How is build quality judged?

In my quest to learn as much as I can about building an RV, I've read a lot about build quality. Despite searching these forums, I haven't seen it defined (which I'm sure is a matter of opinion)

How is build quality defined?

Is it the riveting? How well the skin is installed (no gaps, etc)? What tells you if something is built well?

Thanks for all the info so far. I look forward to learning more.

I'm interested in hearing the responses to this question also. But I'm sure some judges will look at the quality of rivets, fit and finish, especially on challenging areas that only someone who has built before would understand.

I haven't looked at too many -8s since I started building but I know which areas were challenging and I will go straight to those areas, not so much to judge, but to assure myself my work was acceptable.

Here are the judging guidelines from EAA...

http://www.airventure.org/awards/judging_manual.pdf

It depends on the judge. This is what Oshkosh Judges are looking for;

David Juckem, vice-chairman of Homebuilt Judging
Every judge develops his own criteria of what they look at and for. That list may even change over time; the list below is mine for now.

Safety – We are all about safety of flight when it comes to our aircraft, and that means proper use of hardware, well maintained engines and airframes, using accepted design and build practices and, of course, materials.
Alignment – Are all the components of the airframe in proper relation to each other? (Example: Do the vertical and horizontal stabilizers form a 90 degree angle?)
Placards – are the instruments labeled correctly? Does the fuel cap show type and quantity of fuel? etc.
Craftsmanship – Are the rivets driven properly? Do the rib tapes show attention to detail? Is the fiberglass (where visible) straight and wetted out properly? And are panel lines straight and of equal width?
Finish – I almost didn't include this one because, while a nice paint job is certainly a pleasure to look at, it is the least important of the things I look at when judging an aircraft.

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Next step down will be your DAR Judge. The toughest judge in my opinion.


Step down a Technical Counselor Judge.


Then you are the Judge.


All us VAF judgies.

I wasn't thinking about show quality judging.

I've read people's opinions about other's build quality being poor or good and I wondered how you make that determination.

Is it tied to the EAA's standards?

I'm certain peoples' opinions are very subjective, but based on experience they are also based on perception of the builder's attitude toward quality and/or safety. I suspect the EAA judging guidelines are more objective in nature.

My own minimalistic guidelines, since you asked and for what they're worth (nothing), are..

- Does it meet airworthiness standards?
- How well was the build designed (beyond kit qualities)?
- Are there any inovative designs?
- How well was it executed?
- Were any obvious defects allowed?
- Is it easily maintainable?

Obviously, airworthiness and execution are the biggest determining factors.

If I leave blood everywhere when working on it then I tend to give it a failing grade

But honestly, I look at the little things like:

1) Edge finishing, if the edges aren't smooth, deburred and the corners rounded then I assume the rivet holes had the same amount of care.
2) Rivets are set properly and were the correct length, spacing and edge distance are also correct.
3) Skin dimpling (includes substructure), are the skins mirror smooth and free of defects.
4) Gaps are consistant even and symetrical, applies to sheet metal and especially fiberglass.

I'm sure there are more but those are the first ones that come to mind.

My list is similar to Walt's when it comes to structure - edge finishing is where I find lots of folks not showing attention to detail.

In systems work, I look for neat, parallel wiring with nice end crimps, even service loops, and good even lacing or wire ties. You can tell a quality wiring job because the builder will also take the time to make it look good. On plumbing, do things line up, or do joints meet at slightly skewed angles?

Care shows,

Paul

Flyingfanatic said:

............I've read people's opinions about other's build quality being poor or good and I wondered how you make that determination.

Is it tied to the EAA's standards?

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A friend and I looked at an F-1 project that was on its wheels and the control surfaces were lying there as well. We couldn't believe what we saw! None of the rivets/rivet holes were in line on the bulkheads of the fuselage, or the longerons! and the spacing was random too, some 3/4" apart, then maybe 1 1/4". Edge distance criteria was totally ignored and we saw many violations.

