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Night Ops...????

F

fstringham7a

Well Known Member
So there I was, October 20 something, 2001, beginning my first night cross country to fulfill that requirement as I was well on my way to acheiving my PPL......Obsolute wonderful experience. Great CFI, Beautiful Full Moon Night (CFI wasn't happy about that), strings of lights making a snake neading SW towards Vegas, pockets of lights as we passed the small cities on our way to Overton, NV. Man what's so hard about this.....Landed at Perkins (U08), stopped for some snacks, and talked with a V tail Bonanza Driver we monitored as he was flying from SoCal to Overton where he spent time in his 2nd home most weekends.

Now it was time to begin the return leg. All was well as we climbed out at a mighty 450 F/M in that Cessna 150 heavy:rolleyes: Then it was time for my CFI to begin his mind game. Hey did you check that, did you do this, are you really sure about that, are your radio frequencys correct, what about the altimeter....................The next thing I knew he grew quite. Great now I can get on with the business of flying this plane from THE LEFT SEAT AS THE BIG GUY IN COMMAND.......ya right. He finally broke the silence and said, "what do you see in front of us"......"Lights of a city in the near distance", I say. "Would you expect to see lights of a city", he continued. to my self....aviate, navigate, communicate.....or was it communicate, naviagate, aviate......??????:confused: In the space of just a few minutes I had turned a 180 and was heading back to Overton. JUST THAT FAST!!!!!!!!!The rest of the flight went as planned with even some pretty good night landings (NINE) back home at Saint George (KSGU). I really like this night stuff!

Now fast forward to 2007 and I am in the middle of building my RV7A. This bird is going to be an IFR and night qualified. I was working on the lighting components as This machine could be a christmas tree..remember Christmas Vacation. In walks my good friend who has combat experience off a carrier, airline Capt., great pilot who notes what I am doing and wants to know about my Mission for the airplane. "Day/NIGHT/IFR aircraft", I say. "WHAT" he says.

He then schools me in all the BAD things that can happen flying NIGHT OPS. Ya but.......no buts "you really up your chances of destroying your BUTT flying night ops". He continues, "You won't find me in the air at night". And I am qualified......YA BUT......what about the pretty lights, the twinkling stars, the calm air....."Your best bet is FLY DAY VFR", he continues.

Ya but what does he know......in walks another friend....with all kinds of hours, in all kinds of planes, in all kinds of weather, as an Airline Captain/GA Pilot for the past 40 plus years.

So I ask him about Night Ops.....He continues, "You won't find me in the air at night". "And I am qualified"......His Experimental doesn't have one light on the exterior so I guess he really means it.

So here I am with a plane that has every light known to the aviation community, a panel that would plow through IFR air, heated pitot.............

Finally my points.

I do want to maintaine night current status. In doing this I will always fly with a qualified safety pilot...I know my limitations. I will work towards an IFR ticket to increase my flying skills and to be able to fly in the system when necessary. But, I don't have visions of grandure of flying to minimums on a DARK and STORMY NIGHT.

As has been said, "There are old pilots but few if any old bold pilots". Know your limitations, flight plan, never allow getthereitis to creep into your thinking, only fly at night/IFR knowing the risks and with great capability on your part, and never ever leave a beautiful family, wonderful friends, and the flying community wondering why???????

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... BUZZ ... N74BZ .... Flying
 
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Heh, night flying can be a mind-bender but it's also some of the most beautiful flying. I avoid it because I really have no reason and there's not a lot of good terrain to land in if I should have a problem; at night the little good area to use is impossible to find.

