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RV-6 landing - How'd this happen?

jmcanty3

Active Member
I'm trying to get some insight on the landing characteristics of the -6 and I came across this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E_NRwqx6-o&x-yt-ts=1422503916&x-yt-cl=85027636

I have yet to really figure out where things went downhill. I suspect he was trying to make a wheel landing, but ended up spiking the nose too soon. He bounced, and then proceeded to try and salvage the wheel landing instead of switching to a three point??????

Any advice on a -6 landing for a -4 trained pilot?

Thanks!
JC
 
He looked like he was just behind the airplane. He probably should have gone around or setup for a 3 point after that second bounce. We've all made bad landings in the RV.

A wood prop RV-6 lands like an RV-4 with a passenger in the back to me. You have to use very light stick forces and small inputs.
 
Been there. Easy to do in the -6, but as Sid said - GO AROUND!

He touched down in a tail low wheel landing, so a tiny bit slow for a "traditional" wheel landing and he probably touched before he was ready. Once that happened I agree he got behind and made his pitch adjustment to pin the mains far to late.

It's been a while since I've done that, but when I did I went around immediately. That PIO bouncy stuff is scary. :eek:
 
Any advice on a -6 landing for a -4 trained pilot?

Little practical difference. This video shows a tailwheel 101 mistake, nothing unique to the -6 or RVs in general. He was simply late nudging the stick forward when the wheels touched, bounced a little, then just sat there like a log doing nothing with the controls and just rode through the bounces, which got worse after the first one until it ran out of energy. This is typical when you do nothing to recover a bounce. Such bad technique can result in a prop strike. Bounce recovery in an RV is the same as any other tailwheel airplane.

Been there. Easy to do in the -6, but as Sid said - GO AROUND!

Sure if you're a beginner tailwheel pilot. But bounce recovery is a basic tailwheel skill pilots should posess. Hold attitude with the stick, and descent rate with power if needed. Small bounces don't need power. Bigger bounces and a short application of power and holding the stick back will generally cause the airplane to re-land 3-point no problem. Or if you recovered the bounce and have descent rate under control again, there's no reason not to wheel it back on, despite the cliché often heard about either converting to 3-point or going around.
 
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Looked fine to me! :D

In all seriousness... I consider a bounce to be a nice setup for a 3 point, no point getting into a fight with the plane. She has spoken -- 3 point it is!

-jon
 
Looked fine to me! :D

In all seriousness... I consider a bounce to be a nice setup for a 3 point, no point getting into a fight with the plane. She has spoken -- 3 point it is!

-jon

Agreed. Our squadron standard for formation is wheel landing. It is far better to execute the three point from the bounce than try to re-stick it or go around.....
I have the badge....
 
Looks like just a little more speed than necessary, and/or too much descent when the wheels touched. That's just the plane telling you it's not ready to land yet. :)

To fix it, you have to change something, and step yourself out of the feedback loop that you're riding the backside of. If you don't, the plane will lead you up and down a few times until you either wreck it, or give up and three-point it. If you do catch it immediately, it's possible to recover the wheel landing without another bounce...
 
Yeah, he got a bit behind the airplane and made too late and abrupt of stick movements trying to fix it.

Been there, done that many times myself and still occasionally do one like that. What's the old saying... any landing you walk away from is a good landing and if the airplane is still useable afterwards, its a *great* landing :D

Practice makes perfect however, and lately I've been doing a lot of greaser wheel landings in mine... the -6 just takes a lot more finesse than the other RV models IMHO, and it's easy to overcontrol and PIO it during the wheel landing touchdown.

Edit to add: The way I was taught to wheel land my -6 was to aim for the touchdown point, and when you think you're 1 foot above the runway, stick back to arrest the sink and level off, then slowly and with much finesse, start easing back on the stick with the thought of "don't let it land, don't let it land, don't let it land" let it settle down to the surface and while looking at the far end of the runway the split second you feel the mains kiss the runway, stick forward just enough to make it "stick" and then hold that level attitude during the rollout until you slow down enough so you can ease the tailwheel down. Of course, this is much easier said than done, but when you finally "get it", it works. Just don't nose over too much but it does take a lot of nose down to make a prop strike. You pretty much have to have a windshield full of pavement for that to happen. I've put my prop vertical and lifted the tail up just to see how far over the plane has to go before the prop would touch, and it's a looong way. If you ever get nosed over that far, you'll already know you're in trouble on a paved runway. A bumpy turf runway is a different story however, and there a 3-point landing is the better choice.
 
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High RPM's?