ALL the control surfaces (ailerons and elevators, and rudder) were severely warped, as you look at them from their trailing edges.

The project was a disaster and we said so...that it should never fly. What happened to it is anybody's guess, but it was a perfect example of how wrong it can be done.

Best,

I have been told that many rv buyers look at the canopy right away as that is one of the hardest things to do well...

pierre smith said:

A friend and I looked at an F-1 project that was on its wheels and the control surfaces were lying there as well. We couldn't believe what we saw! None of the rivets/rivet holes were in line on the bulkheads of the fuselage, or the longerons! and the spacing was random too, some 3/4" apart, then maybe 1 1/4". Edge distance criteria was totally ignored and we saw many violations.

ALL the control surfaces (ailerons and elevators, and rudder) were severely warped, as you look at them from their trailing edges.

The project was a disaster and we said so...that it should never fly. What happened to it is anybody's guess, but it was a perfect example of how wrong it can be done.

Best,

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Boy, I hope that wasn't my Rocket you were looking at! (I know it wasn't)

You bring up a good point. I think there was a much better chance to show off your craftsmanship with the older kits where you had to align the ribs and drill all the holes. We are more assemblers now rather than builders.

Let's face it. The average non-builder just looks at the paint. If that airplane Pierre is talking about gets a $15k paint job then everyone will call it a 'work of art'.

No way, Sid.

Try and draw a straight line from one corner of a page to the opposite side, FREEHAND, and you'll have an idea of this particular airplane's rivet alignment....or rather, ask a three year old to do it....better analogy.

Best,

When I want to see if someone paid attention to the build quality I check the alignment of the wing tips, ailerons and flaps. If they all line up on one side then walk around to see if the other side is the same. Pay particular attention to how the trailing edge of the wing tips align with the ailerons and flaps. Quite often the wing tips are not formed properly and this shows in the alignment. Someone who is fussy will cut the tips, and re-bond them to make sure they line up with the flight surfaces when it is on the aircraft. Are the ailerons and flaps perfectly straight, do the flaps meet the fuselage properly and is that intersection the same on both sides. This inspection can take a total of one minute and alignment problems can not be hidden with an expensive paint job.

Mercilessly

Flash

Dan just moved up two (more) notches in my book.



M

As you can see, beyond certain basics, we all have different things we look at. Since I watch H. S. age kids building, I do see some variation in quality. If safety and common practice is observed, it passes. I do make it a point that the subjective, the beauty and consistency of something, is important. This is the point where we have the "Ah ha!" moments. I believe this is a product of both pride and skill level. When the young builder realizes how much better something looks when they take the time to align the pneumatic rivet puller exactly each time for example, is an indication of quality to me. "B" work is safe and acceptable; "A" work is what we hope to instill in the builder's mind. Usually it works. "A" work is what wins awards. Most builders aren't capable of it, at least not throughout their first project.

Bob

foka4 said:

Dan just moved up two (more) notches in my book.



M

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Dan's got funny statues of Charles Lindbergh on his shelves...I've seen them! The build quality on his airplanes is better than on the statues BTW....

I wonder.
Doesn't it boil down to conformance with AC 43.13?

In my mind:
Non-conformance is BAD.
Conformance would be rated GOOD.

Exceeding the 43.13 quality expectations puts the craft into EXCEPTIONAL and is solidly into the realm of subjective judging.

Multiple Offenders or A & P's

As someone who commenced his active search for an RV-6 prior to my house flooding from Hurricane Sandy, I realized getting the right plane may involve going across the country to do so. I check all the sources as airplanes come onto the market regularly. If an ad says it was built by a "multiple offender" or an A & P I continue looking into it. I have been staying away from someone's first attempt unless it is fairly nearby and I can bring my experienced A & P/ Builder friend to give his opinion. Am I severely limiting my choices by discounting a novice's first build if it isn't close to home?

