Side support for Front Seat in Aerobatics?

I've recently started practicing the IAC Primary sequence and noticed that during slow rolls my upper body is falling to the 'down' sides, enough that I got some good bruises on my throttle arm from the fuselage frame.
Question: Has anyone got a solution?
How about some side wings on the seat back to keep the pilot centered?

Ratcheting Harnesses

In my case a ratcheting seatbelt from Hooker did the trick. I could never get my normal belt tight enough to keep me stable and had to really tghten my harnesses down which limitd forward stick movement while inverted. Once I switched to an aerobatic harness I felt I was part of the plane again while rolling and inverted.

Any 5 point harness, tension is a trade off between comfort, being able to breath, circulation, and amount of movement. Or put another way, as tight as you can stand it. Also, remind yourself to 'relax' and not to tense up with arms against the side rails while rolling or negative G.
These planes do not have the side support found in other purpose built aerobatic planes, nor the room to the side for movement. So we are forced to strap tighter than we would like to compensate.

My Pitts S-1S has no side support and I don't miss the molded side supports found in the S-2B/C. As mentioned, it's all about having a ratchet belt. I don't need to tighten mine uncomfortably, just a couple clicks more than I'd set for XC type flying.

Which Harness?

RV8iator said:

In my case a ratcheting seatbelt from Hooker did the trick. I could never get my normal belt tight enough to keep me stable and had to really tghten my harnesses down which limitd forward stick movement while inverted. Once I switched to an aerobatic harness I felt I was part of the plane again while rolling and inverted.

Click to expand...

I'm at the point of ordering my interior and I'm getting conflicting advise. After my initial aerobatic trianing I was convinced I needed a "ratcheting" harness in my RV8. When I spoke with the folks doing my interior and the folks at Hooker, they both said I did not...... (Unless I was competing at the higheir levels). I still thought I would need it but, now, not sure..... My question is this: How many folks are using a "ratcheting" system in an RV8 and what setup do most have? i.e.) Doulble Belt or Single with a ratchet rigged in.....( I sell ratchet strap mechanisms all day and I think I could adapt one to the "Hooker Sport" harness with single belt...... I think......

Any advise appreciated... Sorry to piggy back on your thread "shipchief" but, literally have hooker color samples on my coffee table......

sapeloson said:

I'm at the point of ordering my interior and I'm getting conflicting advise. After my initial aerobatic trianing I was convinced I needed a "ratcheting" harness in my RV8. When I spoke with the folks doing my interior and the folks at Hooker, they both said I did not...... (Unless I was competing at the higheir levels). I still thought I would need it but, now, not sure..... My question is this: How many folks are using a "ratcheting" system in an RV8 and what setup do most have? i.e.) Doulble Belt or Single with a ratchet rigged in.....( I sell ratchet strap mechanisms all day and I think I could adapt one to the "Hooker Sport" harness with single belt...... I think......

Any advise appreciated... Sorry to piggy back on your thread "shipchief" but, literally have hooker color samples on my coffee table......

Click to expand...

A ratcheting set belt gets my vote and enthusiastic support! It is the one piece of equipment that has contributed the most to my enjoyment and progression as an aerobatic pilot. It makes you feel that you are a part of the aircraft rather than a bit of cargo and allows you to give much more attention to performing precise figures when you don't worry about contacting the canopy with your head! It also limits the side-to-side movement of your body. I don't have a need for padding in the cockpit when I use the ratcheting belt.

sapeloson said:

I'm at the point of ordering my interior and I'm getting conflicting advise. After my initial aerobatic trianing I was convinced I needed a "ratcheting" harness in my RV8. When I spoke with the folks doing my interior and the folks at Hooker, they both said I did not...... (Unless I was competing at the higheir levels). I still thought I would need it but, now, not sure..... My question is this: How many folks are using a "ratcheting" system in an RV8 and what setup do most have? i.e.) Doulble Belt or Single with a ratchet rigged in.....( I sell ratchet strap mechanisms all day and I think I could adapt one to the "Hooker Sport" harness with single belt...... I think......