That said, what really gets my head about night flying is terrain awareness. When learning to fly in the SF Bay Area, night flying was no big deal. Plenty of light and easy to see where the terrain lifted. Then I did my night cross-country. It was a Valentine's Day and my instructor and I took a 172 and our girlfriends from Oakland to Harris Ranch for dinner. Again, no problem - get to my altitude for crossing the coastal range, see the lights in the valley, drop down to land. Coming home was another matter; I knew my course should be fine and my profile would get me to altitude before getting near the hills but I couldn't see them. Just how close were they, really? That was a long, sweaty climb until I could see the lights in the Bay. (Then, just for fun, a light layer had moved in, so I got .1 actual instrument going back as we dropped into Oakland. If I had not had my instructor with me, I'd have had to divert to Livermore. Things can change fast; seems faster at night.

A few months ago I had occasion to do a late evening flight from Sedona home to Flagstaff. Now, I've done this flight a bunch of times. Even using runway 3, which launches you straight into a canyon, is not a big deal in the RV; I climb so fast that I'm at KFLG's pattern altitude before I even get into that little notch. So, really, having to do it at night isn't a problem except, again, I couldn't see the rocks around me. Fortunately, synthetic vision is a big help but I still felt better when I saw the airport beacon in front of me, meaning I'd well cleared the terrain. It's not what you can see that's the problem, it's what you can't.
 
I personally think night flying is great and I will take each and every opportunity to stay current and get better with it. I have set some "ground rules" for myself for night flying which includes all the "ground rules" for day flying with increased margins and added items. For instance I will not do a night flight if it crosses some mountainous area, no matter how good of a weather or how urgent, with a single engine I will not take that risk.

Mehrdad
RV7A - IO360M1B
 
Night flying

I love flying at night. I don't think I'd venture too far away in my RV at night but I do use it to commute to and from work. I work 7 days on and 7 off, 12 hour shifts. Approximately 1/4th of my 500 hours on my RV is at night. During this time of the year with short daylight hours, when I'm on day shift, I fly to work in the early morning in the dark and get off long after dark. When I work nights, I only fly to work in the dark. This is all, pretty much urban night flying in the Phoenix area with a few minutes over uninhabited area. My point, you better be prepared. When I had a problem in January, I had an out.

I certainly wouldn't hesitate to fly at night especially in an urban area. For those of us who live in areas with those large pointy things, mountains, you should have a real need and insure that the flight is 100% VFR. As Patrick noted, the inability to see the mountains, even knowing where they are, is unnerving.

For my work, we fly with Night Vision Goggles. I'd love to try them in the RV sometime. We go to areas that are as dark as you could possibly imagine. Landing a helicopter in the middle of the desert when it is this dark would be crazy without the NVG's. On the flip side, this flying is very exciting. You can see forever, the sky is brilliant and air traffic is easy to see. When there is a full moon, if positioned right, you can see the shadow of the helicopter on ground with the NVG's.

In summary, I wouldn't do long cross country's at night as a matter of routine but I'm not afraid of it either. Train and be aware. In this part of the country you can be IFR on a crystal clear night. It IS that dark.
 
My last cross country from CVO (Oregon) to Fort collins colorado was done partly at night..It finally got dark halfway across Wyoming..A bit freaky at first being out over the desert at night.....But a lot of fun too..:)

Frank 1
 
I enjoy flying at night. Just two weeks ago we took the -10 up for it's first night flight. We put four hours of night flying on it in the past two weeks. I have no problem taking a night XC from Savannah to Florida or NC because there are so many airports along the way. I will fly at 9,000-11,000 feet though.
 
I used to enjoy night flight....

....until a Skyhawk I was giving night dual in decided to trash its muffler, ten miles from the airport. The RPM's instantly went to 1900, even with full throttle. I turned directly to the airport and tried pulling the power off and back on. Luckily, it went to 2100-2200 and we managed to limp back and land. A piece of baffling in the muffler had blocked the exhaust.

Another guy had a the exhaust on his RV-6 break and started burning the cowling, forcing a landing.

Night engine failures seldom have a good outcome, no matter what your skill level is. The above two scenarios over dark, mountainous terrain leave you few options as would happen over a big suburban area like San Francisco.

Your airline pilot buddies know these things.

