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How do I avoid smilies?

BillL

BillL

Well Known Member
To this point i have managed to avoid using the rivet gun to set nearly any -4 rivets. Setting flush rivets is no problem, setting -3 universal head seems fine. I use the squeezer when possible. I just can not seem to consistently avoid a side strike with -4's. I have am using a straight set, and it seems a new rivet head slides around in the polished cup, then during the set the universal head seems to hit in the center and flatten, making it nearly impossible to avoid a side strike.

SOoooo . . . is me ?

Is it pressure? i am at 80 psi and use a short burst of about 3 strikes per pulse.

Should the set fit the head of the rivet closer? - - -it seems to slide around some? Do i have a defective set?

It is essential that i learn to do this very consistently. Hammer me . . .
 
80 psi sounds way to high.. you should be able to hold the gun on the rivet without it jumping off.. start low and work up.. I also started with some plastic caps that go over the end of the rivet set, helps teach you how to stay on the rivet. I got them from Avery,, but I can't find them on their site.
 
I had good luck putting 1 or 2 small squares of duct tape over the end of the rivet set to prevent smilies. You will have to replace it every 4-5 rivets, but there aren't too many an470 rivets that you cant squeeze anyway. With my 3x rivet gun and a tungsten bucking bar I can easily set -4 rivets at 40-45psi and -3 rivets at 30-35 psi, but YMMV with your equipment.
 
-4 Rivets

I have recently modified my technique for holding the gun. I am palming the gun with the heal of the gun in the palm of my hand. This seems to eliminate the eccentric forces associated with holding the gun by the handle. I seem to be getting better results this way. I also think there is a fair bit of difference in the sets. Masking tape on the set prevents marring of the factory head. 50 psi seems to be adequate for the -4's unless the structure is extremely rigid.
 
Well, I will definitely experiment with some lower pressures. I will also give a go at the duct-tape method to cushion the blows.

Regarding the set, I have an Avery set, and yes it is listed as the correct one for -4's. But . . . the polished cup is definitely larger than the -4 squeezer sets. If i place the rivet head in the set and slide it sideways, it is twice the movement in the gun set vs the squeezer set. I will leave this until last to check out, as the pressure is clearly too high.

Thanks for the quick replies!! I will do this fresh in the morning and post results.

--sorry: masking tape
 
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I have no idea what pressure I used but it was nowhere near 80. Get a swivel regular and put it on the gun. Keep your PSI at 80 at the compressor. Strike the gun on a wooden table and adjust the swivel regulator until it just feels right (controllable). I had a very long hose run from my compressor regulator to the gun. The end result is that the air 'jumps' through the hose in an erratic manner and sometimes makes the gun harder to control (very noticeable in my shop). Kicking up the pressure at the compressor and using a swivel regulator on the gun helps cut that down. As I wrote I above I have no idea what pressure I used at the gun. It's a 'feel' thing as much as anything.

Also, use any reflection in the aluminum to help you ensure that you have the rivet gun straight. Your eyes can play tricks on you.
 
Push on the gun

If you put pressure on the gun with palm of your hand on the butt of the gun, while supporting the work, it won't bounce off the
Rivet and cause a smile on the factory head. However you do it, you need
Hand pressure on the gun.
 
For my Avery 2X gun, I used 35# for 3-3 flush rivetes. I started at 45# for 4-4 universal rivets and would increase the airpressure as the length of the rivet went up. Unless I was using an offset, I never used more that 65#. The off-set needed a bit more, but not much.

When you can, Squeeze. When I first started, I thought it was pretty tough to squeeze a 4-4 universal. It gets easier.
 
Trigger let off

It is my understanding that a smiley occurs when you pull away from the rivet before letting off the trigger. (Ever so slighty) Now, obviously you wouldn't intentionally do this; but for me I think it subconsciously occurred whenever I would get tired or complacent. I could always remedy the situation by "consciously" apply pressure - pull trigger - let off trigger - relieve pressure. Whilst keeping things perpendicular and so on, etc.
 
