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GO-AROUND BUTTON

S

stancaruthers

Well Known Member
Has anyone installed GA button, if so where did you locate it.
I wanted to use the bottom blue button on the Infinity however Garmin calls for momentary DPST switch and it appears the stick buttons are SPST ??
 
I don't know that the stick grip would be a good place for a to/ga button. It will pitch you up to a set angle like right now. I have mine mounted on the panel to the left of my GTN650. Very close to the throttle.
Very nice function to have if flying IFR. I believe Stien sells them. Cute little red button.
 
I defiantly will put on TOGA button somewhere in my build. Thought about the blue button as well but didn't check specifics on if that was a DPDT or if it was possible. That blue button is awkward enough to get to that I wouldn't worry about accidental pressing.

I've also though somewhere around the throttle quadrant where when you go all in you can hit the button as well.
 
If I was installing one I'd put it near the throttle so that as you advance the throttle you can hit the button as you come up to full power.

31662382655_6c9f19537d_b.jpg
 
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If you really want it on your stick, you could use the SPST button to trigger a DPST relay behind the panel.
 
MarkW said:
I don't know that the stick grip would be a good place for a to/ga button. It will pitch you up to a set angle like right now.
Click to expand...

I've never flown a non-turbine aircraft with a TOGA button but it should NEVER pitch you up to ANY angle. The very first thing it should do is disconnect the autopilot and THEN pitch the flight director command bars up to the proper full-power climb pitch angle. I suspect that is what you meant. That being said, the best place for a TOGA button, as mentioned, is next to the throttle.
 
I'm not advocating one way or another, but if the switch is not what you want, give JD a call at Infinity. He has switches in stock he can sell you and also a nicely modified socket you can use to loosen the hex nut that holds them in the grip. Not a difficult switch (pun not intended) and you can probably do it sitting in the pilot's seat without breaking a sweat.

I changed out my rear stick flap retract switch to a momentary contact type after I couldn't lower my flaps because the rear switch was left in the up position......
 
Veetail88 said:
I'm not advocating one way or another, but if the switch is not what you want, give JD a call at Infinity. He has switches in stock he can sell you and also a nicely modified socket you can use to loosen the hex nut that holds them in the grip. Not a difficult switch (pun not intended) and you can probably do it sitting in the pilot's seat without breaking a sweat.

I changed out my rear stick flap retract switch to a momentary contact type after I couldn't lower my flaps because the rear switch was left in the up position......
Click to expand...
+1 for this comment. I also changed out my flap switch on the Infinity grip. It is not a difficult process.
 
No clue on where to install, but I'm quite sure the switch (blue) can be substituted to a momentary one if you like. And yes the boost button is not comfortable to access but it's not bad for the boost function. I would expect that if you were using this button for GA you would not be using it all the time and you would not get accostum to it's position as you would in the boost pump mode.
 
Rupester said:
What exactly does a go-around button do?
Click to expand...

I suspect the answer to this question depends on the system being used, however with my Garmin G3X Touch, and with the autopilot connected, it commands the autopilot to do a 500 fpm climb (this is how I have it set. When connected to my GNS430W, when I hit the DH on a coupled approach I hit the Suspend button on the GNS and the Go Around button on the panel, and apply power. The airplane then ascends to my specified altitude and flys the missed approach.

My TOGA button is the square orange one on the right of my panel.

20160119_142847%20(800x480).jpg
 
Learning enough now to be down right dangerous.
Garmin say's I can use blue button, all I need to do is purchase 2ea of Diode part# 1N4007 so the wire from the GEA24 will not back feed to the GTN750 and vise versa.
The pitch angle is whatever you program it to be 5-7 deg, and the auto pilot will stay engaged and fly the missed for that particular approach, you just need to manage throttle.....when I'm at DA and runway is not where it should be....I'm afterburner anyways chasing the command bars hoping they point up ;)
 
SMO said:
I suspect the answer to this question depends on the system being used, however with my Garmin G3X Touch, and with the autopilot connected, it commands the autopilot to do a 500 fpm climb (this is how I have it set. When connected to my GNS430W, when I hit the DH on a coupled approach I hit the Suspend button on the GNS and the Go Around button on the panel, and apply power. The airplane then ascends to my specified altitude and flys the missed approach.

My TOGA button is the square orange one on the right of my panel.