I'm a 6a driver, but I learned the hard way that if the RPMs are to high, you'll bounce into the next county. John
 
Nice airplane.

It looked like a typical RV-6 landing - the kind I was making when getting acquained last summer. ): Felt really stupid every time it happened. Some were much worse and a go around saved it.

I've had a few similar events in the 8 but not lately. A little forward stick at the right time works - and it helps to be at or slightly ahead of the airplane. Get behind and its a good idea to go around and get caught up with the beast for the next attempt.
 
Looked like a fine approach with a slightly fast touchdown. However, I got the sense that he just froze after the first touchdown. Looked like no attempt at all to keep wings level or adjust pitch. Some instructors advocate sucking the stick in your lap and riding out a pio event, but I think he decided he was all done at the first touch.

Not being critical of this pilot, but I don't think he got "behind" the airplane, I think he completely "left" the airplane. I think we've all been there - this one just happens to be on video.
 
However, I got the sense that he just froze after the first touchdown. Looked like no attempt at all to keep wings level or adjust pitch.

Yep- if you watch carefully, he basically leaves the elevator in the same position as it was at initial touchdown and makes no attempt to do anything about the bounces. The only small thing he did right was not moving the stick forward trying to "catch" the bounce. Sorta made himself a passenger through the whole thing. Not his finest moment to be captured in high quality video. Of course, nobody ever sees the absolute grease jobs. ;)
 
Much better. Still over controlling, but I would take it any day.
I only allow people to video my good landings, hence, there are no video's allowed.....
 
Nothing is easy

Based on the second video I would guess the first video was a 3 point attempt and not a wheel landing attempt. For all those who have told me how easy these RVs are to land, I must admit I'm probably a below average pilot. With even a bit of crosswind or turbulence it becomes a challenge for me.

What I've found is after the initial flare I continue to raise the nose for a nice 3 point landing. But what I often get is a surprise quick loss of that last foot and a touch. If I have any excess airspeed I get a bounce. Just like in the first video. Now what I am really good at is saving these landings. If I have enough runway I just add a bit of power and let it settle again. If I'm short on runway, I just go around. Both choices avoid the dangerous PIO.

I make this confession to let others know what they might not want to say. Every landing is not a good one. Just be ready with the appropriate correction.

Jim
 
Yep, been there, done that in my RV-8. The first three times I tried to land it. Luckily, no one was filming me!

That's why I sucked it up and got lots of tailwheel training in an Xtreme Decathlon over the summer before I tried again.

Now I routinely grease wheel landings and it's the best feeling in the world!
 
Yep, been there, done that in my RV-8. The first three times I tried to land it. Luckily, no one was filming me!

That's why I sucked it up and got lots of tailwheel training in an Xtreme Decathlon over the summer before I tried again.

Now I routinely grease wheel landings and it's the best feeling in the world!

Well, the 8 and the 6 behave quite differently, but your point is not lost.

If your going to bounce, bounce straight.... and above all, keep flying the airplane, all the way to the hangar....
 
I know the hardest thing I have overcome in years of wheel landings... is the reluctance to pin the mains to the surface. You just have that creepy feeling it is going to tip forward and bust your prop.
After you see it work a few times... you have more confidence to really pin it.
Then, excess speed will bleed off as you dance with it down the straight line. And I mean straight.... no exceptions.
(I carry a .22 onboard for stray video cameras and cats too)
 
What I've found is after the initial flare I continue to raise the nose for a nice 3 point landing.

This was my problem when too when trying to wheel land. Now I carry ~1700 rpm through the flare till the wheels touch, then pin it with a bit of forward stick and idle throttle. 3 pointers stay at idle once the field is made.

Still not immune to PIO as I found out the other day with a passenger int he back seat :eek: , decided to throttle up and go around so I could show him what a decent landing looked like!
 
To me it looked like a crosswind 3 point attemp. He got caught up in removing the crab while rounding out and ended up touching the downwind main first, causing the bounce. After that, he was likely overwhelmed and just held on. But then again, it's easy to monday morning quarterback.

My instructor taught me to keep the stick back. Even if I skipped back in the air, for whatever reason, keep the stick back and keep the plane straight. It may be a firm reentry but it won't put the prop on the pavement.
 
He got caught up in removing the crab while rounding out and ended up touching the downwind main first, causing the bounce.

You're actually less prone to bouncing by touching down on one wheel. Some actually use this effect to help wheel landing touchdowns - touch down slightly on one wheel. Reduces bouncing tendency due to the lateral rotational momentum. But it sure looked to me like he touched down with both wheels at almost exactly the same time. I didn't see any significant x-wind effects.
 
