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Wheel or Three Point?

f14av8r

f14av8r

Well Known Member
Okay, I do realize that I'm opening a bag of worms here but . . .

I just bought and am on my 7th hour of flying my (new to me) RV-4. I love the airplane and my landings so far are passable. Not perfect by any stretch but, considering the fact I've only got 12 hours of tailwheel time total, I'm at least keeping it on centerline and successfully going around when the bounces get too big!

Seriously though, I'd like to hear all you old pro's opinions on wheel vs three point landings. Here are my questions:

What is your norm (wheel / 3 pt) - calm winds, long runway, nice day?
What would be your flap config for various situations?
Short runways?
Soft runways?
Crosswinds?

My central question is when to shoot for a 3 point and when to plan a wheelie.

So far, I've intentionally limited my flying to long, paved runways with minimal winds (early morning). I'm doing 90% wheel landings because I find them more comfortable. So far so good but I'd like to know how all of you deal with the more challenging landing situations in the -4.

I will say the my -4 is MUCH easier to land than that -6 that I did my transition training in!

Appreciate the help!
Randy
 
In hundreds of hours of tailwheel in at least 15-20 different makes/models and lots of tailwheel instruction: I have always preferred 3 point landings because of the slower touchdown speed and consequent shorter landing roll. I typically save wheel landings for crosswind situations when I can afford to use up a bit more runway.

That being said, I also find it easier to wheel land a -4 rather than 3 point it. Nothing wrong with a wheel landing as long as you have plenty of runway. It would be a good idea to exit your comfort zone and get good at 3 points in case you need one for shorter runways.

That's my two cents. If you want the full nickel, I could say more.

Steve
 
I have about 33 hours of TW time and five of that was in a -6 during my transition and TW training. I agree, the -4 feels a whole lot easier than the -6. I've found, for me, it's easier to wheel land my -4, even off my 2600' grass strip. Here lately, I've been mixing it up between 3 pt. and wheel landings. Generally, I go with what feels right when I get in ground effect. There are times when I intend to wheel land and end up 3 pointing instead and vice versa.

For A strong X-wind, I use one notch of flaps and wheel land. Preferably with the upwind wheel touching first. I found this the hard way after the worst landing in my life after a long trip back from Alabama and a 20 kt quartering X-wind. My inexperience locked in full flaps and 3 pt'd. Get home-itis got the best of me, instead of doing the right thing and going to another strip with a favoring runway.

Once your comfortable with your TO's & Lndgs, the next thing to tackle is passenger weight. I started off w/my 110 lb nephew. Didn't even know he was there. Now my 210 lb neighbor is a different story. With a heavier passenger, trim isn't as sensitive and takes a little more effort to wheel land.

Enjoy your -4 and congratulations.
 
My advice to any new tailwheel pilot is to become proficient in both and be able to transition to either without effort.

You may have setup for a 3-point and the wind shifts or your speed is a bit off or it's a new-to-you runway and you realize it's a down slope and you've got plenty of runway so you wheel land. You plan for a wheel land and a gust slows your foward momentum and then dies off and now you're slow so you land 3-point. The reasons for switching it up will be endless. You don't want to have to consciously focus on which type of landing.

On my home runway which is 1900' of grass, I've found myself switching it up as needed.
 
There is a recent post in the general discussion section titled
"Tail Wheel Misadventure"

Post #4 and Post #14 might be of help. Tail Low attitude wheel landings are the easiest and have you at a slower touchdown speed (than a tail high wheel landing) but still with adequate rudder and directional control.

I have about 3K hours of tailwheel time, but only in 4 types. If and when you can get to a nice smooth grass strip, it is much more forgiving.
 
I suppose I'm a bit "weird" in that I find it easiest to 3-point my -4 even three years in with over 200 hours in it.

I only recently started working on wheel landings (the first 2 years were all 3-point) and go do them passably about 3/4 of the time. Often though, I botch it and recover 3-point.

My touchdowns are usually smoother 3-point and I can definitely land shorter that way.

In the end, as everyone else has said it's user preference and one should be able to do both as the need dictates.
 
Scott,

Well put.

I think with a primed airplane, the wheel landing is the way forward.

If unprimed, I would favor the 3 point or at least tail low nearly 3 point.