20160119_142847%20(800x480).jpg
Click to expand...


HOLY SMOKES....BE U DEE FULL
 
SMO said:
I suspect the answer to this question depends on the system being used, however with my Garmin G3X Touch, and with the autopilot connected, it commands the autopilot to do a 500 fpm climb (this is how I have it set. When connected to my GNS430W, when I hit the DH on a coupled approach I hit the Suspend button on the GNS and the Go Around button on the panel, and apply power. The airplane then ascends to my specified altitude and flys the missed approach.

My TOGA button is the square orange one on the right of my panel.

20160119_142847%20(800x480).jpg
Click to expand...

Yep. For the G1000, pressing the GA button disconnects the auto pilot, activates the missed approach if an approach was active, commands a 7deg climb via the Flight Director, and switches the NAV source back to GPS if ILS/LOC/VOR was the selected nav source.
 
Don't Forget the Backup Go Around Button

The one between your ears - to be immediately activated after you determine that all that automation isn't performing as programmed.

1. Simultaneous full power, enough nose up attitude for positive rate of climb, nose down trim
2. Autopilot off - if you really have to fly with autopilot engaged near the dirt
3. Check attitude, altitude and airspeed/AOA
4. Flaps up
5. Check attitude and airspeed
6. Check altitude
7. Check / adjust power
8. Navigate
9. Communicate
 
How I use TOGA

I have my TOGA button just to the right of my 307 panel, which very close to my Mixture control. This gives me quick easy access to it when manipulating the engine controls and 307.

I've been doing training with a guy (Matt) that flies biz jets for his day job. Even though his work planes use a different brand of avionics - functionally the G3X works just like the jets he flies.

Since training with Matt, I've start using TOGA a lot more. For Takeoff, I turn on the Flight Director by pushing the FD button on the 307 panel (AP is off). I then hit HDG on the 307 and align the heading bug to runway heading. I then dial-in my initial altitude.

After takeoff, I keep the heading bug in sync with the heading that I'm hand flying - so when I switch the AP ON, nothing crazy happens (keeps my existing heading and climbs to pre-set altitude). I usually go into VS mode at this point also with climb rate of 5-700 fpm.

During an approach, I load my Missed Approach altitude just before the FAF. When I get to the MAP, I push in the throttle and hit the TOGA button. The AP does NOT disconnent when I hit the TOGA. It starts the programmed pitch up (5 degrees for me) and flies the Missed course.

When I get to a safe altitude, I dial back the climb to 5-700 fpm. The AP then flies the full Missed procedure and stays in the Hold until I tell the AP to do something differnt.
 
Auburntsts said:
Yep. For the G1000, pressing the GA button disconnects the auto pilot, activates the missed approach if an approach was active, commands a 7deg climb via the Flight Director, and switches the NAV source back to GPS if ILS/LOC/VOR was the selected nav source.
Click to expand...

One would hope that it does gives ample warning that the auto pilot was disconnected.

Mine works just as Mark described it. It is a MISSED button and sets the flight director to do a preset climb rate (mine is set to 500) and then follow the missed approach if there was an active approach plan. If coupled to the auto pilot, the auto pilot will drive it as such.
 
SabreFlyr said:
I've never flown a non-turbine aircraft with a TOGA button but it should NEVER pitch you up to ANY angle.
Click to expand...

Dynon does just that. New in software Version 14. Tested it a few times on practice missed approaches and works fine. Here's the note from Dynon:

New: Go around mode. When on an approach in VNAV mode, pressing any of the Nose up button on the SV-AP-PANEL, the AUTOPILOT > PITCH > GO AROUND button on-screen, or an external button (display discrete input #2) will activate go-around mode. Go-around mode changes the AP lateral mode to TRK mode with the approach inbound course as the target. Pitch mode is switched to either IAS or VS mode (setup-dependent) with the default climb VS or IAS selected. An ?ADD POWER? annunciation is also provided on the PFD page.
 
pvalovich said:
The one between your ears - to be immediately activated after you determine that all that automation isn't performing as programmed.

1. Simultaneous full power, enough nose up attitude for positive rate of climb, nose down trim
2. Autopilot off - if you really have to fly with autopilot engaged near the dirt
3. Check attitude, altitude and airspeed/AOA
4. Flaps up
5. Check attitude and airspeed
6. Check altitude
7. Check / adjust power
8. Navigate
9. Communicate
Click to expand...