My .02
 
I'm not sure what to think about all of this. Don't kid yourself- everything about this hobby is dangerous. What we like to do is minimize our risk. For many, this involves eliminating night flying.

On the other hand, night flying is one of the best times to be aloft...... if nothing goes wrong. It is beautiful, smooth, and much less congested at most GA airports. Sure, night flying is dangerous and could be considered unnecessary. But so is riding motorcycles, skydiving, scuba diving, and a number of other things many of us enjoy.

Whether you choose to go up at night is a personal choice, and makes you no less of a pilot (as is proved by the original poster's highly experienced friends avoiding night ops). As for me, I will build my a/c with night lighting, and plan to use it during ideal conditions and full moons because taking in the world from a unique viewpoint at night is one of the things that helps me lead a more enjoyable life.

Just my $.02
 
I only have 3.2 hours of night flight because it was required to get my PPL. I enjoyed those 2 flights, and I learned lots of things. The most important thing I learned was that I couldn't climb high enough to feel comfortable, and that I will always plan to be on the ground before it gets dark. My instructor questioned why I chose to climb all the way to 4000' AGL for a 30nm leg of flight, and my answer was "options". I'm not against night flying, I am against flying in the dark. Full moon and clear skies is the only way I plan to fly after nightfall.

My RV will have lights because I love flying before sunrise and after sunset, just not in the dark.
 
Almost done my rating

I have another hour to go to get my night rating. First started in 2006 in a DA20 then taken up again 2 weeks ago in my 7A. What a difference it is flying my own aircraft that I know intimately. I never felt at home in the trainer. I now know where every control is, every sound that the plane makes, and how it will react to my touch. My instructors only complaint was that we could not do a partial panel failure with the EFIS. I did switch it to only EMS so I could fly by the backup instruments and the GPS HSI. Glad for the battery backup in the EFIS and GPS just in case.

I am looking forward to taking my wife and kids up to see the city at night. For those flights I will remain close to the airports and plan emergency landing sites around the small route I will take. I think the greatest advantage will be the ability to get home, weather permitting, when I stayed a bit to long at my destination. I read the report mentioned in a previous post in this thread and I can see how night flying does have more risk for a potential bad outcome in the case of a problem. Too bad because it is so beautiful at night with only 4500' between you an the lights instead of 25 000' as usually viewed from a plane.
 
Incredibly beautiful

One of the top five memorable flights of my life was a night flight 2 or 3 days after I took my private pilot checkride in 1966. This was in a C172 that needed a radio fixed. My checkpilot needed to pick up his C210 at the same shop. I was going to take him over then we would fly back together after the radio was fixed on the 172. As these things tend to happen, the fix took longer than expected and it was now deep night.

I took off first and the other pilot in the 210 flew very loose formation below and behind me. The flight was from Midland, Texas to Carlsbad, New Mexico which is flat land with widely spaced towns around 50 to 100 miles apart. It was breath-taking. There were these jewel towns set in deep blackness. I could pick them all out, Seminole, Hobbs, Wink, Artesia and Roswell, as we progressed.

Even with the beauty I have always flown sparingly at night. Mostly just an arrival during the short Winter days. I got even more cautious after losing a cylinder at night, half way between Hobbs and Carlsbad, in my old Pacer. A Pacer flies pretty well on three cylinders, but it gets the heart rate up a bit, even though this particular route is over a good four-lane highway.

Thanks to this discussion, I had a nightmare last night. Probably because of the above incident, and the fact that the Pacer had poor cockpit lighting, the dream took place in the Pacer. If you take off to the west from my home airport there is a huge area of essentially no ground lights, and on a moonless night you rely on the instruments. In the dream I am trying to do touch and go landings out that direction. It is rough and every time I look into the cockpit the airplane gets upside down and I am having trouble seeing the attitude indicator well enough to recover quickly. I was also having trouble judging distance to the ground and line-up. I had go arounds and close calls with hitting structures around the runway. I ended up landing on a runway under construction by putting it down between various berms. Then I couldn't find a good taxi route back to the ramp and had to cut cross-country.

