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GRT MINI stack or suite

John Meyers

John Meyers

Active Member
I have read other threads re the GRT MINI. Since I am contemplating glass conversion of my IFR RV6a six-pack, I mocked up an over/under configuration using 2 MINI's. Wow. It fits nicely and allows pilot's panel RAM snap-in 10" tablet as well.

I'm thinkin' that upper MINI would be primary PFD, lower for ND/HSI...and they back each other up. TABLET is the chart/ADS-B in etc.

Nothing else can make the fit except vertical G3x 370 and the ASPEN Evolution. 2 MINIs are fairly cost effective give that there are 2 screens and 2 AHRS. Add autopilot and a 3rd MINI to GRTs EIS for right side engine display, still seems cost effective.

Any holes in this plan ? I have seen some pro's and con's already on the threads. Looking for showstopper (like MTBF of say, 200 hours)
PM or email if you prefer.

John Meyers [email protected]
Sequim WA
H Rocket II Built,Sold
RV-6a Bot
 
What is your navigation feed? The GRT Sport SX does not sequence, route, intercept or modify internal flight plans near as well as most external sources. It is also not an IFR navigator. I imagine the mini is similar.
 
The pilot's manual shows a Mini configured to accept traffic and the photo showed a display that was, to me, virtually unreadable - too much in too small an area.

Dave
 
IFR navigator in this plan.... is GARMIN GNS-430W. Stack also has SL-30 for second source VOR ILS... and I would retain the steam/CDI for SL-30.
 
A friend of mine just put two Mini's side by side in his RV-4 and it looks good. Two of them stacked might look a lot like Aspen's EFD1000 at a fraction of the price. http://www.aspenavionics.com/vfr Can you get dual independent AHRS in one of these? I doubt it. :D
 
The real challenge with this plan comes in the form of the limited number of serial ports available on the Mini products. In order to do all the really neat stuff that a 430W or similar navigator allows you to do, the Mini-AP is the better device to have since it will allow the Mini to "talk Arinc 429", thus giving you the full vertical navigation functionality which ultimately will be what you'll want your autopilot (built into the Mini) to do for you.

The other options also make the Mini an excellent choice. For IFR the internal battery is truly a no-brainer, and the sensed Angle of Attack is likewise an upgrade that brings with it extremely high value.

Our Mini-X has the internal battery. Do a search on this site for one of my previous posts about testing the capacity of this battery.
 
David Paule said:
The pilot's manual shows a Mini configured to accept traffic and the photo showed a display that was, to me, virtually unreadable - too much in too small an area.

Dave
Click to expand...

David,

Which image was virtually unreadable?

I ask because I may have supplied the image and if so, I may have been zoomed out to far and/or had not done any decluttering.

There is **LOTS** of flexibility in configuring what gets displayed. You can have as little or as much (too much??) as you choose.

If you wish, let me know and I can supply with an image that is decluttered showing whatever combination you wish of map, terrain, weather, traffic, etc.

The engine page does pack a lot in that small (compared to the big screens) space but I tend to use it more for exceptions.

Hope this different perspective helps.

James
p.s. My connection to the MINI is that I pushed hard for certain features and I have purchased multiple units.
 
Thanks for all replies... about my speculation on MINI-AP dual installation. Guess the jury is still out... I am pondering more pros and cons. Got a PM and email about the subject also.

John Meyers
 
My Mini-AP install is still new and I'm really enjoying flying behind it. I find myself considering adding a Mini-X to function as a MFD / HSI / Moving Map.

I have a six-pack with the Mini-AP in place of the vacuum AI, and the Mini-X would replace the CDI (which replaced the the vacuum DG).
 
Hi John, happy to answer any questions I can.

I cross posted in this thread about using the Mini as a PFD:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134117

Sorry about the marginal photo. I was evaluating different dimming levels with respect to the instrument lights I added and the two flood eyeballs that were already in place. For now, I quite like having the CDI below the PFD.

The most difficult part of the installation for me was cutting the square mounting hole. I had to remove / cover everything on the left side of the panel to avoid getting metal bits into an open EXP Bus below it. Vertically, I'm tight on space. I'll need to move the Mini-AP up slightly and perhaps move the switch panel down. Either way, I'll have to take the left side of the panel apart, possibly fabricate a plate for the six pack to deal with two square mounting holes and hopefully will not need to create a new, lower profile array of switches. Obviously, all problems are unique to my installation.