I agree with all of that, except I would point out that in many airplanes, and most RVs, abrupt application of full power can make a missed approach or go around much more difficult.

RVs, like a lot of turbine aircraft, have gobs of excess power available down low. A go around doesn't need to be a panicky, rushed affair. Smooth application of enough power to arrest the descent is all you need. Get the trims sorted, the airplane cleaned up, and then adjust power as needed.

The toga button can be configured to give you whatever pitch attitude you want, but putting it somewhere below a max effort obstacle clearance climb reduces workload.

Of course if you're going around from a short runway in a canyon, that changes things...
 
flyeyes said:
I agree with all of that, except I would point out that in many airplanes, and most RVs, abrupt application of full power can make a missed approach or go around much more difficult.

RVs, like a lot of turbine aircraft, have gobs of excess power available down low. A go around doesn't need to be a panicky, rushed affair. Smooth application of enough power to arrest the descent is all you need. Get the trims sorted, the airplane cleaned up, and then adjust power as needed.

The toga button can be configured to give you whatever pitch attitude you want, but putting it somewhere below a max effort obstacle clearance climb reduces workload.

Of course if you're going around from a short runway in a canyon, that changes things...
Click to expand...

Are you say's set it to 5 degree climb instead of 5 g's ?? LOL
 
Go Around Next to Throttle Control

IMG_20161120_163416.jpg


I located mine next to the throttle, to be pushed as power is advanced for the G/A. G/A's are a busy enough maneuver (and not practiced much, either) that I didn't want it to be something I had to go looking for...it needed to be prominently located.

As far as commercial air transport setups go, in my ~30 years in the airline biz most of the G/A buttons there are located on/in the thrust levers, and are used not only to initiate the go-around but can also be used to "wake" the auto-thrust system up (if equipped) on takeoff as well.

Good discussion...
 
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Don't waste your time pushing buttons, especially those that make you take your hands off the controls. Fly the plane. The best efis screen is the windshield. All the data is there.
 
sblack said:
Don't waste your time pushing buttons, especially those that make you take your hands off the controls. Fly the plane. The best efis screen is the windshield. All the data is there.
Click to expand...

Unless, of course, you are IMC in fog or the clouds. Then there ain't much info in the windscreen! ;)

Seems to me this is primarily an IFR/IMC discussion.......
 
PCHunt said:
Unless, of course, you are IMC in fog or the clouds. Then there ain't much info in the windscreen! ;)

Seems to me this is primarily an IFR/IMC discussion.......
Click to expand...

Is it a common practice for pilots to take their hands off a primary control and look away from the instruments to push a button during a go-around?
 
larrynew said:
Dynon does just that. New in software Version 14. Tested it a few times on practice missed approaches and works fine. Here's the note from Dynon:

New: Go around mode. When on an approach in VNAV mode, pressing any of the Nose up button on the SV-AP-PANEL, the AUTOPILOT > PITCH > GO AROUND button on-screen, or an external button (display discrete input #2) will activate go-around mode. Go-around mode changes the AP lateral mode to TRK mode with the approach inbound course as the target. Pitch mode is switched to either IAS or VS mode (setup-dependent) with the default climb VS or IAS selected. An ?ADD POWER? annunciation is also provided on the PFD page.
Click to expand...

I don't know about others but I'm quite wary of any system that will cause the autopilot itself (as opposed to your own muscles deliberately applying the requisite force) pitching the airplane up suddenly. In my thinking, the problem is with an inadvertent activation. The surprise element might cause a delay in the application of adequate climb power for the climb angle. Maybe it's just me but I think Part 25 certification requirements require that for a good reason.
 
SabreFlyr said:
I don't know about others but I'm quite wary of any system that will cause the autopilot itself (as opposed to your own muscles deliberately applying the requisite force) pitching the airplane up suddenly. In my thinking, the problem is with an inadvertent activation. The surprise element might cause a delay in the application of adequate climb power for the climb angle. Maybe it's just me but I think Part 25 certification requirements require that for a good reason.
Click to expand...


Then you need to be concerned about every Part 121 airliner coming out the factory door, because every one of them does it on an autopilot-coupled G/A...and flight crews are trained (particularly in weather <CAT I) to leave the autopilot engaged, monitor and only kick it off if it's not doing what you want.

