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cguarino

Well Known Member
I have a question for the group. I took off Sunday in nice VMC and climbed to 12,500. My route of flight showed lots of thunderstorms but nothing I couldn't pick my way through using the XM weather. After about and hour of going around thunder bumpers I found myself clear of all the storms but over an overcast. This didn't bother me to much because my destination METAR was SKC. However, I noticed that the airfields under me were coded red. A quick check revealed that most of the airports for the next 100 miles were 300-500 overcast. This was unexpected because I had checked the wx at few fields along my route of flight and none were calling for low ceilings like this. I basically bracketed the low weather when I did my wx check. So, here I am with thunderstorms behind me, an undercast from about 2500 to 300 feet for the next 100 miles and a destination calling good wx. I had two choices. Press ahead or turn around and deal with the thunderstorms and find a airport to land. I chose to press. Now I had a while to think about the situation I was in. As long as the motor kept running I had no problem but if it quit, I was going to have my hands full. I fly a -4 and always wear a parachute. So I started thinking about my plan if it did quit. As much as I wanted to say land it, I kept coming up with the best solution would be to attempt a restart until about 3000 and prior to going into the wx, jettison the airplane. I just didn't think the chance of success was very good for flying a flameout, made up on the fly GPS approach to an unknown field and breaking out at 300 feet. Plus once I got below 2000 the jumping out option was gone. I had thought about this for night flying some but I had not considered this scenario. Luckily she purred all the way to my destination as she should but I'm wondering what y'all think the best COA would be if the engine quit in this situation. Please don't focus on how I got there. The question is jump out or try to land. What ceiling is required if you try to land?
 
You're asking for some serious flaming throwing in this forum with that scenario. I'm staying out of it.
 
I'll bite

The chute would be mighty tempting in that scenario, although it's an option that is nearly as scary (for me, at least, even having done one tandem jump) as descending into IMC with no engine and low ceilings. Another consideration would be whether you are over a populated area. "Jettisoned airplane" sounds a whole lot like "missile" to me. Though you'd probably be alive, it would be pretty horrible to have to explain why someone else potentially wasn't due to a poor wx decision. Then again, even if you stayed with it and tried to land, the outcome might be the same in terms of crashing into a populated area.
 
In the case of an engine out with no cause found and no restart.....

Xavion on even an I phone velcroed to the panel would have provided a path to a threshold if you had practiced with it set up for your 4.( provided one was within reach) Perhaps there is not room for an I pad in a 4. Almost any of the X96 garmins would have found you a lake or road....

A good situation NOT to be in, but not much different than single engine night VFR over unlandable terrain.
 
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Exactly

A good situation NOT to be in, but not much different than single engine night VFR over unlandable terrain.

I expected folk to flame me for being there but it is almost exactly like flying at night over unsuitable areas. I actually have a built in computer running AnywhereMap and I can call up a virtual ILS to most airports. Still I think it would be tough to get right.
 
I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. Although it's best to minimize risk whenever possible, there are always going to be those times when an engine out could be pretty bad. Takeoffs, night flying, IFR in IMC, flying over the mountains, flying over water, etc, happen every day and also could all end up pretty bad if the engine quit at the wrong time.

Make good choices and learn from the ones you don't feel so great about.

I think in your situation I would have done the same.
 
I actually have a built in computer running AnywhereMap and I can call up a virtual ILS to most airports. Still I think it would be tough to get right.

Have you programed a virtual ILS using the space shuttle approach a no-power landing would require? Practiced them? Definitely a varsity move, IMO. I, too, would jettison a VFR glider about to enter IMC over some non-yellow part of the sectional, full nose down trim before stepping out.
 
This story makes me glad for my IFR training. I also would never jump from a perfectly good glider. My RV-9 stalls at 41 kts. and a 40kts collision even into a wall is usually one you will walk away from. Like you said this is not much different than night flying. Always know where you are and have an out.
Your RV-4 may not have the instrumentation but I do. I always have a out set on the radio, GPS and NAV. Belt and suspenders.
 
We get to places like this at times. How is for another thread.
Finding yourself there is difficult and decision time. I would not follow the bail out thinking route... for a number of reasons. Structural failure would be different. A few friends were killed in a Commander a while back at night. Flew straight into terrain. The simplest Garmin, used, for a few hundred bucks on barnstormers would have lit up bright red and possibly saved them.
Portables also have a panel page... though derived from the GPS data only in most cases. Staying in control of the plane with heading and glide path is crucial. Use or purchase something that will allow that. If the engine quits, head for low flat terrain. Set up best glide. You do fly with shoulder harnesses I presume? Ask for help. A no gyro scenario guidance is quite interesting if you have not ever done it. Center and or approach can give you start/stop turn advisories and take you right to a runway with partial panel situations. File a NASA report and learn from experience. And kudos for asking in a public forum for options to consider. This small "air Force" has brought more educational resources to our finger tips, than I have seen in 41 years of hard cover books....
 
