VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Model Specific > RV-12
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #51  
Old 11-09-2017, 10:05 AM
pstraub's Avatar
pstraub pstraub is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Galt, CA
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
There is indeed some confusion here. Yes the latest operating limitations for ELSA DO reference the AOI:
14. The pilot may only conduct the flight maneuvers authorized in the AOI. (27)
Hi Mel, I noticed that too, I was hoping what they meant by 'Flight Maneuvers' had to do with spins, aerobatics, etc. Flying IFR or in IMC would be a little strange to call a flight maneuver. Anxious to hear what you find out.
__________________
Paul Straub, First Flight May 5, 2017
50 hours and counting.....
**2017 dues paid**
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 11-09-2017, 10:20 AM
12vaitor 12vaitor is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 110
Default

Is the POH part of the Van's RV-12 ELSA ASTM configuration? If so, that would imply that the POH is incorporated by reference in the OLs ("If relying on the manufacturer's data, the aircraft must conform to the manufacturer's design and be maintained to manufacturer's instructions."). That would also indicate modifying the POH for any IFR mods made after the original ELSA SAWC and OLs are issued.

John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 11-09-2017, 09:14 PM
rongawer's Avatar
rongawer rongawer is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 254
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12vaitor View Post
Is the POH part of the Van's RV-12 ELSA ASTM configuration? If so, that would imply that the POH is incorporated by reference in the OLs ("If relying on the manufacturer's data, the aircraft must conform to the manufacturer's design and be maintained to manufacturer's instructions."). That would also indicate modifying the POH for any IFR mods made after the original ELSA SAWC and OLs are issued.

John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
It does have to comply for the certificate to be issued. But once the AWC is issued, you, your neighbor or anyone else may make modifications to both the aircraft and/or any flight manual you may have produced.
__________________
Ron Gawer

- RV12, N975G, SN 120840, Build in progress...finishing up.
- BE58, N1975G, stimulating the economy one flight at a time.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 11-09-2017, 09:18 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,147
Default

You may be right about the modification of the POH. I never had the problem so I never dug into the legalities once my DAR put the FSDO position in writing that I could fly IFR if so equipped.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 11-25-2017, 11:43 PM
backcountry backcountry is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 17
Default

Most of the ELSA Operating Limitations Paragraph 19 allow IFR if so equipped. However mine wasn't. I contacted the FAA FSDO and they gladly provided me a new Operating Limitations allowing IFR.

I have a Garmin G3X with autopilot. The only thing I needed to do was order a Garmin GTN 625 IFR GPS and I got special pricing when adding it to a G3X system. I ordered it from Stine and he provided the wiring which made it all plug & play. Not required but I also added a Garmin G5 backup display. It is not only a separate display it also backs up components like the AHRS feeding the G3X over the network.

I've flown thousands of hours IFR starting back in the early 60's a lot of this time is instrument instructing.
I fly this aircraft with this instrumentation IFR and it's far better than the most aircraft I fly. However, IFR or VFR you need to always evaluate the weather you fly in small aircraft are more limited. That said for me the IFR I fly in is more smoother, safer and enjoyable than VFR.

Note I'm not trying to sell anyone on using this aircraft for IFR because I believe most people are using the aircraft for local pleasure flight. IFR is certainly not for every one and unless you understand it and are current on IFR you would only be asking for a lot of trouble and you would not find it more safer and enjoyable than VFR and that goes for any aircraft.

Also the pitot heat is required per part 23 not part 91.205 and the older part 23 aircraft are grandfathered out like my BE35 & C-172. Note, the RV-12 isn't a part 23 aircraft. If you don't have pitot heat don't even get close to ice as the pitot is the first to leave and right after that everything else comes a bigger problem. I've been there and your not going to have fun. Just because your IFR you can't go just anywhere and be safe.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:53 AM
Mel's Avatar
Mel Mel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 9,725
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pstraub View Post
Hi Mel, I noticed that too, I was hoping what they meant by 'Flight Maneuvers' had to do with spins, aerobatics, etc. Flying IFR or in IMC would be a little strange to call a flight maneuver. Anxious to hear what you find out.
This is the unofficial interpretation I have gotten from Oklahoma City.
My GUY in Ok City agrees that the intent is directed toward flight maneuvers and not IFR flight. He agrees with us that because of the paragraph allowing instruments flight rules, IFR flight IS allowed if properly equipped and maintained. He is looking into getting an "official" interpretation.
__________________
Mel Asberry..DAR since last century
A&P/EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Specializing in Amateur-Built and Light-Sport Aircraft
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
North Texas (8TA5)
RV-6 Flying since 1993, 175hp O-320, 3-Blade Catto (since 2003)
Legend Cub purchased 12/2017
FRIEND of the RV-1
Eagle's Nest Mentor
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 11-26-2017, 09:45 AM
rongawer's Avatar
rongawer rongawer is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 254
Default

OL’s: that’s good news Mel - thanks for the update. I’m glad to hear there’s still some common sense at the FAA.

Pitot Heat: this was yet another reason I built E-AB. I wanted an airplane I could use for IFR if needed. I put a Garmin heated pitot out in the left wing.
__________________
Ron Gawer

- RV12, N975G, SN 120840, Build in progress...finishing up.
- BE58, N1975G, stimulating the economy one flight at a time.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 11-26-2017, 12:53 PM
pstraub's Avatar
pstraub pstraub is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Galt, CA
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
This is the unofficial interpretation I have gotten from Oklahoma City.
My GUY in Ok City agrees that the intent is directed toward flight maneuvers and not IFR flight. He agrees with us that because of the paragraph allowing instruments flight rules, IFR flight IS allowed if properly equipped and maintained. He is looking into getting an "official" interpretation.
Thanks very much Mel, that is a very encouraging 'unofficial' interpretation!! I used to love flying IFR/IMC back in the '80s and would be sad if I couldn't use my RV-12 in that environment 'just a little bit'
__________________
Paul Straub, First Flight May 5, 2017
50 hours and counting.....
**2017 dues paid**
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 11-26-2017, 10:51 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,147
Default

Ron, Iím with you on pitot heat. I once had my Cherokee pitot tube ice over in the soup. It was a good lesson in pitch and power flying the few minutes it took to melt the ice once I turned on the pitot heat. I should have had it on based on the temperature, but as they say: experience is what you get right after you needed it!
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 11-27-2017, 12:26 AM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 4,814
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFSchaller View Post
Ron, Iím with you on pitot heat. I once had my Cherokee pitot tube ice over in the soup. It was a good lesson in pitch and power flying the few minutes it took to melt the ice once I turned on the pitot heat. I should have had it on based on the temperature, but as they say: experience is what you get right after you needed it!
With a modern EFIS, the need for pitot heat may be critical - some brands of EFIS may lose their horizon reference with a blocked pitot.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:50 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.