Speed.

Hi, have I read you first post correctly do you fly a 4?

If so you should know the answer. This pilot simply came in too fast on the approach bounced off the mains with lift under the wings. if you have too much power on it just gets worse.

The secret for a three pointer is power off and raise the nose to bleed off the speed and let her settle.
 
Upslope?

I watched the video again and noticed a pretty good upslope on the runway at the touchdown point. Might have been a factor. John
 
Good Behavior

Most interesting point for me it that the plane just happily bounces along even wheel to wheel and just keeps going straight with no visible control inputs.

Don Broussard

RV 9 Rebiuld in Progress
 
This thread has been beaten to death with a lot of good points, but there is one that has not been emphasized enough and can benefit 6 builders and flyers. That is the affects of aft CG on flying characteristics and especially landing.

The 6 tends to be tail heavy. Those with wooden or even light composite props are inevitably tail heavy. Add a heavishish pilot and low fuel and I can pretty much garuntee a rearward CG.

When in this condition, the 6 is very prone to the bounce. Also when in this condition, the pitch is very "responsive"/"sensitive"/"twitchy" or any word of your choice. With this pitch sensitivity, the pilot is reluctant to make pitch adjustments in the landing phase because of the tendency to over control.

All of this, along with the gear design, often results in the landing depicted in the video, often with little warning. In this condition, the margin between a good landing and a bouncer is smaller than a mere mortal aviator can control -- a few knots too fast, a bit imperfect flare..BOING.

The point???--- 6 owners and builders need to look very critically at where their CG will be when building and where it is in a flyer. I suggest that if you are experiencing lots of bouncers, look critically at CG. Fill the tanks, add some ballast as far forward as possible and go do touch and go's. You will see and feel a significant difference!!!!!

A 6 with CG towards the front is a much happier airplane all around than one tending aft. BTDT
 
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This thread has been beaten to death with a lot of good points, but there is one that has not been emphasized enough and can benefit 6 builders and flyers. That is the affects of aft CG on flying characteristics and especially landing.

The 6 tends to be tail heavy. Those with wooden or even light composite props are inevitably tail heavy. Add a heavishish pilot and low fuel and I can pretty much garuntee a rearward CG.

When in this condition, the 6 is very prone to the bounce. Also when in this condition, the pitch is very "responsive"/"sensitive"/"twitchy" or any word of your choice. With this pitch sensitivity, the pilot is reluctant to make pitch adjustments in the landing phase because of the tendency to over control.

All of this, along with the gear design, often results in the landing depicted in the video, often with little warning. In this condition, the margin between a good landing and a bouncer is smaller than a mere mortal aviator can control -- a few knots too fast, a bit imperfect flare..BOING.

The point???--- 6 owners and builders need to look very critically at where their CG will be when building and where it is in a flyer. I suggest that if you are experiencing lots of bouncers, look critically at CG. Fill the tanks, add some ballast as far forward as possible and go do touch and go's. You will see and feel a significant difference!!!!!

A 6 with CG towards the front is a much happier airplane all around than one tending aft. BTDT

Yep, and that's what makes a touch of forward stick just as it touches down work so well ...it won't nose over or bounce.
 
This thread has been beaten to death with a lot of good points, but there is one that has not been emphasized enough and can benefit 6 builders and flyers. That is the affects of aft CG on flying characteristics and especially landing.

The 6 tends to be tail heavy. Those with wooden or even light composite props are inevitably tail heavy. Add a heavishish pilot and low fuel and I can pretty much garuntee a rearward CG.

When in this condition, the 6 is very prone to the bounce. Also when in this condition, the pitch is very "responsive"/"sensitive"/"twitchy" or any word of your choice. With this pitch sensitivity, the pilot is reluctant to make pitch adjustments in the landing phase because of the tendency to over control.

All of this, along with the gear design, often results in the landing depicted in the video, often with little warning. In this condition, the margin between a good landing and a bouncer is smaller than a mere mortal aviator can control -- a few knots too fast, a bit imperfect flare..BOING.

The point???--- 6 owners and builders need to look very critically at where their CG will be when building and where it is in a flyer. I suggest that if you are experiencing lots of bouncers, look critically at CG. Fill the tanks, add some ballast as far forward as possible and go do touch and go's. You will see and feel a significant difference!!!!!

A 6 with CG towards the front is a much happier airplane all around than one tending aft. BTDT

Agreed. I added a 20lb Sabre steel crush plate and moved my strobe power pack from the tail to the cabin, yielding a significant improvement in pitch control near the stall, hence improved "landability". I've oft wondered about the feasibility of a titanium tailspring for light-nosed RVs.