Any advise appreciated... Sorry to piggy back on your thread "shipchief" but, literally have hooker color samples on my coffee table......

Click to expand...

The Hooker double belt ratchet set is a great setup. The ratcheting belt holds your body down tight, but comfortable, and the second/top belt attaches to crotch strap/shoulder harness for backup safety. It takes a couple seconds to hook up and is very comfortable.

Normally dosn't need to be ratcheted too tight but it's niceto be able to easily crank in an extra notch in turbulence or when getting ready to do acro.

Not being snarky here, but I'd listen to folks who do a lot of acro over my interior guys on this one. Pony up the few extra bucks and do it right if you want to hang upside down.

Allen Silver also makes a ratcheting seat belt for Experimental airplanes and calls it the Acrobelt. I hear nothing but good things about it and Allen's workmanship and customer service is exceptional. Might be worth checking out at ... www.silverparachutes.com

rmarshall234 said:

Allen Silver also makes a ratcheting seat belt for Experimental airplanes and calls it the Acrobelt. I hear nothing but good things about it and Allen's workmanship and customer service is exceptional. Might be worth checking out at ... www.silverparachutes.com

Click to expand...

I notice that Allen Silver's Acrobelt is a single seat belt with a ratchet. He sells a secondary lap belt should you require one.

FYI I give you the belt requirements from the IAC Official Contest Rules:

"Dual seat belts with separate attach points and a shoulder harness are mandatory for Advanced and Unlimited (power and glider) categories. The same equipment is strongly recommended for Primary, Sportsman, and Intermediate power categories, but is not mandatory except when IAC Technical Monitors deem them necessary for the sequence being flown in these categories."

I cannot imaging any sequence in the lower categories that a tech inspector might require you to have dual lap belts. I fly with two belts, one of them has a ratchet. It would be legal for me to fly my RV-8 in IAC competition with only one belt as I only fly in the Sportsman category. For "fun" aerobatics the single ratcheting lap belt would certainly be adequate and I highly recommend them.

I have the same problem

I have the same problem. I just started my aerobatic instructions last week and my left upper arm has a bruise on it from banging against the side during slow rolls. Also while inverted, my current 4-point harness is not holding me in well enough and my head is hitting against the canopy.

Can anyone point me to any specific 5-point harness that work well with the -4 or are there any that do NOT work well that I need to stay away from? I'm shopping for one now.

The other problem is that I'm spilling a ridiculous amount of oil onto the belly of the plane after an aerobatic session. I must be losing over a quart each time. I have read that the Raven 1/2 system works great. Is the kit completely bolt-on ready? I don't have much experience and probably would not want to do it on my own. I used to work on cars when I was younger so I'm half decent with tools, but planes is a new thing for me. If anyone in Socal is available for me to pick their brains, that would be awesome!

Oh, I should have wrote that I have an RV4. I know this is the -8 section. Sorry.

Brian

1flyingyogi said:

I have the same problem. I just started my aerobatic instructions last week and my left upper arm has a bruise on it from banging against the side during slow rolls. Also while inverted, my current 4-point harness is not holding me in well enough and my head is hitting against the canopy.

Can anyone point me to any specific 5-point harness that work well with the -4 or are there any that do NOT work well that I need to stay away from? I'm shopping for one now.

The other problem is that I'm spilling a ridiculous amount of oil onto the belly of the plane after an aerobatic session. I must be losing over a quart each time. I have read that the Raven 1/2 system works great. Is the kit completely bolt-on ready? I don't have much experience and probably would not want to do it on my own. I used to work on cars when I was younger so I'm half decent with tools, but planes is a new thing for me. If anyone in Socal is available for me to pick their brains, that would be awesome!

Oh, I should have wrote that I have an RV4. I know this is the -8 section. Sorry.