Tonard Bales said:

If an ad says it was built by a "multiple offender" or an A & P I continue looking into it. I have been staying away from someone's first attempt unless it is fairly nearby and I can bring my experienced A & P/ Builder friend to give his opinion. Am I severely limiting my choices by discounting a novice's first build if it isn't close to home?

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In my opinion, yes. In the end it comes down to price and quality. Many cosmetic things can be easily corrected if the price is right. It's hard to put together any of the pre-punched RVs incorrectly. I've seen some very, very nice first time builds that I wouldn't hesitate to purchase. That being said (by a multiple offender) I have a pretty good list of tricks and "nice-to-haves" on my list when I build because I've been there before so there is some value in buying from a multiple offender, but only if priced right.

Tonard Bales said:

Am I severely limiting my choices by discounting a novice's first build if it isn't close to home?

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In my opinion, yes. I have seen some excellent first time builds. I also do not think being an A/I means anything. Some are very good builders. Some, not so much.
Beyond basic airworthiness concerns, what separates quality in my mind is the fit and finish of the parts, riveting quality, and alignment as already mentioned.

I try not to judge as anyone who has completed the project gets an A grade in my mind, I just might not want to own what they built.

I found it interesting to look at the rivet lines on a B-24. They sure weren't cnc punched skins! Anyone know if they were line-drilled or drilled on patterns? Considering the expected lifetime of the airplane, I guess it didn't really matter how straight they were.

I find that the difference between good and excellent workmanship can be more difficult to ascertain than spotting poor workmanship. Attention to detail and tidiness in areas most won't see are good indicators, i.e. wiring and plumbing. Also FWF if the cowl is off.

DAR Duty...

We need to have a DAR or two step up here. I'm an assembler (I consider the Van's aircraft "Owner Assembled", not really "experimental") And here are a few rules I'm using during my build:

1. If the DAR cuts him or herself when inspecting, you fail.

2. Flopping wires or hoses, you fail.

3. Look beyond paint. Edge distance is more important that fill and prime.

4. Look for the hard stuff and how that was done. The row of rivets up the middle are easy, The ones at the ends around corners are tough.

5. I do not consider pop rivets a sign of weakness!

6. Leaks or seeps, you fail.

7. You can not hide an electrical rats nest with a cover plate.

8. Amount spent on a project is not correlated with quality.

Others?

Dkb

Tonard Bales said:

Am I severely limiting my choices by discounting a novice's first build if it isn't close to home?

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In my many years as a metal aircraft judge and TC I have closely inspected literally hundreds of RVs. The often made statement that you need a repeat builder to construct a really high quality amateur-built aircraft is perhaps one of the most erroneous and persistent myths going around. In fact the exact opposite is generally the truth.

The very best RVs that I have been involved in judging (the Concours d'Elegance and Grand Champion winners) have all been built by first time builders. These aircraft are generally 6 to 10 year builds with unbelievable attention to every minor detail. Very few of these major award winners ever builds again. It takes too long and requires too much personal sacrifice for them to complete an aircraft to the very high standards that they demand of themselves. Except in very rare cases, most of them just haven't got a second aircraft in them.

The quest for excellence and the desire to quietly and painstakingly fabricate consistently high quality components comes from within the personality. If you don't have these attributes on the first aircraft you build it is unlikely that you will have them on the second or third.

In my experience, multiple builders who churn out aircraft in a couple of years don't tend to build better quality aircraft as they move from one project to the next. They simply use their gained expertise to build faster. They are not so much motivated by excellence. Their satisfaction comes from the thrill of seeing things rapidly come together. And as for A & Ps constructing better amateur-built aircraft...that has not been my experience either. Having a background in aviation can be of considerable benefit but once again, in the end, it all comes down to the mindset of the individual. Honestly, I've seen some very nice aircraft built by A & Ps, but I've also seen quite a few shockers.

So I recommend that you do not restrict yourself to viewing just aircraft that are built by "repeat offenders" or A & Ps as you will be tending to exclude some of the very best aircraft by doing so.

