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MGL Avionics: New ECB

R

Rainier Lamers

Well Known Member
We are shipping our new ECB module.
ecb.jpg


Briefly, here are the features:

8 breakers programmable up to 10A each.
Bullet proof semiconductor technology switches intended for demanding environments.
Maintains safe operation in case of complete internal electronics failure.
Can be used stand-alone (no EFIS) or connected to EFIS up to 64 breakers (8 modules). EFIS can show individual breaker states, currents etc and depending on desired operating mode, can also set breaker parameters and control breakers.
Soft start and sequential start avoids high inrush currents leading to higher reliability.
In stand-alone mode can be setup quickly without need of a lap top or other computer.
Single or dual color LED breaker state indications (selectable).
Breaker doubling and tripling can be used to create 20A and 30A breakers.
Wigwag functionality for landing lights.
Burst flash functionality to drive ordinary high brightness 12V LED lamps as strobes.
Cost effective alternative to traditional circuit breakers, no need for high current wiring to the panel, ability to decentralise power switching requirements.
Only low current/low voltage latching switches needed (types with built in LEDs are recommended).
Precise control over breaker trip currents regardless of temperature. No breaker fatigue or limited life time.
Rugged, lightweight, flanged aluminium housing for simple mounting.

And more...

Details at www.mglavionics.co.za/ecb.html

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
I can't find a price on either US or ZA website. What does it cost in $?

Will it work with an Xtreme? If so, have you thought about making an ECB-only version of the Xtreme firmware for legacy retrofits. Basically, I'm looking for something to replace the old VP-50 (Vertical Power) but would like a small dedicated screen instead of having to buy a full efis just to add smart power.
 
Last edited:
Between this, the AFS module, and the VP products, lots of interesting options!

Any word on EFIS compatibility beyond the MGL ones?
 
8 fingers up on this. It's pretty close to what I would have designed if I went this way.

However, I personally do not like the ribbon cable interconnect. Looking around my hangar, I see no tools for fabricating ribbon cables and they are a pig to route through round holes.

My preference would be to use DSUBs at the box end and crimped fast-ons at the switch end. In fact, I built pcbs for my aircraft that adapted low current switches to fast-on terminals for this type of application. I used the split terminals so that 0.110 or 0.25 inch fast-on terminals would fit.

In this fashion, conventional wiring harnesses using tefzel wire could be fabricated and routed easily.

So if you eliminated the ribbon cables, this would be more shop-friendly.

I see no provision for motor (flaps, gear, trim) control which would require low-side switches. Perhaps a product variant later?
 
vlittle said:
8 fingers up on this. It's pretty close to what I would have designed if I went this way.

However, I personally do not like the ribbon cable interconnect. Looking around my hangar, I see no tools for fabricating ribbon cables and they are a pig to route through round holes.
Click to expand...
Really? You can cut ribbon cable with scissors, and crimp the connector with a vise. It's pretty darned easy. However, they also are prone to making poor connections if subjected to movement or vibration, which makes them a poor choice for an aviation connector... IMHO.

I love the basic idea though... I'm already wondering if it might form the basis of a panel-redesign, if I can use a better connector...

As for routing though, take a look at what people making PC's do with ribbon cables. Rolling them into a round cable and running it through a cable sheath works rather well.
 
We decided on the ribbon cable after having tested a unit for 5 years in an aircraft with high vibration with zero issues (yes, 5 years).
You need nothing more than a bench vice (see manual on the ECB with pictures). Quick, simple and in fact very reliable. There are few electronic systems out there that do not have some or other variant of this connector type internal. I think it is fairly safe to say that good quality connectors and cable from reputable sources are in fact excellent. We are not talking about the materials and tolerances used in the 1980's when these first became available - and in those days where indeed somewhat iffy.
Also, we are using the connector type that comes with the strain relief clip. That serves two purposes: No movement whatsoever makes it to the actual crimp connection and, using the clips (or "ears") you can see in the picture the connector is firmly held in place - but yet easy to remove if you ever need to.