Lionclaw said:
I had good luck putting 1 or 2 small squares of duct tape over the end of the rivet set to prevent smilies. You will have to replace it every 4-5 rivets, but there aren't too many an470 rivets that you cant squeeze anyway. With my 3x rivet gun and a tungsten bucking bar I can easily set -4 rivets at 40-45psi and -3 rivets at 30-35 psi, but YMMV with your equipment.
Click to expand...

I was shown a trick by fellow builders here in Ottawa to use a strip of Hockey Pad tape (clear stretchy plastic tape.. with little residue). Its an inch wide so you can place quite a few rivets, tape em, and set them (I use 50 PSI for 4s...30 to 35 for 3s)

You can see the heads, the thick tape both adds anti skid and reduces the shock. Its cheap. It works quite well. The only 'downside' is the tape does cut on the rivet head occasionally, so make sure you peel any leftover bits off of the head when you remove the strip.
 
Dbro172 said:
It is my understanding that a smiley occurs when you pull away from the rivet before letting off the trigger. (Ever so slighty) Now, obviously you wouldn't intentionally do this; but for me I think it subconsciously occurred whenever I would get tired or complacent. I could always remedy the situation by "consciously" apply pressure - pull trigger - let off trigger - relieve pressure. Whilst keeping things perpendicular and so on, etc.
Click to expand...

Sure, this can happen. Done it. Had to fix it. Many times it was a matter of the work moving away from the gun. Make sure it is held well. As with some other posts in this thread, I have experienced the situation where I could not prevent smiles no matter how hard I held the gun. It bounced. For me, it was an adjustment on pressure plus a flow restrictor that I have in the bottom of the gun. Adjusting them changed the hit plus the hit rate and eliminated the bounce and obviously the smiles.

My gun is a 3x and "well experienced". I did find that there was a fairly large range of pressure adjustment (like 35 to 70psi) going from AD3 skin rivets to the long AD4s that are used in the structure, especially if the set was long or offset. Maybe it is my gun. Since i'm done, its not an issue anymore ;)
 
I had to drill out two -4 smilies this week while setting a number without them. What frustrates me is I don't have a handle on excatly why they occurred. It probably is a combination of letting up on a the set while still hammering away and/or not being on the rivet square. Being on the rivet square is a challenge when doing it solo holding the bar over an edge, sometime 24" away.

65 psi is what seems to work best for 4's, 35 for 3's. Also, the length of the rivet matters. The short 4-4 rivets set easy, the 4-9's don't seem to go as easy. Could be some of the energy is lost in the length of the rivet.

I always squeeze if possible. No smilies there. :)
 
Tape

I use duct tape or masking tape over the rivet set. My horizontal stab is full of smileys. After I started using tape I stopped getting smileys.

BillL said:
To this point i have managed to avoid using the rivet gun to set nearly any -4 rivets. Setting flush rivets is no problem, setting -3 universal head seems fine. I use the squeezer when possible. I just can not seem to consistently avoid a side strike with -4's. I have am using a straight set, and it seems a new rivet head slides around in the polished cup, then during the set the universal head seems to hit in the center and flatten, making it nearly impossible to avoid a side strike.

SOoooo . . . is me ?

Is it pressure? i am at 80 psi and use a short burst of about 3 strikes per pulse.

Should the set fit the head of the rivet closer? - - -it seems to slide around some? Do i have a defective set?

It is essential that i learn to do this very consistently. Hammer me . . .
Click to expand...
 
This guide has worked great for setting the right pressures on various sized rivets. If you use a longer rivet set, you will need to bump up the pressure.

Every time I have had issues with riveting it has come down to air pressure settings either too high or too low.

I also found that the plastic covers that Avery sell work great, but they don't last very long. Buy several packages.
 
Those pressures appear to be for a 2X gun. If you're using a 3X gun you'll want to reduce them significantly.

Please bear in mind, that when people talk about pressures, they're referencing a particular size rivet gun and the pressures need to change as the gun size changes. Different brands of the same size gun will have different characteristics, too.

Dave
 
Newton's Cradle

One thing to keep in mind is that the rivet set should not bang against the rivet. You want to maintain a solid connection. The energy will transfer well. It's akin to this:

1847_executivereactionary_1.jpg


Dave
 
How to fix a smiley itself?