I have never had an experience remotely like the dream, so I blame you guys!
 
n5lp said:
Thanks to this discussion, I had a nightmare last night. Probably because of the above incident, and the fact that the Pacer had poor cockpit lighting, the dream took place in the Pacer. If you take off to the west from my home airport there is a huge area of essentially no ground lights, and on a moonless night you rely on the instruments. In the dream I am trying to do touch and go landings out that direction. It is rough and every time I look into the cockpit the airplane gets upside down and I am having trouble seeing the attitude indicator well enough to recover quickly. I was also having trouble judging distance to the ground and line-up. I had go arounds and close calls with hitting structures around the runway. I ended up landing on a runway under construction by putting it down between various berms. Then I couldn't find a good taxi route back to the ramp and had to cut cross-country.

I have never had an experience remotely like the dream, so I blame you guys!
Click to expand...
Larry, Now that was some scary night ops!
 
I definitely enjoyed my night training. I chose to get my night rating for additional training, exposure to a different situation and to simply have the skills in my back pocket in case I need them. While I intend to practice night flying to maintain the skill, I probably won't actually plan cross country trips at night. Maybe the occasional sight-seeing flight over the local area but that would be about it.

When I was working on some of my solo time for the rating, there was one night I was doing touch-and-go's. I was on the downwind and out of nowhere a fog bank or low cloud rolled in. Visibility went to zero in an instant. Fortunately, I didn't panic. My eyes went straight to instruments and made sure I was straight and level. I called tower and told them the situation and they cranked up the brightness on the runway lights for me. Needless to say, I changed this to a full-stop instead of a touch-and-go. I made the landing without any problems.

Night flying can be fun but you have to stay really vigilant.

Cheers. :)
 
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To quote my father, an Air Force IP:

Single-engine at night!?
Without a parachute!?
In peacetime!?
You're #$@%ing nuts!!

But I do fly at night occasionally when there is a pressing need...

Dave C
RV 7
Flying
 
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Night Flying

I think flying at night is just another exercise in managing risk.

I love to fly at night. I just did a short nice cross country two nights ago where the visibility was over 70nm. However, I have set personal minimums for myself for flying at night. I developed these as a result of not doing the thing noted, and feeling very uncomfortable during the process.

1) I will not fly at night over a route or to an airport that I haven't flown in daytime VFR conditions.
2) I will not fly at night over large bodies of water.
3) I don't fly hard IFR at night.
4) I will not fly equipment that is in any way not suited to the night trip -- that means things like working and adequate external lighting, working and useful cockpit lighting, working and redundant radios and generally a plane that is in good mechanical shape.

These things keep me comfortable and I think safe in my night flying exploits.
 
RE:Sorry

Sorry Larry for creating your uneasy night terror!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

Frank @ 1L8 ..RV7A... BUZZ ... N74BZ ... Flying


n5lp said:
One of the top five memorable flights of my life was a night flight 2 or 3 days after I took my private pilot checkride in 1966. This was in a C172 that needed a radio fixed. My checkpilot needed to pick up his C210 at the same shop. I was going to take him over then we would fly back together after the radio was fixed on the 172. As these things tend to happen, the fix took longer than expected and it was now deep night.

I took off first and the other pilot in the 210 flew very loose formation below and behind me. The flight was from Midland, Texas to Carlsbad, New Mexico which is flat land with widely spaced towns around 50 to 100 miles apart. It was breath-taking. There were these jewel towns set in deep blackness. I could pick them all out, Seminole, Hobbs, Wink, Artesia and Roswell, as we progressed.

Even with the beauty I have always flown sparingly at night. Mostly just an arrival during the short Winter days. I got even more cautious after losing a cylinder at night, half way between Hobbs and Carlsbad, in my old Pacer. A Pacer flies pretty well on three cylinders, but it gets the heart rate up a bit, even though this particular route is over a good four-lane highway.