Correspondents are still a little undecided though
 
I usually 3 point.

Wheel landings work well is higher wind situations, just hold it off until the mains just skim.

One hint that I keep reminding myself of but never seem to master (500 hrs in -4):

Everytime I make a great landing I am flying slower that I thought possible on very short final. Everytime I make a mess of it and end up bunny hopping down the runway I am faster than I wanted to be on short final.

I also end up carrying a bit of power on short final to arrest sink rate at the approach speed. Target over the numbers is 70 mph IAS.

Like everything practice makes perfect but as a golf coach told me once, if you don't practice the right technique you will just get good at doing it wrong.

Same here.
 
To be serious for a moment, I don't think the 4 is stalled in the 3 pount attitude, especially with the older short gear. That is going to make a 3 pointer a bit more difficult than say a champ, where you can stall it on. If you try to slow down to stall you will hit tailwheel first and go kerplop, which I have seen RVs do. You have to get good at getting the touchdown speed juuust right with no descent rate, because if you have any kind of descent rate that spring gear will launch you and the wing is still happily flying. Timing and practise. You will be closest to the stall AOA with full flap so I would expect it to be harder to land with less.

Full disclosure I have not flown my 4 yet though I have a several hundred hrs of TW and a smidge of RV time. I have watched them land very carefully and have seen lots of bouncing and gear shimmy. It does not surprise me at all that the engine mounts get cracks at the gear recepticals. I also video'd a friend in his 6 who was tired and got behind the power curve and the airplane just fell out of the sky in the final 5 ft before he could react. The gear splayed out and I don't know how he avoided a prop strike. So better a bit to fast than a bit too slow and if the speed starts to decay get on the power NOW! That characteristic is a feature of low aspect ratio wings. Very high induced drag at high AOA. No problem if you are prepared and it is not a criticism as those wings have advantages as well.

Mike Seager is who you want to talk to. 20,000 hrs of RV checkout time! However I don't know if he fits in a 4 :p
 
Owned both

Three points with the short gear are a dream, the long gear a little more of a challenge with lest consistent results.

Usually land full flaps, reduce with crosswinds and gusts.
 
I have never tried to wheel the RV4 on, so far I have done about 180 3 pointers with no problems. I have the long gear and havn't flown with short gear. The only times I have ever tried wheel landings I have been disappointed and wondering why i tried. I usually use full flap and that includes about 20 knot X wind with no troubles.
It may help that I have far more hours of tailwheel time than nose wheel.
 
3 point for me

I have about 250hrs., and several hundred landings on my long gear -4, and prefer the 3 point most of the time. Its not as sexy looking, but it really settles in nicely for the 3 point, especially when someone is in the rear seat (almost always for me). Its not uncommon to feel the tailwheel touch just before the mains at times, but in 3 point its at the slowest possible touchdown and keeps wear and tear down when on grass or rough runways. I will shoot a wheelie when landing on long runways, or where spacing (formation/mass fly-ins) require speed to be up. The worst situation is trying to 3 point with too much speed..the bunny hop is almost inevitable if you do.
 
8000+hrs Ag
1000 ish RV-4 ( my Company ute)
Three point leaves little or no flying speed if you bugger it up.
High tail landings are harder on the gear than it needs to be.
Tail low is a good compromise and leaves you with the all important safety margin. It can get pretty ugly real quick if you bounce or a gust gets you with no flying speed for those small adjustments.
'Any landing is a good landing if you can walk away, its a better landing if you can reuse the aircraft!'
 
Tail low

salto said:
Tail low is a good compromise and leaves you with the all important safety margin.
Click to expand...

My short geared FP -4 is well behaved both 2 & 3 pts are fine. 2pts become a little harder to nail nicely with someone in the back, as expected. Tail low touch-downs do work well, but out of habit I get the tail up so the days I fly an airplane that doesn't have such great rudder authority in a 'between' attitude doesn't bite me. Wheelies typically add only 100' to my roll when i use the tail low method.
 
its really a matter of personal choice. the 4 is a pussycat either way.

bob burns
rv-4 N82RB
 
n82rb said:
its really a matter of personal choice. the 4 is a pussycat either way.

bob burns
rv-4 N82RB
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At the end of all the passionate bias and opinions one way or the other, the above statement pretty much sums it up...with RVs at least. I find interesting the viewpoint that 3-pointers are "less safe". With only 5,800 tailwheel landings in my logbook, I'm a newbie compared to some others here, but 90% of these were 3-pointers, and I haven't had any close calls yet because I chose to do a 3-pointer vs. a wheelie.
 