Numerous studies have shown that turning the autopilot off during a G/A increases workload, not decreases it.

If you inadvertently activate G/A mode, there's really a simple solution-GO AROUND! IMC low to the ground is not the time to try and problem solve/trouble shoot what the flight guidance or autopilot is doing.

Go around, sort out the issue and set up for the next approach.

My dos centavos....
 
sblack said:
Is it a common practice for pilots to take their hands off a primary control and look away from the instruments to push a button during a go-around?
Click to expand...

Yes. Several non primary control items that typically have to be addressed by a pilot during a go-around:

1. Flaps
2. Undercarriage
3. Manual trim (if equipped)
4. Instruments (nav frequency, nav head setting, GPS suspend/sequence mode, , altitude and heading bugs, etc)
5. Radio

Skylor
RV-8
 
SabreFlyr said:
I don't know about others but I'm quite wary of any system that will cause the autopilot itself (as opposed to your own muscles deliberately applying the requisite force) pitching the airplane up suddenly. In my thinking, the problem is with an inadvertent activation. The surprise element might cause a delay in the application of adequate climb power for the climb angle. Maybe it's just me but I think Part 25 certification requirements require that for a good reason.
Click to expand...

And Dynon helps overcome this concern by allowing you to program an IAS climb. Without the requisite power, it shouldn't pitch until power is applied. If it was a V/S only option, your concern would be much more validated.
 
SabreFlyr said:
I don't know about others but I'm quite wary of any system that will cause the autopilot itself (as opposed to your own muscles deliberately applying the requisite force) pitching the airplane up suddenly. In my thinking, the problem is with an inadvertent activation. The surprise element might cause a delay in the application of adequate climb power for the climb angle. Maybe it's just me but I think Part 25 certification requirements require that for a good reason.
Click to expand...

Cannot speak to other autopilots, but the Trio has built in safeguards against an accidental stall; e.g., regardless of what is commanded it will pitch DOWN, as required, to maintain IAS at or above xxx (XXX is programable by the user, mine is set to 70 kias). (Not that the PIC shouldn't be watching it like a hawk, too.)
But every software solution has a potential problem, too. This means that if I let the IAS get down to 70 kias on the approach, on a go-around the autopilot will not pitch up until after the plane has accelerated. Not what you want at 200' agl.
 
Aggie78 said:
Then you need to be concerned about every Part 121 airliner coming out the factory door, because every one of them does it on an autopilot-coupled G/A...and flight crews are trained (particularly in weather <CAT I) to leave the autopilot engaged, monitor and only kick it off if it's not doing what you want.
Click to expand...

Well, it may be more a matter of what I'm used to. I definitely have to agree with coupled approaches with weather near minimums. And I can see coupled go arounds with autothrottle. But I've never had the opportunity to fly a coupled go around and it's something I'd really have to think about.
 
sblack said:
Is it a common practice for pilots to take their hands off a primary control and look away from the instruments to push a button during a go-around?
Click to expand...

No, but lets be clear on what we're talking about. This button is a bit misnamed IMO. The situation we're talking about that would generally benefit from such a capability is the execution of a missed approach, not a VFR pattern go around. The most likely cause of a missed approach is lack of required in-flight visibility resulting in the inability to visually acquire the runway environment prior to reaching the missed approach point/DA/DH, as the case may be. Then intent then is to quickly apply power, establish a positive rate a climb and transition to flying the missed approach procedure. That's why the TOGA/GA button, typically located near the throttle so it can be located by feel alone, makes this a one step process by allowing the pilot to do all of these these things with minimum effort while staying focused on the primary flight instruments. Can all of this be safely done without a TOGA button-- absolutely. But as with a lot of the newer avionics, the TOGA can reduce workload at a very critical phase of flight.
 
Auburntsts said:
No, but lets be clear on what we're talking about. This button is a bit misnamed IMO. The situation we're talking about that would generally benefit from such a capability is the execution of a missed approach, not a VFR pattern go around. The most likely cause of a missed approach is lack of required in-flight visibility resulting in the inability to visually acquire the runway environment prior to reaching the missed approach point/DA/DH, as the case may be. Then intent then is to quickly apply power, establish a positive rate a climb and transition to flying the missed approach procedure. That's why the TOGA/GA button, typically located near the throttle so it can be located by feel alone, makes this a one step process by allowing the pilot to do all of these these things with minimum effort while staying focused on the primary flight instruments. Can all of this be safely done without a TOGA button-- absolutely. But as with a lot of the newer avionics, the TOGA can reduce workload at a very critical phase of flight.
Click to expand...