Thanks to this discussion, I had a nightmare last night. Probably because of the above incident, and the fact that the Pacer had poor cockpit lighting, the dream took place in the Pacer. If you take off to the west from my home airport there is a huge area of essentially no ground lights, and on a moonless night you rely on the instruments. In the dream I am trying to do touch and go landings out that direction. It is rough and every time I look into the cockpit the airplane gets upside down and I am having trouble seeing the attitude indicator well enough to recover quickly. I was also having trouble judging distance to the ground and line-up. I had go arounds and close calls with hitting structures around the runway. I ended up landing on a runway under construction by putting it down between various berms. Then I couldn't find a good taxi route back to the ramp and had to cut cross-country.

I have never had an experience remotely like the dream, so I blame you guys!
Click to expand...
 
night flying

I did my 10 night full stop landings and 3 hr of night flying but I did not enjoy it that much.

Its kind of like night SCUBA in the ocean - its pitch black and you depend on your flash light to provide limited visibility. On one particular dive, I noticed my light getting dimmer & dimmer. Sea water does ugly things to the inside of a flash light. Needless to say that dive was over.

Like daytime SCUBA, flying in the day is a visual delight. The views are great!

Less risky, of course, in the daylight.

I equipped my -9A with lights mostly for re-sale. There's really no compelling reason for me to fly at night or in marginal wx - so I won't.

I'll own the plane & I don't have a boss waiting for me on Monday so if I'm not OK with the wx on Sunday afternoon, then I'll just leave it on the ground & become a tourist for another day:D

That's my feelings on this for now...

Dave
-9A finish kit
N514R reserved
 
Night Flying

Though my RV-6A is equipped for day/night IFR flight I do not fly at night no matter what. For me it is all about risk tolerance. It is too much risk for me. When I ask myself if I can land my RV at night in the event of an engine failure whether over a city or in the boonies and walk away uninjured to fly another day the answer is NO. Yeah it is beautiful, there is not as much traffic and on and on. I used to fly helicopters over a major city (lots of lighting) for a living day and night. I accepted that risk because I trained to perform night autorotations to the ground and was confident I could set it down in an area not much biggger than the diameter of the main rotor with little or no ground run. Not possible in an airplane.

I think us GA pilots could learn alot from the military about night ops. They use night vision goggles.
 
Night flying

Many negative views represented iin this thread. I love to fly at night, and that includes IFR. The IFR ticket is mandatory, in my mind, to fly on a dark night. Risks are somewhat greater but manageable, at least for my own comfort. Modern GPS nav has made everything so much easier; knowing the nearest airports at all times and adding terrain warnings and SV are huge enhancements to safety. Many have commented on the extraordinary beauty and I certainly agree. One night my daughter and I flew to Mt. Vernon Ohio to look at a college (Kenyon). We had a late departure from Milwaukee and flew by Chicago along the shoreline @ 2900 feet to avoid the "B". Meigs was still open so we had flight following and traffic advisories from tower. As we flew south past the city the sun was creating a glorious multi-colored sunset behind the loop buildings, and the level of light was such that lights in the city balanced that from the sunset almost perfectly - plus the air seemed suffused with a lovely purple coloration. Then to top it all, add in a large, orange full moon rising over Lake Michigan. Incredible! I'll continue to fly at night, though not single engine over mountainous terrain. I wonder how many pilots have experienced an engine failure, day or night. Most pilots I talk to have not. Please chime in with your story if you have had an engine failure. This might be worth a new thread?
 
Dave C said:
To quote my father, an Air Force IP:

Single-engine at night!?
Without a parachute!?
In peacetime!?
You're #$@%ing nuts!!

But I do fly at night occasionally when there is a pressing need...

Dave C
RV 7
Flying
Click to expand...