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Wheel vrs 3 point

I'm sorry but after many thousands of TW hours I think it is a bit of a myth that you need to wheel land in a cross wind. Yes of course I can do it, but why?

If you land with a direct cross wind, I will agree: you can stick it on the runway with a lot more cross wind component than landing with a three point. The problem is you still need to get the tail down on the runway and you cannot put the tailwheel down in most taildraggers until you are at or nearly at stall speed. This is because most taildraggers are built so that the deck angle setting on the ground is at (or exceeds) the wings stall angle of attack.

If, after pinning the mains on during an extreme crosswind, I am on the ground with the mains rolling with the tail still up, as I slow the rudder becomes less effective at keeping me straight by shoving the tail into the crosswind. The slower I get the less my ability to keep the slowing plane aligned with the runway. Should it occur that I run out of rudder authority prior to being below stall speed I will depart the runway into the wind.

If I were to attempt to land on the same runway three point I would most likely go some where else if I could not get enough rudder at stall speed to keep the plane in alignment with the runway. The difference is with the 3 point I will know this with no ground contact, but with the wheel landing I find it out with the mains ( perhaps only one up wind wheel) firmly on the ground.

Whether I wheel land or 3 point the tail has to come down at or near stall speed, with the 3 point this all occurs at the same time and you do not have those moments in between as the rudder looses effectiveness while the tail wheel is not yest in contact firmly on the runway.
 
Depends

I wheel land if solo, and three point it with someone >100 lbs in the back. I find it very easy to wheel land it with more weight up front, but much tougher with someone more than about 120 lbs in the back.

I have the tall gear and often feel the rear wheel just barely touch before the mains make contact when I three point it.

Have fun!
 
There is no best way to do it - only pilots (including myself) who think there is. :) :) :)

If new to TW operations find what is best for you. Borrow or steal good techniques developed by experts but only if they work for you. Flying with an instructor is good but at some point he will have passed on all he knows and then it is time to find what you are made of and do your own thing.

The important thing is do not wreck an airplane.
 
Rick RV-4 said:
I wheel land if solo, and three point it with someone >100 lbs in the back. I find it very easy to wheel land it with more weight up front, but much tougher with someone more than about 120 lbs in the back.

I have the tall gear and often feel the rear wheel just barely touch before the mains make contact when I three point it.

Have fun!
Click to expand...

Great advice based on my VERY limited experience. I've flown a couple of pax so far and it is definitely more difficult to keep that tail up when attempting the wheel landing.

I've been experimenting the last couple of days and find I can do fairly consistent wheel landings by myself but, if I put some ballast (animate or inanimate) in the back, I tend to do better with a tail low - modified wheel landing or a three pointer.

One things for sure. If there is weight in the back, I find I really have to STICK the landing with positive forward stick once I get those mains on the deck.

Thanks everybody for the great input. Nothing like learning from the masters!
Randy
 
Here's the advice I got a while ago from a trusted test pilot and RV-8 owner. After 2yrs flying the -4, I think he is spot on and I have only recently began wheel landings, but I still prefer 3 point.

"As for the wheel landings, yes, they are a lot of fun. But there were some guys on the VAF website who said that the RV-8 was hard to 3-point. Nobody told me that when I started flying my RV-8, and I've made maybe 5 wheel landings in 7 years of flying. In the high wing airplanes, like the Cub and my Luscombe, wheel landings are a necessity, particularly in crosswinds. But you will find that the low wing RVs are quite good in cross winds, so the necessity is much less. What I think is incorrect is to regularly make wheel landings in an airplane that Van designed to operate off short airfields (his original strip was 600'). So what they are doing is wearing out wheels, tires, and brakes doing wheel landings for nothing. Go figure. While great wheel landings require practice and some talent, so do perfect 3-point landings. Watch P-51s and you will find almost 100% wheel landings. But you didn't do that in WWII on 2500' strips. Have a look at Kermit Weeks and his "kermi cam" flying the P-51C. He does a beautiful 3-point on his grass strip in Florida, like nobody told him to do otherwise. My 2 cents."
 