Of course you don't want to be running around all over the country unnecessarily, so if any available photos and specs look promising the next question I'd ask would be: "How many workshop hours did you invest in the construction process". The more hours, the greater the chance that the aircraft will be of higher quality....and vice versa. The equation is Q=H (Quality = Hours spent on construction).

Your rationale makes sense, Bob. I can certainly see your statements being true.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a DAR?

Close supervision = valuable

Tonard Bales said:

... Am I severely limiting my choices by discounting a novice's first build if it isn't close to home?

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As someone who co-purchased a flying RV9a that was the builder's first RV build, I'd also say yes. A novice build can be of great quality, and likely will be if that builder taps into the great builder support that is VAF/the RV community.

I'm no qualified judge myself, but multiple builders and A&Ps commented on the high build quality of our adopted RV. From later talking with the builder, sounds like he was closely mentored by former builders in his area and that really can make a first build a quality build IMO. Add to that the resources provided here on VAF, and dedicated builders can do some impressive work.

Of course, none of that guarantees quality results; just makes it more possible.

Flyingfanatic said:

Your rationale makes sense, Bob. I can certainly see your statements being true.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a DAR?

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A Designated Airworthiness Representative. See FAA description here:

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_types/dar/

Bob,

This is good to hear. I now have some justification for why its taking me so long to build this thing.

rapid_ascent said:

Bob,

This is good to hear. I now have some justification for why its taking me so long to build this thing.

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Ray, I note that you gave the following excellent advice to a newbie on VansAirforce back in July:

"Take your time in the beginning and you'll get the hang of it. Nothing is too difficult, but it will get frustrating at times. When it gets like that just walk away before you really mess something up. It took me a while to realize this."

I also note that you built TWO Van's training kits, and did a sheet metal class, before you started on your actual aircraft. That's the sort of start that makes for a great first-up construction.

The problem with many new builders is that they are impatient to see the aircraft taking shape. This leads them to learn their basic construction skills during the actual build process rather than on practice material. This results in poor early workmanship on the empennage and that ultimately sets a low benchmark for the entire aircraft.

Captain Avgas said:

The quest for excellence and the desire to quietly and painstakingly fabricate consistently high quality components comes from within the personality. If you don't have these attributes on the first aircraft you build it is unlikely that you will have them on the second or third.

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This is so true.

Captain Avgas said:

The often made statement that you need a repeat builder to construct a really high quality amateur-built aircraft is perhaps one of the most erroneous and persistent myths going around. In fact the exact opposite is generally the truth.

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Uh, not so true. I know many repeat builders and without exception, they are all excellent builders. While they can build faster due to their experience, I have found that the reason they are repeat builders is that they enjoy building because they are good at it.

Good and not so good can come from anywhere. I think the overall point that everyone has made is true. Looking at one group of builders over another may cause you to miss out on an excellent purchase.

f1rocket said:

I know many repeat builders and without exception, they are all excellent builders.

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I agree that there are many repeat builders capable of producing very good workmanship. That is undeniable. But my point was that the best of the best aircraft (the absolute show stoppers) tend to be constructed by first time builders. On that basis I suggested that it would not make sense for a potential buyer to look only at aircraft constructed by serial builders.

Put it this way. Some men are motivated to build one aircraft in 9 years, and others are motivated to build three aircraft in 9 years. It shouldn't come as any surprise as to which motivation will likely produce the most outstanding result.

In my years of judging I have probably seen three or four RVs that had totally awesome construction whereby every little detail was hugely considered and beautifully crafted. And all of them, without exception, were first builds. Anyway that's my personal experience.

Personally I like the Dan Horton approach. He's been beavering away on his RV8 for many years now and I've been following his progress on VansAirforce. Each part of the construction is an individual little project for Dan and, as a result, the outcome is usually quite sublime...but obviously very time consuming. This is his philosophy and I quote him because it's an outlook that resonates well with me:

"I often pop a beer and just sit in the shop admiring a finished component. The satisfaction is why I build. No matter what happens in the outside world, only I determine how well things turn out in my shop."