Next step - wire up magnetometer, ARINC (GNS-430) and TruTrak Vizion interface.

Pfwpqt9RFW2tOkGzhXcwBDefpw82WV25lWcu4jKobhJtC7V6PhvclnbeojxrPktcnOtmwD5zgoAKPqZeURSX9_L-PZzg4oXmjaReCdDix0sbgyVufTeeCM1Ef-7CMICfUxx-n4GblQW7qcCokFTGkQgqD1efNkXlQLprHYym_BxvbhgUMpYNJRmPLFWpoUye8W0wUPHiFn693R24RlrLBFKKhCMeNLyLRlv-q3VRNLn3xoKlWL3-TXDt1mzLsfr-IWGI6njMb1FF0zTBfZqFB9vCTjK-VeqIGfjIH5w91oh3jtdIucmJ8xCKcdMzg6ay35EplbSrValw23jwxhG-II8rdFbYrhfiE-N_ShbdngXILfkjOqridppn9Kdqm1oJiwCMRN3CXsdpBrp9lASN21aguLUsPoN88FsVB1w7mHWMnYKhjvmoQLTHdXxXpkFL-QOzmcEQ71rTYj2m3TI-oCWpRqd0WS5sS4VoJTi0fVlUcMKAo9evVSq_W9lXgT-9ZHR_YUYo5dP7C-yTSAGLujjILeo5H3cCQgPI2D5YjyqfklExiMNMrupccmin1h5zD062=w1074-h805-no


xwpFZ65p2Lav3DGSi0Mv3yF3y6UyiQlKhxEuq2Io1QGeUH_p4sUW3-mxJHWFRon6lJQIY1NU0pwaljEReInMzQSHwFsRxqgMv09Eq_8xmkXQ3ipsys2xLDnYzfU3g60Yn7BKvpOrBEtz2w3Xm8b5ZXuDYe-Z94W5h3qhhllN2N5ydsjdSR4TCHOZZ878fU4yzSH8LFBgW-neDPAiM0YuMKqlw5b8XGs6t7LJALF7qWgbes_EGFEq_L5oajCoCWkbKdITA8qOz11z8bGn7YXmfT506t1Y6TayPl7LZhqaohVlo3I2NNGfPKIZLrnaJd3pNyBVWY11TguyE9zcgNAMuFr1_HmJgqpQo6DlX0d1FHo3nWcuQPDOXPlZBJk9Zd4cqjwjemkyQ3Qc3lyjsVxBdVslQUcjLlziLXSFvGITdyPd2JdWKgXAByR5qYQkRWAKyEHXgAwUPrGlPiLiqhGGYXwwsIbGZwwa_-Pd75_jNvwUS1Zi8RBNUw2wnMuig6mJ0eqjw0C0tMg7d2uDQHqWgFSYNS8bV4sSrYAnj5w_wnMPndUHfnyQlw0_B7hY-D7Y4HPm=w1100-h1522-no


I proposed a Mini-MFD product to GRT with no pitot/static, no GPS, no backup magnetometer and no AHRS to reduce cost. I do not expect them to move forward on this as simply buying a Mini-X with mapping and backup battery (should you wish) provides the functionality I'm looking for. One would also get the added redundancy of an additional PFD (with pitot / static and AI) which is significant.

Now to figure out how to make space for it...

Jeff
 
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Thanks for that pic. I'm on a similar track but would double up using MINI APs, and discard all other elements of old six pack. Still not sure how the MINIs might dance together. Doubt that the manufacturer thought we would want to multiply these devices into our panels as direct replacements for old air-driven gyros... or upgrade short of Cinerama big screens.

John Meyers
 
Something else to consider is a single sceen G3X system, without the engine monitor this system can be had for around $3995.
I use the mini in lots of panels as a back up but if you're looking to replace an entire 6 pack, and have plenty of options for expanding later, I think you'd be hard pressed to beat the Garmin.
http://www.garmin.com/us/products/intheair/sport-aviation/g3x/

overview.jpg
 
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Walt said:
Something else to consider is a single sceen G3X system, without the engine monitor this system can be had for around $3995.
I use the mini in lots of panels as a back up but if you're looking to replace an entire 6 pack, and have plenty of options for expanding later, I think you'd be hard pressed to beat the Garmin.
http://www.garmin.com/us/products/intheair/sport-aviation/g3x/

overview.jpg
Click to expand...