Boyd Birchler said:
I'm sorry but after many thousands of TW hours I think it is a bit of a myth that you need to wheel land in a cross wind. Yes of course I can do it, but why?

If you land with a direct cross wind, I will agree: you can stick it on the runway with a lot more cross wind component than landing with a three point. The problem is you still need to get the tail down on the runway and you cannot put the tailwheel down in most taildraggers until you are at or nearly at stall speed. This is because most taildraggers are built so that the deck angle setting on the ground is at (or exceeds) the wings stall angle of attack.

If, after pinning the mains on during an extreme crosswind, I am on the ground with the mains rolling with the tail still up, as I slow the rudder becomes less effective at keeping me straight by shoving the tail into the crosswind. The slower I get the less my ability to keep the slowing plane aligned with the runway. Should it occur that I run out of rudder authority prior to being below stall speed I will depart the runway into the wind.

If I were to attempt to land on the same runway three point I would most likely go some where else if I could not get enough rudder at stall speed to keep the plane in alignment with the runway. The difference is with the 3 point I will know this with no ground contact, but with the wheel landing I find it out with the mains ( perhaps only one up wind wheel) firmly on the ground.

Whether I wheel land or 3 point the tail has to come down at or near stall speed, with the 3 point this all occurs at the same time and you do not have those moments in between as the rudder looses effectiveness while the tail wheel is not yest in contact firmly on the runway.
Click to expand...


You cant generalize about this subject.
whether you wheel it or 3 pt it in a xwind depends on the airplane. The rvs handle well in either case. Im an old fart whole learned tailwheel from real old timers. They flew airplanes that had poor aileron effect at stall speeds. If you stalled one on in 3 pt you could not keep the wing down. Its not always about the rudder. Try 3 pointing a,swift on. You can but you are asking for trouble because the flaps blank the elevator in the 3 point attitude. Every airplane is different and the technique to be used depends on the flying qualities of the airplane. I know my preference...ofcourse everyone has their opinion. Never ending debate...

Cm
 
Draggin tail...

f14av8r said:
Okay, I do realize that I'm opening a bag of worms here but . . .

I just bought and am on my 7th hour of flying my (new to me) RV-4. I love the airplane and my landings so far are passable. Not perfect by any stretch but, considering the fact I've only got 12 hours of tailwheel time total, I'm at least keeping it on centerline and successfully going around when the bounces get too big!

Seriously though, I'd like to hear all you old pro's opinions on wheel vs three point landings. Here are my questions:

What is your norm (wheel / 3 pt) - calm winds, long runway, nice day?
What would be your flap config for various situations?
Short runways?
Soft runways?
Crosswinds?

My central question is when to shoot for a 3 point and when to plan a wheelie.

So far, I've intentionally limited my flying to long, paved runways with minimal winds (early morning). I'm doing 90% wheel landings because I find them more comfortable. So far so good but I'd like to know how all of you deal with the more challenging landing situations in the -4.

I will say the my -4 is MUCH easier to land than that -6 that I did my transition training in!

Appreciate the help!
Randy
Click to expand...

Randy,
Hello from a former Central FL resident (FD33)!!! I grew up towing banners in FL with Scouts and Cubs and consider the RV4 a pussycat compared to those in a crosswind. My 2 cents:

I keep it simple, if the strip is soft and short (less than 1200') I do a 3 point with a 60 knot approach speed, power on till touchdown.
Why? Shorter landing distance and I can retract flaps, hold full aft stick and have better prop clearance form rocks, tall grass and critters.

If paved, and longer than 2000' I wheels land every time. Why? Better visibility, rudder authority and easier on the gear, tailwheel spring. Also, I personally like it better in a crosswind.

Cya!
Smokey
 
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smokyray said:
Randy,
Hello from a former Central FL resident (FD33)!!! I grew up towing banners in FL with Scouts and Cubs and consider the RV4 a pussycat compared to those in a crosswind. My 2 cents:

I keep it simple, if the strip is soft and short (less than 1200') I do a 3 point with a 60 knot approach speed, power on till touchdown.
Why? Shorter landing distance and I can retract flaps, hold full aft stick and have better prop clearance form rocks, tall grass and critters.