The main advantage is assembly speed when compared to a DB25 (which would be the required size) - and if you where to choose a flat cable crimp type it would be exactly the same type of connection...
In the end we also had to choose something that was compact but not fiddly. The ECB had to be as small as possible.
As one poster mentioned, the idea is to split the ribbon cable into groups of 4 conductors (very easy to do - just pull). That goes into any hole. We use 4 conductors per breaker (unless you join breakers). One is ground, one for the switch and either one or two to drive status and fault LEDs depending on how you would like this to operate.

Matching connectors are also available in a non-crimp type if you need to use teflon wire so this is not really an issue - you have a lot of choice.

No, we do not have plans to add flap, trim etc. This is not intended to be a VPX competitor but a simple electronic version of a circuit breaker. I only allowed some indulgence by adding wigwag and a strobe flasher.
Our EFIS systems have all of the flap and trim functionality as part of the EFIS infrastructure so we do not need duplication here.

No, there is no compatibility to any other product. The concept is too different to try and squeeze this into an existing protocol. In any case, we use the CAN bus to connect to an EFIS. It does support a full function RS232 port as well and the protocol is available to anyone that cares. This is not used with our systems but available for third party use.

Also remember that this is also intended to be a stand-alone system so it in fact does not need an EFIS at all. Connecting it to an EFIS is just a nice bonus.

As in the past, I have no idea on pricing in countries other than my own and have zero influence. This is up to local distributors.
I can only list the end user price in Southern Africa as that is my domain.

Including 14% sales taxes it is R3418.00 and a matching switch kit is R846 (Dual color leds, chromed bezel, PCB, panel switch, 4 way connectors x 10).
Using the todays exchange rate that is $274 and $68.
Please note that typical prices in other countries are higher and in some cases much higher depending on costs. Please contact your local distributor for pricing in your country.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics

Snowflake said:
Really? You can cut ribbon cable with scissors, and crimp the connector with a vise. It's pretty darned easy. However, they also are prone to making poor connections if subjected to movement or vibration, which makes them a poor choice for an aviation connector... IMHO.

I love the basic idea though... I'm already wondering if it might form the basis of a panel-redesign, if I can use a better connector...

As for routing though, take a look at what people making PC's do with ribbon cables. Rolling them into a round cable and running it through a cable sheath works rather well.
Click to expand...
 
Just a small note:

On the ECB image you can see little dots next to the output terminals as well as next to the power input terminal.
These are LEDs connected straight to the relevant lines (via suitable resistors of course). Not a biggie but nevertheless extremely useful as you can see with one glance which connection has power.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
AllThumbs said:
I can't find a price on either US or ZA website. What does it cost in $?

Will it work with an Xtreme? If so, have you thought about making an ECB-only version of the Xtreme firmware for legacy retrofits. Basically, I'm looking for something to replace the old VP-50 (Vertical Power) but would like a small dedicated screen instead of having to buy a full efis just to add smart power.
Click to expand...

The XTreme is not my product but made by Infinitec (we just happen to distribute it).
I shall discuss a version of the XTreme as ECB controller with them.
This could easily be coupled with an SP-10 for those that would need flap and trim control in addition.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
rvator51 said:
Hi Rainier,
What are the dimensions on the ECB?
Click to expand...

Body is 120x100x32 mm
Including mounting flanges 150x100x32 mm.
Including total height of connectors (excluding DB9 but including clips on IDC connectors) 150x100x56 mm.

It is the same housing we also use for the AvioGuard and RDAC XF.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
I really like the concept.

Question: Is ribbon cable available with tefzel insulation that is suitable for IDC termination?

I'm with Vern on a preference for D-sub connections in place of the ribbon IDC type. Most IDC cable (ribbon included) need to have a fairly soft insulation material mostly PVC so as to prevent compromising the grip onto the wire during the assembly process. The insulation needs split to allow the blunt contacts to grab the wire. Tefzel insulation has really good resistance to splitting and nicking so difficult to use For IDC termination.