-jon
 
This thread has been beaten to death with a lot of good points, but there is one that has not been emphasized enough and can benefit 6 builders and flyers. That is the affects of aft CG on flying characteristics and especially landing.

The 6 tends to be tail heavy. Those with wooden or even light composite props are inevitably tail heavy. Add a heavishish pilot and low fuel and I can pretty much garuntee a rearward CG.

When in this condition, the 6 is very prone to the bounce. Also when in this condition, the pitch is very "responsive"/"sensitive"/"twitchy" or any word of your choice. With this pitch sensitivity, the pilot is reluctant to make pitch adjustments in the landing phase because of the tendency to over control.

All of this, along with the gear design, often results in the landing depicted in the video, often with little warning. In this condition, the margin between a good landing and a bouncer is smaller than a mere mortal aviator can control -- a few knots too fast, a bit imperfect flare..BOING.

The point???--- 6 owners and builders need to look very critically at where their CG will be when building and where it is in a flyer. I suggest that if you are experiencing lots of bouncers, look critically at CG. Fill the tanks, add some ballast as far forward as possible and go do touch and go's. You will see and feel a significant difference!!!!!

A 6 with CG towards the front is a much happier airplane all around than one tending aft. BTDT

Interesting perspective. I tend to make my best landings when heavy and with a relatively aft CG. Go figure.
 
I've oft wondered about the feasibility of a titanium tailspring for light-nosed RVs.

-jon

IIRC, there is an RV-6 out there with a titanium tailwheel stinger out there, but the owner was lucky enough to have the resources of a friend with a machine shop that could machine titanium plus a low or no cost piece of titanium barstock to make it from. Somebody else looked into having a batch of them made and discovered the cost of raw material plus the specialized machining would make them so breathtakingly expensive that it would not be a very practical endeavor.

ETA: Russ McCutcheon's legendary RV-4 has titanium landing gear and tailwheel spring but those were fabricated as one-off designs a long time ago in a galaxy far away.
 
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Been there and done that

I had the exact same problem with my 6. I fought the problem for far to long
when I read somewhere that the CG was to far aft with a light weight starter and a wood prop. I installed the heavy starter, a light weight tail wheel and about 5 pounds of lead on top of the battery box. That made a world of difference.
Wheel landing are a real pleasure. Very little bouncing when I do mess ups landing. Also made a it much easer to hold a stable approach much.
Rich
N721ET
 
IIRC, there is an RV-6 out there with a titanium tailwheel stinger out there, but the owner was lucky enough to have the resources of a friend with a machine shop that could machine titanium plus a low or no cost piece of titanium barstock to make it from...

I've done a couple of Ti stingers for some of my airplanes. I source the material from a surplus dealer named Titanium Joe, and the raw stock for one stinger cost about $50 bucks IIRC. I didn't find the machining to be difficult even for my ancient, worn out West Bend lathe, but the tooling does need to remain sharp.

29104d1387314417-tailwheel-experimental-pacer-tailwheels.jpg
 
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I've done a couple of Ti stingers for some of my airplanes. I source the material from a surplus dealer named Titanium Joe, and the raw stock for one stinger cost about $50 bucks IIRC. I didn't find the machining to be difficult even for my ancient, worn out West Bend lathe, but the tooling does need to remain sharp.

29104d1387314417-tailwheel-experimental-pacer-tailwheels.jpg

Beautiful. What was the weight savings part-to-part?
 
Beautiful. What was the weight savings part-to-part?

Frankly, I never had an "original" to work with, but Ti is about 60% the weight of steel IIRC. I built the socket on the Pacer (on the right) to accept a standard Aviation Products stainless stinger if I needed to play games with the CG. The stainless part will add about 5 pounds if the thing ends up nose heavy.
 
Bounce

Does anyone know where I can buy the fiberglass bottom of the rudder for an 6A? Had a bounce at CDK last Sunday.
 
Does anyone know where I can buy the fiberglass bottom of the rudder for an 6A? Had a bounce at CDK last Sunday.

At the risk of stating the obvious, call Vans and ask for the fiberglass rudder bottom fairing.

However if your A-model had a bounce bad enough to hit the rudder fairing on the runway, a very thorough inspection of the rudder, hinge line to vertical stabilizer including rod ends and jam nuts, and vertical stabilizer itself (and perhaps aft fuselage bulkheads) is in order. Maybe the main gear as well?
 
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