If paved, and longer than 2000' I wheels land every time. Why? Better visibility, rudder authority and easier on the gear, tailwheel spring. Also, I personally like it better in a crosswind.

Cya!
Smokey
Click to expand...

.....Amen!....
 
smokyray said:
  • if the strip is soft and short (less than 1200') I do a 3 point with a 60 knot approach speed, power on till touchdown.
  • If paved, and longer than 2000' I wheels land every time.
Click to expand...

I'm curious for the other cases - grass strips longer that 2000' and anything between 1200' and 2000'?
 
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humptybump said:
I'm curious for the other cases - grass strips longer that 2000' and anything between 1200' and 2000'?
Click to expand...

I flew the RV-8 out of the Troy Airpark (MO) until just recently (we moved), 2200' hard surface, about 1400' of parallel grass. Take offs were always the asphalt and most landings on the grass. Trees were a factor so the effective runway was actually less for both runways.

I could not do a nice 3 pointer (and still can't) with the 8, so it was wheel landings coming over the trees at about 65 knots, flare with a little power, wheel it on and stop, usually much less than 1000' depending on wind and on the grass length. The turf is like a speed brake.

You can brake before the tail comes down if done carefully, just lay off it as the tail comes down.

I do not believe there is a landing distance advantage 3 pointing it unless final is flown at stall plus almost nothing. If any speed must be dissipated to get into 3 point attitude after flare, that's runway behind the airplane. With the wheel landing you can spike it on where you want it and speed drops of quickly.

Just my technique, it works for me. I have the worst landings somedays on 5000'x50' of concrete. The airplane has to be straight and it has to be near the surface for a good landing and somedays your depth perception jumps the tracks going from a 25' wide runway to one 50' wide. It does no good (for me) to look down the runway, what works best is a side ways glance at edge markers or whatever is there to look at.
 
David-aviator said:
I do not believe there is a landing distance advantage 3 pointing it unless final is flown at stall plus almost nothing. If any speed must be dissipated to get into 3 point attitude after flare, that's runway behind the airplane. With the wheel landing you can spike it on where you want it and speed drops of quickly.
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That assumes you lack the ability to manage your energy such that you touch down exactly where you want - even 3-point. I'd take that bet. :)
 
luddite42 said:
That assumes you lack the ability to manage your energy such that you touch down exactly where you want - even 3-point. I'd take that bet. :)
Click to expand...

Could be I lack the ability to "manage energy" as you say, but that being said I do not care fly final on the edge of a stall with power unless necessary, certainly not to prove a point, know it is standard ops in a super cub and 400' of landing area, have ridden through a few of those with a favorite uncle in AK, but never did it myself.
He used to chide me, I could do a cat3 on the airline but knew little of flying a cub. :)
 
Best RV-8 landing example I've seen...and heck it's not even in the US. Good thing nobody on VAF told this guy the RV-8 doesn't 3-point well. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwPozNnEg6g

It's not about flying your approach on the edge of a stall. Just energy management, aircraft familiarity, and practice.
 
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I agree with Bob Burns. RV-4 is a great landing airplane. I now have about 50 hours in my RV-4, but 1400 in a bunch of other t/w types. I typically always land it 3 point and full flaps. Trim to 75mph IAS hands off, power off slowing to 70 over the fence and it will land like on rails. Mine is short gear and isn't fully stalled in three point and is easy to over flare and balloon or hit tailwheel first. My Starduster Too was the same way so I was used to this.

I'm not big on wheel landings, but can do either equally well. I prefer the slower touch down speed of a three point plus having the tailwheel on the ground improves ground control without using brakes...which must be used very judiciously on rollout, especially with the tail up.
 
JimRice said:
I agree with Bob Burns. RV-4 is a great landing airplane. I now have about 50 hours in my RV-4, but 1400 in a bunch of other t/w types. I typically always land it 3 point and full flaps. Trim to 75mph IAS hands off, power off slowing to 70 over the fence and it will land like on rails. Mine is short gear and isn't fully stalled in three point and is easy to over flare and balloon or hit tailwheel first. My Starduster Too was the same way so I was used to this.