I prefer D-subs because the types we use have mill spec gold plated contacts, crimp termination, have floating contacts so the individual pin/socket alignment is 100%, have positive connector retention (screws) and can be fitted with cable relief backshell to remove strain from the connection.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Doug said:
I really like the concept.

Question: Is ribbon cable available with tefzel insulation that is suitable for IDC termination?

I'm with Vern on a preference for D-sub connections in place of the ribbon IDC type. Most IDC cable (ribbon included) need to have a fairly soft insulation material mostly PVC so as to prevent compromising the grip onto the wire during the assembly process. The insulation needs split to allow the blunt contacts to grab the wire. Tefzel insulation has really good resistance to splitting and nicking so difficult to use For IDC termination.

I prefer D-subs because the types we use have mill spec gold plated contacts, crimp termination, have floating contacts so the individual pin/socket alignment is 100%, have positive connector retention (screws) and can be fitted with cable relief backshell to remove strain from the connection.

Just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...

You would use a very similar method to the DSUB. IDC connectors are available with individual crimp contacts for discrete wires so in the end there is effectively no difference.
One of the features of the IDC system is the very wide range of options so that is a bonus.
One could even consider a small PCB containing a normal ICD board mount connector and then use the PCB to translate that into anything you like.
We'll see what and where the demand is going to be and react accordingly.

BTW: This device is tested to DO-160 vibration limits which includes the ICD connectors. DO-160 test categories are at the end of the manual. The tests are performed with the cable secured as you would do in an aircraft.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
Last edited:
Hornet2008 said:
Hi Rainier,

Had a look through the manual, albeit quickly, it there a way to reset in flight?
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean with "reset" but there are two options so let me answer both:

Reset a tripped breaker.

a) switch off and then on. This resets the breaker if it tripped.
b) if connected to an EFIS reset the breaker by touching its representation on the display.

Reset the module.

No "reset" button as such but there is an electronic version of it. Should the microprocessor stop executing its program for whatever reason a built in "watchdog" will restart the system (this is very fast).
If that does not get the processor working then there is another, very simple system that detects this and effectively disconnects the processor from control of the breakers. You still control the breakers just as before through the switches. In this case all breakers default to their built in trip current limits of 45A each (yes these things can take quite a wallop).
In case supply power to the module fails, it will draw power from the high current input power terminal instead and continue working as normal.
Difficult to imagine a more fail safe design...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
will this ECB interface with any of your competitors EFIS systems to view status of the circuits and reset through the EFIS?
 
jump4way said:
will this ECB interface with any of your competitors EFIS systems to view status of the circuits and reset through the EFIS?
Click to expand...

Nope.
All protocols are available but I suspect it will be unlikely that anybody would implement it.
Been proven wrong before - let's see.

Rainier
 
Rainier Lamers said:
In this case all breakers default to their built in trip current limits of 45A each (yes these things can take quite a wallop).
Click to expand...

Does the system somehow annunciate that all wiring to systems/avionics/whatever is now essentially unprotected? 45A could cause quite a nice smoke event if the ECB system failed, a pilot continues flying, and some hours later an unrelated failure occured in an avionics box or a powered wire rattled loose and shorted to ground.
 
Rainier, I'll be happy to implement a stand-alone open-source front end. I've sent a note to Matt already with a proposal.

Neil
 
Mike S said:
The switch and light on a PCB you show has me puzzled-----------as I see it, the light must be inserted into the panel from the front--------cant do that with the light soldered to the PCB.

Page 6 here. http://www.mglavionics.co.za/Docs/MGL ECB.pdf
Click to expand...

Easy.
You have two holes in the panel for this case.
You mount the bezel.
Then you insert the switch part and fasten that - the LED simply slots into the bezel (in other words the LED is not fixed to the bezel - it just holds it so it looks nice). The whole assembly is held by the switch.