To quote MY father, a 27-year airline pilot:

"When IFR, you usually break out of the clouds at some point. At night, dark goes all the way to the ground." I don't recall him ever flying at night unless he was getting paid to do it.

Very little (somewhere between 1 and 2 percent) of my flying has been at night, but I really curtailed it when I moved into the mountains. Tehachapi is 4000msl in a small valley surrounded by 6-8000msl mountains. I've only ever flown at night here twice, and would never have considered it without being thoroughly familiar with the terrain. Even then, I added a couple thousand feet to my normal ridge-crossing altitude. VERY weird knowing those mountains are there and not being able to see them. Also, we have a 275-foot hill about 3/4 mile off the west end of the runway. Here's what happened to a non-local who didn't know that. The light he tried to avoid is a marker for the top of the hill.

The most disoriented I've ever felt at night was over Louisiana swamps with no moon and absolutely NO ground lights. It felt like the airplane came to a complete stop.
 
Somehow, I don't think I'd sound as cool, calm and collected at that pilot! Well done. :)
 
18 miles to go and 5600ft to do it in. Sounds like he did a good job. Altitude is your best Friend at night!
 
The toughest IFR I ever flew was on a clear VFR morning over Kansas. There was absolutly NO horizon reference. Farm houses and stars emit about the same light. The auto pilot had failed as I crossed from Colorado to Kansas. I just turned up all the lights and flew the gauges. Two hour on the gauges wears you down. If I were not IFR qualified and current this VFR flight could have been tougher. The flight home from Florida was daylight only.
Never fly at night without a well lit sky unless hard IFR is in your bag. I think night flying is wonderful but not with out it's risks. To circle the city at night is one thing but to take off at night cross country a auto pilot is as important as it is while IFR. A auto pilot is a NO GO item for night cross countries or IFR for me. It is much safer when I can monitor the systems without being one of them.
 
For the first few years after I had my PPL, I spent a lot of time in the air at night. I would fly from Petaluma to Palo Alto CA and go right down the bay between Oakland and SFO.

Then one night I was over Santa Rosa CA at 2000 feet and two thirds of the head of #2 exhaust valve broke off!!!!! HOLY SH@&! the Piper started to shake like mad.... I scanned the gauges and found nothing wrong. I pulled the power back till I found a comfort zone that I felt good with (the vibration decreased) and headed for STS about 7 miles away. I arrived way too high and had to slip it in. I just didn't want to give up any alt.

Arrived without a problem and was met with a fire truck when I got to the ramp. A quick look and you could feel that #2 was cold. When the jug was pulled, the exhaust valve had only 1/3 of it's head still there. The other 2/3 had broken into two pieces and went out the port and was found in the muffler.

Mark one up for low compression....... The piston and head were trashed, but the rod was OK! The 320 ran ok on three cyl's at about 1600 rpm. But if that other 1/3 of the valve head had broken off, the ending might have been way more expensive.

4 new ECI cyl kits and we were "BACK IN THE AIR AGIAN"

I SURE MISS FLYING AT NIGHT
 
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Yep. I logged a lot of night hours in the old C150 & C172s in my early years. I was young and invincible. We do maintain night currency and proficiency these days, but the flight profile is VERY different than normal ops. We will also do parts of a XC leg in night, but with the full understanding that it is just like gambling. Very exciting, but one day it might not be worth it. Single engine night is just a numbers game. We only do it IFR now, and the legs are defined by small airports with lights and lots of altitude in between.
 
I recently flew from quantico virginia to stennis mississippi and back in one night in a 206. i agree that options are limited but with a competent aircraft/pilot combination it can be done safely. key factor - know your limitations and be realistic about them.
 
Having had an engine failure during the day and over a dense forest, I was able to find a small field to put the airplane down. I survived. The airplane didn't. If it had happened at night, I could have never found the field. Outcome would have probably been much different.

These days, I maintain my night currency. But the only night flying I do is when the sun has set while enroute back home and there's not too far to go.
 