I'm not big on wheel landings, but can do either equally well. I prefer the slower touch down speed of a three point plus having the tailwheel on the ground improves ground control without using brakes...which must be used very judiciously on rollout, especially with the tail up.
Click to expand...

Jim, I agree with you. I use the same speeds but in knots converted it's 65 approach, 60 knots over the numbers. My worst landings have been when I was not flying those speeds. Overall though, it lands like a dream in 3 point attitude.
 
David-aviator said:
I do not believe there is a landing distance advantage 3 pointing it unless final is flown at stall plus almost nothing. If any speed must be dissipated to get into 3 point attitude after flare, that's runway behind the airplane.
Click to expand...

If the same approach speed is used for both landing techniques and the landing is executed properly the 3 point landing should be shorter every time... It is basic physics.

The amount of lift a wing produces is a factor of speed through the air vs angle of attack.
A wing near stall angle of attack (as in just before 3 point touch down) and a wing on an airplane in level flight just before touch down for a wheel landing, are producing the same amount of lift... but the one on the airplane doing a wheel landing has to be at a much higher airspeed.

When the angle off attack on a wing begins to increase, the induced drag goes up dramatically also (that is what flying behind the power curve is related too... increase the pitch attitude, and you have to increase the power because drag is increasing).
A properly executed 3 point landing is started in the round out to transition to level flight over the runway just like it is for the wheel landing but it is continued into a full flair to touch down. This results in a rapid increase in AOA with the resultant rapid increase in induced drag (causes rapid reduction in airspeed) as the airplane nears touch down, so the speed at touchdown will always be slower.
In the wheel landing, the airplane is still in a nearly level attitude... no increase in induced drag, so little to no speed reduction prior to touch down.

Since the energy needing to be dissipated to bring the airplane to a stop is related to the square of the velocity (assuming both airplanes are the same weight), any extra airspeed at touchdown (the earliest time that brakes can be applied) is going to have a significant impact on landing distance.

So, if the same approach speed (1.2-1.3 X Vso) is used for both landing techniques, and the round out is started at exactly the same point relative to the runway, the 3 point landing will always be shorter, and could be significantly so, depending on the approach speed used (because of that velocity squared thing).

Not meaning to argue the debate of 3 point vs wheel landing... just emphasize that I think people who wheel land all the time because they think that is all that works, should get proficient in both.... you never know when landing distance and nailing a specific touch down point will be high on the needed skills list (think forced landing to small field).
 
Excellent post rvbuilder2002! Nice analysis. As you suggest, I'm determined to hone both methods. I really appreciate all the superb feedback here. This thread should be mandatory reading for any new tailwheel pilot. It's better than a lot of the books I studied before my transition training!
 
I've noticed in the RV-4 and the RV-8, that about 10 MPH is scrubbed off making the round-out from the final approach slope to the runway. (after clearing trees)
Our residential airpark often has a nasty shifty croswind, sometimes with a 'rotor'.
This can require a lot of flight path correction and some quick aileron input.
I prefer to keep some speed reserve for control authority and to prevent a stall.
Yet the final round-out scrubs off 10 MPH, and after the touch down the grass pulls the speed right down.
Excess speed on a 'rolling strip' will catapult the plane back into the air. If this happens, keep the 3 point angle of attack and the plane will settle back in. If it pushed you too high, a little shot of power will settle it rather than hitting hard and bouncing. Be ready to 'go around' if the runway is short, or too much of it is behind you.
 
I read this thread and then went and made 2 of the worst landings I've ever made in the -4. Just practice and find what works for you!
 
SHIPCHIEF said:
I've noticed in the RV-4 and the RV-8, that about 10 MPH is scrubbed off making the round-out from the final approach slope to the runway. (after clearing trees)
Our residential airpark often has a nasty shifty croswind, sometimes with a 'rotor'.
This can require a lot of flight path correction and some quick aileron input.
I prefer to keep some speed reserve for control authority and to prevent a stall.
Yet the final round-out scrubs off 10 MPH, and after the touch down the grass pulls the speed right down.
Excess speed on a 'rolling strip' will catapult the plane back into the air. If this happens, keep the 3 point angle of attack and the plane will settle back in. If it pushed you too high, a little shot of power will settle it rather than hitting hard and bouncing. Be ready to 'go around' if the runway is short, or too much of it is behind you.
Click to expand...