What's the cost to upgrade the Garmin to dual AHARS, add dual independent GPS receivers and a backup battery? That's what you could get in a pair of Mini-X's for about that $4K price point, if my math is right. Without doubt, the ability to upgrade/expand the Garmin solution is excellent. Just add dollars and stir!
 
John Meyers said:
Thanks for that pic. I'm on a similar track but would double up using MINI APs, and discard all other elements of old six pack. Still not sure how the MINIs might dance together. Doubt that the manufacturer thought we would want to multiply these devices into our panels as direct replacements for old air-driven gyros... or upgrade short of Cinerama big screens.

John Meyers
Click to expand...

They seem to do just fine together.

You get to select what info is shared between the "n" units that you can link together.

One can mix and match different versions of the MINI to save $$$. For example, you could have a mix of the Basic, X and AP depending on your needs. And for about $150 you can add the Engine page to the Basic unit <<the engine hardware module and sensors range from about $1000 to about $1500>>. For $200 you can add Engine plus ADS-B weather and Traffic to the "X" or "AP".


Lot's of options of you choose to go this route.

Feel free to reach me of you have questions as I have worked with several on different planes of friends of mine.

James
 
James - your comment about selecting what info is shared between units prompts me to ask a question, or series of questions, if I may?

The GRT documentation is pretty skinny in terms of defining what data is passed across the inter-display link, and that's the source of my questions.

In this particular scenario, there is a GNS480 and an SL30 tied to an HX display (with Arinc 429), per GRT's recommended wiring configuration. The HX is tied to a Mini-X via RS232 inter-display link.

What data gets passed between the Mini-X and HX and vice versa? Of particular interest is the concept of configuring the HX to run split screen PFD and MAP and have the Mini-X operate essentially as an HSI. If this configuration is possible, will the VOR OBS for either the VOR receiver in the GNS480 or the SL30 be settable from the Mini-X, depending on which NAV is selected on the HX?

So far my Mini-X has only flown in a temporary installation so I haven't been able to verify this level of interoperation in the full panel with all the latest software versions loaded. Any light you can shed on the chatter that goes on between Mini-X and HX (and Mini-to-Mini) would be greatly appreciated.
 
Canadian_JOY said:
James - your comment about selecting what info is shared between units prompts me to ask a question, or series of questions, if I may?

The GRT documentation is pretty skinny in terms of defining what data is passed across the inter-display link, and that's the source of my questions.

In this particular scenario, there is a GNS480 and an SL30 tied to an HX display (with Arinc 429), per GRT's recommended wiring configuration. The HX is tied to a Mini-X via RS232 inter-display link.

What data gets passed between the Mini-X and HX and vice versa? Of particular interest is the concept of configuring the HX to run split screen PFD and MAP and have the Mini-X operate essentially as an HSI. If this configuration is possible, will the VOR OBS for either the VOR receiver in the GNS480 or the SL30 be settable from the Mini-X, depending on which NAV is selected on the HX?

So far my Mini-X has only flown in a temporary installation so I haven't been able to verify this level of interoperation in the full panel with all the latest software versions loaded. Any light you can shed on the chatter that goes on between Mini-X and HX (and Mini-to-Mini) would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

I just finished helping a friend with a setup VERY similar to what you reference.

If you can contact me around midday, I can try the various options you question.

See image below. It has HXr, GNS480, SL-30, MINI-AP, MINI-AP.
Send email or message.

James


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a...D5FNryNy58WhkjNoNJTmomuHh_HsJw=w1936-h1089-no
 
Canadian_JOY said:
What's the cost to upgrade the Garmin to dual AHARS, add dual independent GPS receivers and a backup battery? That's what you could get in a pair of Mini-X's for about that $4K price point, if my math is right. Without doubt, the ability to upgrade/expand the Garmin solution is excellent. Just add dollars and stir!
Click to expand...

Yes but math aside, I thought the OP was talking about IFR ops here.
The mini install manual states:

"We designed the Mini with two main goals in mind: A small, lightweight, economical VFR EFIS system for LSA and light kitplanes, and an affordable, high-quality backup to larger EFIS systems for IFR operations."

So you guys are talking about using this as your primary instrument in IFR ops which appears to be contrary to the manufacturers recommendation.
 
Walt said:
So you guys are talking about using this as your primary instrument in IFR ops which appears to be contrary to the manufacturers recommendation.
Click to expand...

The Mini description page on their website and the manual mention using it for IFR in several locations.