So far my "vast" experience is based on completion of a Toolbox training project and my thought is that a smiley is in the aluminum... It is a skewed rivet and a half-round impression on the sheet. Is this right?
If so, then how can the half-round impression be fixed? I see you guys say you fix this, but I think that fix is only applied to the bad rivet, which is drilled out and a new one is driven in. The smiley itself remains there. Is this all correct?
So can this be fixed?
 
I must admit that I'm still working my way up the learning curve on the -4 rivets. They are more difficult to set than the -3 rivets. I have found a couple of things that are helpful. First I set the pressure around 45#. Second I find that a heavier bucking bar helps. I am a solo riveter so I find that if I dont keep pressure on the head of the rivet the set will move away from the head and you will get a smiley. If you are solo riveting you have to keep the right balance of pressure on the gun versus the bucking bar. So make sure you keep more pressure on the gun. If the bar was to move away from the shop head it probably won't cause a problem unless it slides off or is angled. If the set slides off the head you will need to drill it out and start over. I have drilled out many of these. :D
 
Snap Socs

21 replies and nobody has mentioned Snap Socs yet?

http://www.yardstore.com/browse.cfm/4,5933.html

They do make you lazy though - I don't set a 1/8" rivet without them, and if I tried I'm sure it wouldn't turn out worth a darn. I seem to have little problem with each one lasting 40-50 rivets easily. Why are they so expensive? Because they're worth it!
 
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as others have mentioned please double check that you have the right rivet set. it should not overlap on the sides but be a little smaller than the rivet head leaving a visible edge of the rivet when placed on the head straight. The next size up looks like it fits but it kind of covers the edge of the rivet head, if you see this it is probably the wrong size. The smaller size is obviously too small and would leave a circle on the rivet head if shot.

bird
 
All Smiles, but no Smilies . . . .

OK, i have the Avery 3x gun (bought new) and did some experimenting today. Here are my conclusions (confirming recommendations from posters here) My smilies were not on the rivet head, but on the base material.

1. Pressure is very important, 50-65 psi is a good range for -4 rivets
2. heavier sets take more air pressure: it took 5 more psi for the long offset than the short straight set.
3. Heaver, stiffer structure takes more pressure, it took +5 psi (short set) to actually set the rivet.
4. Light weight bucking bar also requires higher pressure than a heavy one.
5. Tape, masking and duct tape both provide additional clearance and cushioning, also they protect the head and it looks nicer after setting.
6. i was always holding my gun with the heel in my palm, and it really helps keep direct line of action should something bounce, but it won't bounce with the proper pressure ( low). This is particularly helpful with a swivel set for flush when solo to keep the set from walking off.

I double checked the set and it is correct per Avery site, but I still have a nagging feeling that the dimensions of the set are very critical and will discuss this with Avery to get their opinion. It seems the depth, shape and clearance to the parent material are very important. The rivet is much more loose that in the squeezer -4 set. I will post if modifications to provide some additional relief works.

Oh - - yes the "snap-socs" , i will definitely be getting some of these things.

Thanks again for all the considerate posts.

Sorry for the delay, I accidentally posted this to a parallel thread, so i copied and reposted here :D
 
listen

If you gun is hitting twice, and the bar is making contact once, then its either mass or how firmly you are holding the bar. You should be able to hear this, and I believe it's the number one cause of smiles. The structure springs under the load because it was not transmitted through to the bar, and that drives the set off the rivet, the next blow, the bar is in contact but the set isn't square, resulting in a smile. Tape, and holding square treats symptoms. The bar mass, gun air pressure, and hand pressure on both tools needs to be matched. Ear muffs, not plugs, will help you hear this if you are listening for it.
 
Use Black Gorilla Tape (home depot) and lots of pressure on the gun and don’t put too much pressure on the bar. Make sure the part is VERY secure. You don’t need the socks just the tape. This fixed all my 470 problems.
 
Light trick

Place one lights 90 degrees to where your eyes are so it both throws a shadow of your rivet gun on the sheet. The shadow will tell you if you are holding the gun square to the work in the plane your eye is not.
 
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