Spot on! I experience the same thing on occasion in our residential air park on final approach and just prior to ground effect.
 
Wheel or three point

The best bit of advice I ever got for wheeling on an RV....... Always take it from the right if you've got a choice in a crosswind...........power on if you need it, yaw left........... cross wind from the right......... yaw right. I've always found this allows for maximum control in adverse conditions. Cheers from Western Australia
 
RV-4 Landing

I land my RV-4 exactly the same speeds and same style as Jim Rice does. I have almost 70 hours on her and haven't scared myself yet. I find if your patient with the RV-4 it settles in quite nice.
 
For what it's worth--

~130/hrs in my RV-4. Short gear, 0-320 w/fixed Wood prop. I had about 20/hrs TW about 5 years prior to first getting in a -4, then got an additional 5/hrs dual required by insurance. Except for those first few hours getting accustomed to a taildragger again, I never had issues with the -4. I don't have a lot of time in other types but the -4 almost seems too easy. Gobs of power and effective controls at low speeds.

For the first year and a half, I was pretty much exclusively wheelies--until I put a 225 lb person in the back and found that it took significant elevator to keep the tail up--that ended up being a pretty decent 3-pointer by accident. Since reading this thread back in June, I realized I needed to force myself out of my comfort zone and started working on three pointers.

Initially it was a little awkward because I had become so accustomed to the forward visibility, though it didn't take but a few trips around to get proficient. I like them both. There are definite advantages to landing 3-point and in all honestly, I'd argue is the better of the two.

Ultimately though, I'm with Smokey on this one. Short field? It's a 3-pointer. Otherwise? I prefer the wheelies for no good reason at all.
 
After 2-1/2 years I am finally flying my -4. Tailwheel crash course in a cub, then on to transition training with Alex in his RV-7. He taught me three point landings and I got pretty good. Now in my -4 the biggest problem for me is slowing it down on final. I have more go arounds than landings. My three points stink, so I tried a wheel landing. That seems to work for me right now. I hope I can learn how to get this plane slow enough on final so that I can get good three pointers. I guess practice makes perfect.
 
Speed Target?

Hi Arlie,
What's your target speed crossing the threshold? As I worked on my landings over the last 9 months, I learned that carrying extra speed was a big negative. I normally cross the threshold at 65 knots. I add 5 knots for being heavy or gusty conditions but that's all. Getting slowed on base and keeping the speed under control on final was critical for me. Remember the old axiom, about the difficulty with going down and slowing down at the same time. That's really important in a slick aircraft with no deployable drag devices.

Be careful as you work it down. Below about 60 knots, you can set up some seriously high descent rates that would be difficult to correct without power.

I'm certainly no expert. I'm relating my limited experience as I've gone from zero RV / tailwheel time to about 120 hours and over 200 landings.

I really enjoy landing the -4 now. I'm sure you will too!
Randy
 
65 knots is roughly 75mph. I'm shooting for around 80 across the threshold but I usually wind up around 90-92mph. I only have 5 hrs in the plane and I'm still nervous flying it. It's feels like I'm going to fall out of the sky when I get it slow on final. I'm getting better with each flight, but right now the last 5 seconds before landing is still terrifying. I hope I'm not alone in this aspect of transitioning to the RV after only flying Cessnas and Cherokee's?
 
Landings

Arlie. You are getting some good advice. You are probably too fast for decent 3 pointers. My 4 likes 70mph at threshold for 3's. Anything faster will grease a wheelie.. Just remember ,as others have said, anything under 65mph and sink rate will be high without power. With just a small amount of power you get down lower and shorter. Keep practicing!! Oh. Check your idle rpm I have mine set around 600rpm I found that if idle rpm is around 800 we float farther.
That's me anyway.
 
acam37 said:
65 knots is roughly 75mph. I'm shooting for around 80 across the threshold but I usually wind up around 90-92mph. I only have 5 hrs in the plane and I'm still nervous flying it. It's feels like I'm going to fall out of the sky when I get it slow on final. I'm getting better with each flight, but right now the last 5 seconds before landing is still terrifying. I hope I'm not alone in this aspect of transitioning to the RV after only flying Cessnas and Cherokee's?
Click to expand...