Brian

Click to expand...

I had exactly the same oil issue. Installed 1/2 Raven and it's fixed. As for how complete is the system. You need to find a spot to put it (needs to be high to one side check there web site for details). You need to buy/make the hoses they are not part of the system. You need to find a port on the bottom of your engine (typically oil drain) to connect the return.

So it takes a bit of planning. Depending on how "busy" your engine compartment is it might be easy or not.

As for seat belts. I have an RV-8 so not sure how that translates. I use the Crow belts (none ratcheting). As I totally agree with the experts that a ratcheting seat belt is better I have never hit my arm or my head at slow rolls or negative Gs. I do pull my belt very tight though and I could see that if you have an older belt that slips a bit this could be a problem... .

Oliver

sapeloson said:

When I spoke with the folks doing my interior and the folks at Hooker, they both said I did not...... (Unless I was competing at the higheir levels).

Click to expand...

RV8iator said:

Not being snarky here, but I'd listen to folks who do a lot of acro over my interior guys on this one. Pony up the few extra bucks and do it right if you want to hang upside down.

Click to expand...

Hi Tim,

I just happened to see this thread, and thought "oh no" what did we say now Jeremiah is off for a few days, but I'm assuming you were talking to him about this. He was probably doing his best to pass along what I've generally told customers.

Basically, Jerry is exactly right though. Listen to what others who do aerobatics have to say when deciding. Jeremiah is not a pilot, and I'm not an aerobatic pilot. What I generally tell customers is that most of our customers (RV builders) go with the hooker "Sport" harnesses. That's not to say that they will do what you need them to do though. I try not to tell customers what they need.

One other thing I'll throw out there that's related. If you are going to go with redundant waist belt attach points, and you plan to put in our rear stick boot assembly, we'd be happy to talk with you about it before you fabricate something. It could save you and us some extra hassle, and produce a cleaner install. It just allows us to coordinate what we are doing with what you do. Hope this helps. Sorry if we lead you astray a little.

Best regards,

Not to worry Luke!

Luke D said:

Hi Tim,

I just happened to see this thread, and thought "oh no" what did we say now Jeremiah is off for a few days, but I'm assuming you were talking to him about this. He was probably doing his best to pass along what I've generally told customers.

Basically, Jerry is exactly right though. Listen to what others who do aerobatics have to say when deciding. Jeremiah is not a pilot, and I'm not an aerobatic pilot. What I generally tell customers is that most of our customers (RV builders) go with the hooker "Sport" harnesses. That's not to say that they will do what you need them to do though. I try not to tell customers what they need.

One other thing I'll through out there that's related. If you are going to go with redundant waist belt attach points, and you plan to put in our rear stick boot assembly, we'd be happy to talk with you about it before you fabricate something. It could save you and us some extra hassle, and produce a cleaner install. It just allows us to coordinate what we are doing with what you do. Hope this helps. Sorry if we lead you astray a little.

Best regards,

Click to expand...

The comment's from ya'll weren't so much a recommendation as they were "this is what most folks do"..... You had me contact a guy at Hooker and he used a "very popular show team" as an example of his "sport harness" users...... While I will never do the type of advanced aerobatics the "big dogs" do, I have learned through my limited training the value of a "ratcheting system", which is exactly what others here have confirmed. I have even spoken with Mr. Crow over the last day or so and looked at the "acrobelt" by Silver. I can't say enough about how helpful "everyone" at each company has been. However, the ratchet Mr. Crow uses is turned by and actual ratchet. After exploring the Hooker page they have the same type set up under their "racing" division but, said nothing about it when asked for a single ratcheting belt for "aviation".

I think I'd be happy with the standard ratchet strap style ratchet "rigged" into a "Sport Harness", if we can figure out a way to do that, as opposed to adding another attach point ..... I'll holler shortly to see what we may work out ..... Thanks for all your help so far!

