the tape melts a path would be open for the fire to work against the fiberfrax perhaps ignite those gases and then work against the firewall that we are trying to protect. Wouldn't it be better to let whatever gases build in the sandwich find a path out at the edges? Just thinking out loud and wanting to understand why not make the foil totally sealed just like the firewall? Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
Weight savings compared to SS foil? Just curious. Any savings is a plus.

Application notes:

Given fire exposure, the binder in the fiberfrax and some volatile components in the Firebarrier 2000 sealant will outgas. That gas needs an escape path. We want it to go into the engine compartment, where it is harmless.

So, before applying any fiberfrax, be sure the firewall is sealed at the perimeter flange, as well as around any openings, like under the mounting flanges of the heater boxes. No leak paths into the passenger compartment.

Fixating the fiberfrax to the firewall with a few beads of FB2000 is not a bad idea, and convenient for fabrication, but I'd keep it to a minimum, depending instead on mechanical fixation with SS pop rivets through foil, fiberfrax, and firewall. You simply can't depend on sealant to remain highly adhesive when hot.

Now, very important...the desired outgas path is provided by one of the foil overlaps. Those overlaps are sealed with aluminum tape in normal service. We want the tape to melt so the outgas can pass through the overlap, thus at least one section of overlap should be located in an area with a high likelihood of 1100F or more. The likely hot spot is down at the base of the firewall, so the surest bet is a vertical overlap seam right up the center. Horizontal overlaps higher on the firewall may not get hot enough. Is it critical? Maybe not, but the vertical overlap should make it predictable.
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  #29  
Old 09-30-2018, 06:45 PM
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vernon smith vernon smith is offline
 
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Location: Naples FL
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I guess there are as many ways to install a stainless firewall shield with Fiberfrax as there are folks doing it, this is our rendition. We used .010” hard for the bottom and firewall and .010” soft for the oil filter recess. The extra thickness adds a little weight, but it is nearly impossible to drill a round hole in anything much thinner. Using a hole saw in the thin material is also very problematic. We used .062” frax on the belly and .125” on the firewall. While it certainly gives one a warm fizzy feeling knowing it’s up there in the very unlikely event of an engine fire we were more interested in sound deadening and cabin temperature considerations.

I think we followed all the good advice previously posted to this thread with some enhanced fabrication techniques mostly for aesthetics to an area that nobody will see. I apologize for the belly picture, I forgot to take a picture before we took it off the rotisserie.




















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  #30  
Old 09-30-2018, 10:17 PM
tgmillso tgmillso is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
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Very professional looking. Sure beats my 2 thou foil wrinkle look. That said, the 5 thou titaniumgoat sheet on the belly came out pretty well, but I was only putting it over 1/16" frax.

Tom.
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