Spend some time at 2000 or 3000' doing level configured slow flight. Negligible control feel difference between there and your RV down at sea level, until you get into ground effect. Climb to 5,000 and get a good full flap stall number. Give yourself 1.2 or so of that speed and do more slow flight. Cross the threshold between the 1.2x and stall speed, obviously closer to 1.2x speed. I find my -4 control feel changes a bit in ground effect but unless you carry way too much speed you transition through it to touchdown fairly quickly and predictably.
Once you get some basic numbers for your plane at different weights it's practice, practice, practice.
Good luck with the transition!
Patrick
 
Roll it on....

acam37 said:
After 2-1/2 years I am finally flying my -4. Tailwheel crash course in a cub, then on to transition training with Alex in his RV-7. He taught me three point landings and I got pretty good. Now in my -4 the biggest problem for me is slowing it down on final. I have more go arounds than landings. My three points stink, so I tried a wheel landing. That seems to work for me right now. I hope I can learn how to get this plane slow enough on final so that I can get good three pointers. I guess practice makes perfect.
Click to expand...

Arlie,
After 25 years and one or two RV4 hours I'm deferring to the F16 Fighter Weapons school answer for anything: it depends! :)
Three point vs Wheel landing is an easy decision. Runway Surface and length determines approach and landing.
Turf, with obstacles and under 2K in length? Three point. 60knot approach with steep, high descent rate power on till touchdown approach. Retract flaps on touchdown, full aft stick with brakes.
Paved, prepared or smooth surface with no obstacles? Wheels landing, 65 knot approach with a tail low, full flap approach to a roll on with power wheels landing and hold tail off for style points till 5knot turnoff speed...:)
Questions?
V/R
Smokey
PS: My home strip for 10 years was. 1500' soft, rough turf strip with trees at both ends. I operated my RV4 and HR2 from it in every imaginable condition except snow. That said, what type approach depends on the surface.)

PSS: johnnybgoode: Thanks for your service. I too was privileged to serve my country and take some payback to AlQaeda in the delivery of 500 and 2000lb high explosive home renovation devices while flying another LM product, the coolest airplane on the planet IMHO, the F16C.
 
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I almost always land my -4 in 3 point..I like to be at 100 mph on downwind, throw flaps in abeam the numbers and bleed it down to 80 in the turn from downwind to final. I usually hold a little power on and and settle in short final 65-70, then ease power off. The -4 will drop like a rock below that, and you need to be ready to check up with a little back stick or shot of power to adjust. Any faster and you will float or need to wheelie. I have long gear, and often brush the TW just before mains with a backseater.
 
smokyray said:
Arlie,
After 25 years and one or two RV4 hours I'm deferring to the F16 Fighter Weapons school answer for anything: it depends! :)
Three point vs Wheel landing is an easy decision. Runway Surface and length determines approach and landing.
Turf, with obstacles and under 2K in length? Three point. 60knot approach with steep, high descent rate power on till touchdown approach. Retract flaps on touchdown, full aft stick with brakes.
Paved, prepared or smooth surface with no obstacles? Wheels landing, 65 knot approach with a tail low, full flap approach to a roll on with power wheels landing and hold tail off for style points till 5knot turnoff speed...:)
Questions?
V/R
Smokey
PS: My home strip for 10 years was. 1500' soft, rough turf strip with trees at both ends. I operated my RV4 and HR2 from it in every imaginable condition except snow. That said, what type approach depends on the surface.)

PSS: johnnybgoode: Thanks for your service. I too was privileged to serve my country and take some payback to AlQaeda in the delivery of 500 and 2000lb high explosive home renovation devices while flying another LM product, the coolest airplane on the planet IMHO, the F16C.
Click to expand...

Minus all the LGPOS talk, listen to Smokey! I've been partial to 3 point landings over the last 3 years that I've flown the -4, but over the last year I finally started doing more wheel landings. Today, thanks to Smokey, I had my best wheel landing yet! Previously, I made the mistake of doing wheel landings at partial or zero flap. Today with full flaps, it rolled right on without the normal bounce I get! Thanks Smokey! Cheers!
 
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