Just one example from the web page:
"A Primary and A Backup
The Mini is not a compromised instrument. It is a complete EFIS capable of synthetic vision, with a GPS navigator, and incorporating the same technology that made GRT famous for its high-integrity AHRS. It is completely suitable as the primary instrument in your panel or as a backup.

As A Primary Flight Display
The Mini includes an electronic attitude source (AHRS) that is not dependent on GPS and/or air data. IFR certifiable altitude, vertical speed, and airspeed are boldly shown with tapes and smoothly rotating drum-style digital displays that instinctively convey value and trend."

http://grtavionics.com/mini.html

It is possible that as the product has matured they simply haven't updated that sentence in the manual that you quote. They have certainly added more things to the Mini useful for IFR since it first came out.

-Dj
 
jclark said:
If you can contact me around midday, I can try the various options you question.

See image below. It has HXr, GNS480, SL-30, MINI-AP, MINI-AP.
Send email or message.
James
Click to expand...

Hi James,
I am also very interested in this. I was unable to get your image to load. I have a GNS480 coupled to an HX, with a serial link from the HX to a Mini-X (DU data link). I'd love to be able to keep the Mini in HSI mode to select OBS and display feedback from the NAV side of the GNS480.

-Dj
 
Walt said:
Yes but math aside, I thought the OP was talking about IFR ops here.
The mini install manual states:

"We designed the Mini with two main goals in mind: A small, lightweight, economical VFR EFIS system for LSA and light kitplanes, and an affordable, high-quality backup to larger EFIS systems for IFR operations."

So you guys are talking about using this as your primary instrument in IFR ops which appears to be contrary to the manufacturers recommendation.
Click to expand...

Walt, what you quoted here is what the Mini was originally intended for. When I was working for GRT and helping develop the product, we thought it would be too small to be attractive as a PFD for pilots flying anything bigger than a Sonex or RV-3, and that if a person could fit a bigger screen in their panel, they would opt for a Sport or HX. But Deej is right-- people on a budget or those who don't wish to tear apart their entire existing panel are attracted to the capabilities of the Mini and have expanded its role to include using it as a PFD. The programming and hardware are the same quality as the bigger EFIS units in the GRT lineup, all of which are used by IFR pilots as primary displays.
 
I might swap the CDI and D2 locations. The odds of 2 minis both out are next to nil. I might have the minis each with their own pitot tube however. Or else an alternate pitot source from inside the engine cowl /plenum for back up.
 
Good points... panel far left under D-2 location will be CB panel. Right now existing config provides access to fuse panel underneath, won't accommodate real instrument due to depth constraint.
 
Never heard of this before

F1R said:
I might swap the CDI and D2 locations. The odds of 2 minis both out are next to nil. I might have the minis each with their own pitot tube however. Or else an alternate pitot source from inside the engine cowl /plenum for back up.
Click to expand...

How would it work? I'm thinking the prop wash would make upper cowl air pressure too high and cooling fin drag would make lower cowl air pressure too low to substitute for pitot. Close enough for AHARS-work, perhaps?
 
The upper cowl just in front of the back baffle should be close. You would need to do an experiment in flight to verify and make note of the difference compared to actual pitot air speed. The air in this location should be well above freezing. It would be better than no pitot data from an iced over pitot.

In general icing in any RV is a piece of cake. Just stay well out of any ice.

However we see more and more people building IFR ships. A lot of the current AHRS for glass attitude displays use pitot pressure for some of the attitude solution.
 
KatieB said:
Walt, what you quoted here is what the Mini was originally intended for. When I was working for GRT and helping develop the product, we thought it would be too small to be attractive as a PFD for pilots flying anything bigger than a Sonex or RV-3, and that if a person could fit a bigger screen in their panel, they would opt for a Sport or HX. But Deej is right-- people on a budget or those who don't wish to tear apart their entire existing panel are attracted to the capabilities of the Mini and have expanded its role to include using it as a PFD. The programming and hardware are the same quality as the bigger EFIS units in the GRT lineup, all of which are used by IFR pilots as primary displays.
Click to expand...

Katie is so correct.

I know that I aggravated them quite a bit to get more and more features into the Sport (I have three in my RV6) and the MINI basically is a "mini Sport" with better hardware!!!

Until you have had time to play with/fly with a MINI it is hard to appreciate what is in that little package.

There was an earlier reference to it being too cluttered and I still ask for the specific image the PFD is quite readable to me and I think the screen size for MAP is the same (??) as the Garmin x96's. The font for the engine page, I must say is QUITE SMALL but that is required to get all the engine stuff on the page. (Engine page is an additional $$ option).