This is only one of many ways to do this. You can be quite creative here. There are countless nice switch options with or without built in LEDs available.

You can even decide that you don't want any switches or LED indicators at all and want to control only from another device.

It's a building block - you decide how you want to use it.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
AllThumbs said:
Rainier, I'll be happy to implement a stand-alone open-source front end. I've sent a note to Matt already with a proposal.

Neil
Click to expand...

Noted, thank you.
I'm still busy writing the protocol doc for the RS232 but that should be done by this afternoon (I assume that this is what you want to use).
The CAN protocol for the ECB is already in our CAN protocol document on the Web.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
krw5927 said:
Does the system somehow annunciate that all wiring to systems/avionics/whatever is now essentially unprotected? 45A could cause quite a nice smoke event if the ECB system failed, a pilot continues flying, and some hours later an unrelated failure occured in an avionics box or a powered wire rattled loose and shorted to ground.
Click to expand...

No, there is no annunciation as such in stand-alone mode - unless it is connected to an EFIS in which case that can alert you.

However, this state can be detected by the pilot on startup of the system.

Remember this is the "last ditch" defensive failure mode when all chips are down. The real bonus is that you can still operate the ECB and switch your breakers so you do not loose that essential function.
The alternative would be loss of ECB function and your breakers - which of the two would you choose ?

The 45A needs clarification (things are not quite that straight forward). 45A is the ultimate trip current applied without delay. At 40A it takes one second and it trips. 3 seconds at 30A. 10 seconds at 20A. At 15A and below it will hold.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
Rainier Lamers said:
No, there is no annunciation as such in stand-alone mode - unless it is connected to an EFIS in which case that can alert you.
Click to expand...

Is there a line out somewhere that could be connected to an idiot light or two that could show green if all is OK and red if it's gone into 45A mode? Or would you have to decode a data stream to get that information?
 
Oh, and another question that applies to MGL products in general: Can you make available some 3-D models that people could use for panel building/planning? Basic shells that one could place into a solid model and check clearances, etc? IGES or STEP format would probably support most of the 3D modelling packages out there.
 
Snowflake said:
Is there a line out somewhere that could be connected to an idiot light or two that could show green if all is OK and red if it's gone into 45A mode? Or would you have to decode a data stream to get that information?
Click to expand...

This is the ultimate failure mode. There is no data stream. Nothing is working. You are left with just the actual semiconductor switches (the actual breakers) and your panel switch.
It is the direct equivalent of a normal mechanical breaker that you are left with.

No current ECB provides this (as far as I can tell).

There is in fact a digital signal that you could access that would indicate this state but it would require soldering in a wire. This signal can drive a LED. There is a spare pin on the DB9 you could use for that...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
Snowflake said:
Oh, and another question that applies to MGL products in general: Can you make available some 3-D models that people could use for panel building/planning? Basic shells that one could place into a solid model and check clearances, etc? IGES or STEP format would probably support most of the 3D modelling packages out there.
Click to expand...

That is a good idea and I have had a few requests like that (increasing frequency lately). Probably time to fire up my CAD package...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
Rainier Lamers said:
The alternative would be loss of ECB function and your breakers - which of the two would you choose ?
Click to expand...

That's a tough choice for me, actually. Would I rather have a potentially dangerous situation that is not indicated to the pilot so that a precautionary landing could be made, or would I rather lose all electrons and know for certain that I need to land? Given smart system design, keeping the big fan up front turning wouldn't depend solely on any single piece of electrical equipment. So I might actually be inclined to choose the zero electrons option. If IFR, that choice might be different. Simply annunciating this failure mode would address the issue. It sounds like you're saying failure can be annunciated by driving an LED, with a little extra work, through the 9-pin Dsub. This is good, and in my opinion should be the standard configuration as shipped.

I don't intend to sound negative about the product. Clearly there's a lot of interest here. A way to know when something has failed is important, and users need to fully understand the operational and failure mode characteristics in the systems they design, no matter which circuit protection devices they choose.
 