Reminds me of...

MLock said:
Having had an engine failure during the day and over a dense forest, I was able to find a small field to put the airplane down. I survived. The airplane didn't. If it had happened at night, I could have never found the field. Outcome would have probably been much different.

These days, I maintain my night currency. But the only night flying I do is when the sun has set while enroute back home and there's not too far to go.
Click to expand...

...tongue in cheek instruction on night forced forced landing procedures from John Hill the CFI (Chief Flying Instructor - Qualified Flying Instructors or QFIs are the equivalent of CFIs in the USA) at the Coventry Aeroplane Club. John was an RAF WWII pilot and passed away quite a few years ago.

Best Glide Speed
Restart Procedures
Select Landing Site
Reduce electrical load
When close to landing site switch on landing light
If site looks good leave light on
If site looks bad switch light off

Jim Sharkey
 
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For our return flight back from Oshkosh to CA this year we were up for some real bad weather for a number of days in a row and our best possibility was to take off very early in the morning to pass the Rockies by the time the weather was going to move in. So, we took off at 3:00 AM with very good weather and clear sky. It was an absolute peaceful and easy flight. My wife and I both agreed to this plan only knowing that for the duration of the night we would be over flat land. We arrived at our first fuel stop at 7:00 AM some where in Nebraska and by the time we passed the Rockies we could see the nasty weather building up behind us and the Red/Yellow cells appearing on our XM Weather just where we had passed an hour or so earlier. We were very happy to have got ahead of the storm .

Mehrdad
RV7A - IO360M1B
 
night fright

Great topic. It takes a lot of night time behind the stick to gain confidence when flying at night. Landing and taking off in mountain conditions, with zero lights and no moon is a major test of skill and daring which I used to have when flying helicopters in Vietnam. I'm older and hopefully wiser now. My RV will be Night qualified, but really, maybe better described as dusk qualified. The 'ole old/bold thing.
Best (or maybe worst) thing about night flying then is we could see all the tracers.
 
If it has less than 2 engines, I tend to do as little flying when the sun goes down as I can...
 
Tram said:
If it has less than 2 engines, I tend to do as little flying when the sun goes down as I can...
Click to expand...

with my funky depth perception i have a tendency to have better landings at night.. easier for me to judge distance at night :D
 
Night? Not...

Single engine at night is asking for trouble. Old experienced pilots, most, do not fly at night. My Airline pilot friends that fly RVs do not fly after dark. I have not had a flying job in my 4000 hours and flying at night might be fun and pretty,,, but not for me. I want to be an old, real old pilot.
 
Night flying

Night flying whether over a well lit city, full moon, "flat" terrain etc exceeds my tolerance for risk. I think it boils down to your answer to one simple question.
If the engine quits at night can I survive an emergency landing at a place I have never seen before with a touchdown speed of 40-60 mph? Flying over a well lit city may seem appealing but most roads have powerlines criss-crossing them not to mention cars, pedestians etc. and I don't want to take some innocent bystander with me.

Most military pilots are far better trained than I am and they do not fly at night without night vision goggles. A very experienced law enforcement helicopter pilot I know told me he would not fly in/over the desert at night without night vision goggles. An engine failure in a helo is a lot more manageable than an engine failure in an airplane where an autorotaion can be performed with a zero or near zero touchdown speed. Remember the energy equation mass X velocity squared. The difference between hitting something at 30 mph and 60 mph is not just doubled.

It can be pretty to fly at night but for me that is not enough to out weigh the added risk IMHO.
 
I am amazed at how many pilots consider an engine failure to be a near impossibility.............

(I ceased night flying many years ago)
 
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Tram said:
If it has less than 2 engines, I tend to do as little flying when the sun goes down as I can...
Click to expand...

Same here. Additionally, depending on the location, night VFR flying in a single was some of the scariest flying I have ever done, and I was more than proficient and qualified.
 