And, a very special thanks for all the advise that has been given by everyone here! This information should help a lot of folks, not just Shipchief and I (especially if we can figure out a safe, simple and easy fix). I love this forum and I couldn't have ever made it this far without you guys!!!!!

Tim

sapeloson said:

The comment's from ya'll weren't so much a recommendation as they were "this is what most folks do"..... You had me contact a guy at Hooker and he used a "very popular show team" as an example of his "sport harness" users...... While I will never do the type of advanced aerobatics the "big dogs" do, I have learned through my limited training the value of a "ratcheting system", which is exactly what others here have confirmed. I have even spoken with Mr. Crow over the last day or so and looked at the "acrobelt" by Silver. I can't say enough about how helpful "everyone" at each company has been. However, the ratchet Mr. Crow uses is turned by and actual ratchet. After exploring the Hooker page they have the same type set up under their "racing" division but, said nothing about it when asked for a single ratcheting belt for "aviation".

I think I'd be happy with the standard ratchet strap style ratchet "rigged" into a "Sport Harness", if we can figure out a way to do that, as opposed to adding another attach point ..... I'll holler shortly to see what we may work out ..... Thanks for all your help so far!

And, a very special thanks for all the advise that has been given by everyone here! This information should help a lot of folks, not just Shipchief and I (especially if we can figure out a safe, simple and easy fix). I love this forum and I couldn't have ever made it this far without you guys!!!!!

Tim

Click to expand...

I suspect that the "very popular show team" is referring to Team AeroDynamix. Hooker sponsored us for several years and supplied sport harnesses to the team. The air show aerobatics that we performed were mostly positive G maneuvers with the exception of an occasional brief negative G during Cuban 8 figures. One team member did a long inverted pass during the show routine and he did use a ratcheting lap belt.

Competition aerobatics and air show aerobatics are two different animals. Even at the Sportsman level you will feel negative Gs in several figures in order to score well in competition. That's when a ratcheting lap belt pays dividends. If you are just doing sport aerobatics for fun then a ratcheting belt may not be necessary. It's up to you!

UPDATE:

sapeloson said:

I think I'd be happy with the standard ratchet strap style ratchet "rigged" into a "Sport Harness", if we can figure out a way to do that, as opposed to adding another attach point ..... I'll holler shortly to see what we may work out ..... Thanks for all your help so far!

And, a very special thanks for all the advise that has been given by everyone here! This information should help a lot of folks, not just Shipchief and I (especially if we can figure out a safe, simple and easy fix). I love this forum and I couldn't have ever made it this far without you guys!!!!!

Tim

Click to expand...

UPDATE:
I spoke with Luke at Classic Aero and we cannot rig a ratchet into the "sport harness". I thought Luke may have sewn these up but, they come from Hooker ready to install. He also made me aware that I'll need to do some minor modification to the "stock" attach points "as built per the plans" in order to use the new "aviator" seats he is building for me. He provides the parts needed. Given this, I have decided to make the mods necessary to use the Hooker Aerobatic double belt system.

Now, I need to see a few pictures that anyone may have of how they attached the double belt system. I searched the forum and there have been some posted in years past but, the photos are gone.... Thanks again for your continued advise and help!

Tim

I just returned from my first competition, at the IAC Beaver State Regional Aerobatic Championships this past weekend.
The Van's 5 point harness held me in, and my head did not contact the canopy, but the bruise on my left arm is pretty big.
I'm looking into ratcheting systems, the advise offered here is helpful.

SHIPCHIEF said:

I just returned from my first competition, at the IAC Beaver State Regional Aerobatic Championships this past weekend.
The Van's 5 point harness held me in, and my head did not contact the canopy, but the bruise on my left arm is pretty big.
I'm looking into ratcheting systems, the advise offered here is helpful.

Click to expand...

A very respectable 71.71% score on your first IAC competition! Hope to see you at many more contests. Well done!

Way to go!

Congrats Shipchief!