Rainier Lamers said:
This is the ultimate failure mode. There is no data stream. Nothing is working.
Click to expand...
Sorry, brain not fully engaged before the first cup of coffee in the morning. Of course if the system has failed there wouldn't be a data stream. If you were connected to an external EFIS I suppose you might get a "connection to ECB lost" warning popup message...

There is in fact a digital signal that you could access that would indicate this state but it would require soldering in a wire. This signal can drive a LED. There is a spare pin on the DB9 you could use for that...
Click to expand...
If there's a spare pin anyway, would there be any downside to including that as a default configuration? I guess it depends whether you had any other plans for expansion on that connector...

That is a good idea and I have had a few requests like that (increasing frequency lately). Probably time to fire up my CAD package...
Click to expand...
I assumed design would have been done in CAD to start with, but if not, I have created a simplified model of your standard 3" and 2" round instrument bodies... PM me if you'd like me to email them to you.
 
Snowflake said:
I assumed design would have been done in CAD to start with, but if not, I have created a simplified model of your standard 3" and 2" round instrument bodies... PM me if you'd like me to email them to you.
Click to expand...

Yes, the mold is done in CAD of course but not an image of the total product.

Bring 'em on, got to start somewhere...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
Rainier, is there any update on availability yet? I don't see anything on the MGL site about it (like an ordering link) apart from the page you have linked to previously, and Aircraft Spruce says they haven't got any info on it in their system yet either.
 
Snowflake said:
Rainier, is there any update on availability yet? I don't see anything on the MGL site about it (like an ordering link) apart from the page you have linked to previously, and Aircraft Spruce says they haven't got any info on it in their system yet either.
Click to expand...

We have been shipping them for a while. We started shipping them when this thread was started.

What website are you referring to ? I only maintain www.MGLAvionics.co.za and there have never been ordering links for anything on that website. The reason for that is that due to our reserve bank requirements it is effectively impossible to export goods to individuals from South Africa. The paper work is a nightmare.
This is why we have distributors in other countries which buy in bulk (the paper work for a large shipment is the same as for a small shipment).

If you are in the U.S. then our distributor is at www.MGLAvionics.com.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
We have been running cab floor-mounted computer boxes (386 PC's) for Autofarm Autosteer systems in our farm tractors since 2001. All internal components are linked to the cpu motherboards with ribbon cables. These computers have been subject to a harsh environment that consists of diesel tractor engine short frequency vibrations, driving on uneven terrain resulting in long frequency high-amplitude acellerations interspersed with occasional hard slam perturbations. They are operated in temperatures of between freezing and 110 degrees F (desert Southwest) and the tractor cabs are sealed while parked outside in the sun during the Summer where internal stagnant air temperatures can reach upwards of 120 degrees F. As a rule these farm tractors log more hours and cycles than most homebuilt aircraft. And the Autosteer systems are every bit as safety critical as an aircraft autopilot system. Ever see a 300 hp farm tractor run amuck across a highway or through a structure?

We have never once experienced a failure of a ribbon cable or connector. Other components yes. But never a ribbon cable.

vlittle said:
8 fingers up on this. It's pretty close to what I would have designed if I went this way.

However, I personally do not like the ribbon cable interconnect. Looking around my hangar, I see no tools for fabricating ribbon cables and they are a pig to route through round holes.

My preference would be to use DSUBs at the box end and crimped fast-ons at the switch end. In fact, I built pcbs for my aircraft that adapted low current switches to fast-on terminals for this type of application. I used the split terminals so that 0.110 or 0.25 inch fast-on terminals would fit.

In this fashion, conventional wiring harnesses using tefzel wire could be fabricated and routed easily.

So if you eliminated the ribbon cables, this would be more shop-friendly.

I see no provision for motor (flaps, gear, trim) control which would require low-side switches. Perhaps a product variant later?
Click to expand...
 
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