What Sam said.

Before my wife and I lost our engine over low fog conditions north of Bakersfield, CA, I considered losing an (THE) engine a near impossibility. We were very lucky. :eek:

Obstacle clearance shouldn't really be the issue. Following IFR procedures will keep you safe. It's the loss of critical to flight hardware (and now software I guess) that gives me pause.
 
Really, what is the risk?

Given that flying at night is often the same as flying instruments. If you can't fly instruments, I suggest keeping the airplane parked at night.

Beyond that, most of the arguments against night flight seem centered around engine out landings.

I realize they happen, but if I based all my flying decisions on the possibility of an engine out I would stay on the ground. Every takeoff and landing is an opportunity to get killed because the engine quit

By the way, I've never had an engine out
 
Even with a dead engine

I still have a glider. That's why I fly high sucking O2 when en-route. A glider gives you options but they are very few if you don't have 1 or 2 thousand feet of day(like) VFR between you and the ground.

It's true there are some mountainous areas where no reasonable altitude will let me glide to a good landing spot. My pucker factor is a lot higher in these situations than it was before that continental quit...
 
By the way, I've never had an engine out

I've had three engine outs. Luckily, all in multi-engine aircraft. One was night over MSY, the other, day in IMC conditions over IAH. Only one was day VFR conditions. I'm certain the other two would have had bad outcomes if I had been single engine.
Flying single engine at night can be done safely. I only do it with good moonlight, VFR, and stay over major roads, interstates, etc.
Just my .02c worth.
 
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040920X01462&key=1

I posted this url once before as to why it is not a good idea for new pilots without an instrument rating to fly at night. The FAA minimum night training for the PPL is not adequate. This accident happened just after 9pm on a clear night about 5 miles from our home at that time and there was plenty of night city lights except in the direction of the missed approach.

ALL flying has risk attached to it. With a risk meter, imagined or otherwise, SEL day VFR would come in at a relatively low reading while IFR and/or night will come in as a greater risk. A properly equipped aircraft will come in at a lower risk at night, IFR than day, VFR because there are fewer airplanes to run into - at least that's how I viewed it in a previous life. Night IFR was preferable 'cause there were fewer Cherokees, Apaches or Aztecs, etc. about. :)

Flying at night is OK, just know and accept the risk and be acutely aware of your limitations on the gages. Many nights there is no horizon. Good proficiency with the panel is a must because outside references can disappear quickly.

I don't fly at night in these airplanes. If it were a matter of such urgency that it could not be avoided, it would be very high and flight planned over as many long lit runways as possible. Like flight planning across Lake Michigan on the way OSH - go high and calculate the pucker time over the middle. I've done that and there is a point north of Green Bay where it was a reasonable risk as opposed to dodging airplanes and air space around the south shore.
 
So, what about the details?

jmbrwn said:
By the way, I've never had an engine out

I've had three engine outs. .........
Click to expand...

I know they happen.

I have some questions that would help me and others understand how your results relate to our chances of the same problem:

what is your total flying time?

were all three in the same airplane?

What kind of airplane/s?

did you own the airplane/s?

what caused the engine outs?
 
I enjoy flying at night.

But, around the home area I know many good spots I can find day or night. Going places, I typically am within gliding range of airports or interstates. (Interstates in Texas typically have a nice swatch of grass runway down the middle.) While I'm a VFR pilot, I've also done a decent amount of real IMC dual work during day and night...not that I would ever plan to rely on it.

That said, if I lost an engine, I'd like to have a second. But if I had to make an emergency landing, I'd rather be flying a SEL like the DA20 I usually fly that has a great glide and very slow stall speed.
 
Steve Brown said:
what is your total flying time?

were all three in the same airplane?

What kind of airplane/s?

did you own the airplane/s?

what caused the engine outs?
Click to expand...
What does any of this matter? An engine failure can happen to anyone, in any aircraft, at any time.
 
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