The units can do AoA (hardware), ADS-B traffic and weather (serial or USB), ARINC and full autopilot controls. A **LOT** i a small package.

My biggest complaint to GRT though is about them doing a lousy job of getting the message out about what they have created here.

James
 
deej said:
Hi James,
I am also very interested in this. I was unable to get your image to load. I have a GNS480 coupled to an HX, with a serial link from the HX to a Mini-X (DU data link). I'd love to be able to keep the Mini in HSI mode to select OBS and display feedback from the NAV side of the GNS480.

-Dj
Click to expand...

Send me an email and I will email you images of installations in RV8 as well as Lancair.

I also have had a couple of overlay plates cut that I use.

jclarkmail

over there on the gmail system. :)
 
I Level

Is anybody running the I-Level in combination with the GRT Mini EFIS AP and getting engine monitoring info on their I-Pad? I have thought about doing that but haven't wanted to pony up the money for the ILevel since I already have GP on my mini Ipad and GDL39D. Interested if anyone is, and how easy it is to read.

I run GP on Mini I-pad in combination with GRT Mini Efis and the mini efis is much easier to read in flight than the I-pad.
 
Real world Usage

Here a 4 photo's of a MiniX stack in my plane with real displays. You can see how crowded, or not, you think they are.

This one is with the normal MAP page displayed on the lower Mini. I have traffic displayed on the map page on the lower, HITS and SV on the upper with autopilot modes displayed on the scoreboards.

25209388643_efb9fbca4d_c.jpg


This one shows the MAP display on the bottom one in North Up for comparison.

25205448984_e78f03e6dd_c.jpg


This one show the MAP page displaying the HSI page for the old round dial feel.

25535293520_08a09a8217_c.jpg


And the last one shows the lower diplaying the ENG page. Fully customizable indications that you can set up.
P.S. on this photo. I had a #3 EGT go out. Engine was running just fine... in case you were wondering..

25535280880_52fc9168b8_c.jpg


If you link them together you control setting on both by turning or selecting on either one. I.e. Set Altimeter, brightness, Altitude, etc. I don't find them too crowded and very easy to interpret. j Brightness under bubble canopy is outstanding. Easily readable in all conditions.

Hope this helps you decide which route you want to go.
 
Weight of GRT Mini?

Does anyone know? Couldn't find listed on GRT website. Also what is the added weight of the optional battery?
 
GRT Mini AP

I installed a Mini AP in my RV6A about 2 years and 175 hours ago after my vacuum pump called it quits. I am amazed every time I fly at the amount of information and capability that is contained in that small package, especially considering all the holes left in my panel after removing the un-needed 6-pack and other avionics. I have the GPS/map option, synthetic vision, digital magnetometer, and GRT auto pilot servos. The Mini also remotely controls my TT22 transponder and supplies altitude encoding. Did I mention g-meter, winds aloft vectors, True airspeed, Highway in the Sky, Flight Director, Synthetic Approach, among other features? I use an iPad mini with Foreflight for tracking my flight but use the internal Mini GPS for navigation. I don't have anything to compare it to, but I sure can't wait to get my other 2 10.4" HXr's installed to complete my panel.
 
Just to add some additional info... On a previous page in this thread there was some discussion about adding another pitot source for a second Mini. That comment was based on the true fact that some EFIS products use pitot information in the calculation of their attitude solution.

GRT has long touted the fact that their attitude solution is independent of pitot pressure. In the case of the Mini, loss of pitot information will not cause the unit to produce erroneous attitude indication. The built-in GPS can be used to fly using groundspeed, if so desired, thus providing a reversionary mode of operation.

Our panel features a 6" HX and a Mini-X. While that aircraft is not yet flying, I can say I have flown with the Mini-X in our other aircraft, with only the GPS providing ground speed and ground track while cabin pressure provided altitude. It worked just fine.

In the HX/Mini-X configuration, my plan is to use the Mini-X in PFD mode virtually all the time and use the HX for more complex functions that require button pushing etc. The idea is that I will touch the Mini only when absolutely necessary, and use the HX, with its bigger screen, for flight planning, mapping and split-screen data presentations.

From what I've seen of the Mini so far, I would certainly not hesitate to stack a couple of them up to make an Aspen look-alike display (for a LOT less money!). Similarly, if I had a vacuum-driven steam gauge panel I would turf it like a hot potato and install a Mini or two, as money permitted.
 
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