While this option probably does not apply to this particular airplane, ?didn't I see an app, or software from one of the glass panel makers, that would, with a push of a button, calculate AND FLY, err GLIDE, YOUR A/C ON AUTOPILOT to a short final to a suitable runway? Like 1/4mile final to a runway, into the wind, with a pre-loaded minimum length.
With something like THAT, and a proving practice run under my belt, I'd sure feel better about flying over undercasts.
 
Clarifcation

We get to places like this at times. How is for another thread.
Finding yourself there is difficult and decision time. I would not follow the bail out thinking route... for a number of reasons. Structural failure would be different. A few friends were killed in a Commander a while back at night. Flew straight into terrain. The simplest Garmin, used, for a few hundred bucks on barnstormers would have lit up bright red and possibly saved them.
Portables also have a panel page... though derived from the GPS data only in most cases. Staying in control of the plane with heading and glide path is crucial. Use or purchase something that will allow that. If the engine quits, head for low flat terrain. Set up best glide. You do fly with shoulder harnesses I presume? Ask for help. A no gyro scenario guidance is quite interesting if you have not ever done it. Center and or approach can give you start/stop turn advisories and take you right to a runway with partial panel situations. File a NASA report and learn from experience. And kudos for asking in a public forum for options to consider. This small "air Force" has brought more educational resources to our finger tips, than I have seen in 41 years of hard cover books....

Maybe i was not clear in my OP. I did not fly into IMC. I was always VMC never even close to a cloud. I was perfectly safe and legal and have no reason to file a NASA report. My airplane is equipped with a built in moving map and an EFIS. I am a very experienced and IFR qualified pilot. At no time was there any danger as long as the motor kept turning. The question I'm asking is what if it stopped. This scenario is much like flying at night, flying over mountainous terrain or flying single engine IFR over the area described in my original post. In order to simplify this let's look at it like this, you are IFR but VMC at 10K over an area that is 300 overcast and the motor quits. You are wearing a parachute. Do you attempt the approach or jump out before going into the wx at 3000 feet? Has anyone practiced this? ROT for key positions around the pattern? After thinking about it a little I came up with 2500 AGL min at 5 miles no wind. In my situation I could have attempted to set up for 2500@5 and if it didn't work, jump out then but once i pressed passed that point the bail out option would be gone. I'm just looking for some thoughts and ideas.
 
I don't wear a chute, but if I did, I would bail unless I could glide to an airport with at least 3000'.
 
surprisingly short on opinions

Ok. I've only really had about 4 responses to this question and it is tied up. Has no one considered this situation? Ideas please.
 
I suspect a lot of opinions each with their own risk profile. I flew a Cirrus for around 100 hours, in that case the whole plane has a chute not just the pilot. I went through the Cirrus training where they really encourage to pull the handle is many situations. Personally, as long as the plane is flying and controllable by the pilot, I say fly the airplane all the way to the ground whether prop is spinning or not. Land into the wind if possible, don't stall and do your best to walk away. To me, there is just as good or better chance of personal harm excavating yourself from the plane and pulling the chute and landing the chute safely as their is in the plane with a full seat belt harness securely fashioned.
 
Since you are asking for it......

http://youtu.be/3WLJ-mAbO4s

As you are asking: Single engine failure at 12,500 ft with low cloud deck with perhaps 300 ft below the clouds.

With Xavion running you would know at a glance if there are any runways within gliding distance. You have lots of time to choose one. Cause check and restart. If NO then just fly the Xavion approach to the runway. It works. Providing you have set up the glide ratio for YOUR AC and that you have practiced with it recently.

Land the plane.

However, just like XM WX helped to get you in the hot seat, not a good idea to let the Xavion security blanket magnetize the fly on decision button even more.

As my hair turns a bit more grey, I am happier to listen to the quiet inner voice when it says "not today".
 
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I need less than half of a hand's worth of fingers to count the number of times I've worn a parachute, but I believe I'd ride an airplane all the way down as long as it was controllable and not on fire. Just because there isn't any yellow on the map at your location doesn't mean there aren't people down there (those are the places I prefer to live). I'ts me that took the risk in the first place, so I see it as my responsibility to minimize the danger those who didn't choose to take that risk. Also, I've helped in the recovery of two aircraft that went down in forested areas, and the worst injury was a broken leg.

If I were to bail, and had time, I'd trim for minimum forward speed so as to minimize the energy dissipated on arrival.
 
I would fly the plane and put my skillset to as much use as possible. It's a decision for each of us to make but sending that aircraft into a school bus in order to save my own life would never be a consideration. It wouldn't even cross my mind, despite having 1250ish skydives in the book. Under no circumstances would I trade someone else's life for my own when I'm the one who took the risk. I would fly the plane, attempt to save it and me but if required.......sacrifice both to save an innocent. We have responsibilities up there.
 
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