That was very well thought out and spoken like a true Instrument proficient Airman...;)
 
SPST

For the OP, not sure if the original guidance from Garmin was for a DPST switch but I used a SPST switch with my G3X/ GTN 650 and it works perfectly. I now use the DPST switch from Stein but only because the Garmin now recommends it!
For all the nay sayers, Garmin has designed a superb system that works perfectly in our RV's!

Fly an ILS or LPV at 100 knots and around 11 inches of MP to DH.
Runway in sight........reduce power, drop flaps, ........at 50 ft disengage autopilot and land. Autotrim will keep up with the flap deployment.
Runway not in sight....... press TO/GA button and smoothly apply go around power. Aircraft will pitch up the predetermined degrees (5 in my case) and fly the missed approach procedure including entering a hold.
The autotrim functions perfectly during the go around.
I place the TO/GA button near the throttle but the blue pinky button will work just fine.
 
MercFE said:
And Dynon helps overcome this concern by allowing you to program an IAS climb. Without the requisite power, it shouldn't pitch until power is applied. If it was a V/S only option, your concern would be much more validated.
Click to expand...

Here's a question on this part though - can I have an IAS climb specific for G/A and the separate standard autopilot rate climb for non-G/A use? Does Skyview handle them differently?
 
When I was training for my IR, I flew 172s with G1000s. A G1000 coupled to either a Bendix KAP140 or the Garmin GFC700 autopilots will eventually drive you to a stall (at which time the AP will automatically disconnect :rolleyes: ) if you select Vertical Speed for a climb (albeit it will take forever). Regardless, my procedure when coupled was to always climb via airspeed and usually descend via VS.

I try to do the same in my RV-10, but as I have a legacy G3X with a TruTrak GX Pilot and no GMC 305, I don't have an airspeed select capability (just VS) or TOGA for that matter -- wish I did.
 
Rupester said:
What exactly does a go-around button do?
Click to expand...

It's actually known as a TOGA button (take-off and go-around), and on the Garmin G3X, it activates a sequence for take-off (pitches up a designated number of degrees) or the sequence for go-around (pitches up and activates the missed approach procedure on the lateral side of the autopilot guidance). That's kind of a brief description, others may expand on it. Here is where I located mine on the RV-6 (lower left corner of the photo, below the radio stack):

 
This discussion brings back memories of "back when". My last AF flying assignment was KC-10s out of RIV in 1985-89. We were taught that a coupled GA was an emergency procedure because of the size of the aircraft. At 200' DH the heavy metal continues to settle as the engines spool up and unless the GA is aggressive, the wheels will touch down just as the aircraft begins to climb. Pressing the TOGA button in a coupled GA results the 3 throttles going to full max limits, the nose pitches up to 15 degrees above the horizon. As the 50,000# from each engine comes on line, you actually feel the acceleration in the vertical and horizontal planes as you are pressed into your seat, both back and down. All you can see thru the windscreen is sky. Reaching up to gear handle can be a chore and especially reaching further up to the FMA panel to re-program the FMS to the new hold down altitude, heading, and airspeed before you oversped your gear doors and flaps, or bust the hold down altitude. Ahh for the good old days, I remember them fondly. What I wouldn't give to be young and stupid again. Dan from Reno
 
guccidude1 said:
Pressing the TOGA button in a coupled GA results the 3 throttles going to full max limits, the nose pitches up to 15 degrees above the horizon. As the 50,000# from each engine comes on line, you actually feel the acceleration in the vertical and horizontal planes as you are pressed into your seat, both back and down. All you can see thru the windscreen is sky. Reaching up to gear handle can be a chore and especially reaching further up to the FMA panel to re-program the FMS to the new hold down altitude, heading, and airspeed before you oversped your gear doors and flaps, or bust the hold down altitude.
Click to expand...

That's what you get for flying a DC-10-30 equivalent with GE's vs DC-10-40's with subpar Pratts :)
 
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