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Tip up blues.

goldbar

Member
My first attempt posting images, wish me luck.
I have been wrestling with this far too long, wish there were a tipup near by that I could just go look at from time to time, no such luck. Several questions, all related to getting the tip up canopy fit dialed in.
This is how the forward top skin F-771 and F-702 skin match, looks right I think.
1.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]


the next image is as I try to tip-up the canopy (use your imagination) and this is as far as she goes.
2.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]


so I know trimming will be in order down the road, but I'm nervous this should somehow be cleared up before moving on ? and if so, how?

Two more images showing the side fit of the F-702 skin, is this where bending the canopy frame a wee bit here and there to get the fit (that changes with each new piece of the whole added) correct to match the side of the fuselage?
towards the aft of the f-702 perhaps an 3/16ths.
3.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

and towards the front of the F-702 about the same-ish.
4.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]



so these are my first image postings, I read all that I could till interest waned, so hoping these work.

Cheers.
kelly
 
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Hi Kelly,

I've just run this gauntlet and know your pain. Note my signature line ;-)

My first attempt posting images, wish me luck.
I have been wrestling with this far too long, wish there were a tipup near by that I could just go look at from time to time, no such luck. Several questions, all related to getting the tip up canopy fit dialed in.

This is how the forward top skin F-771 and F-702 skin match, looks right I think.
1.jpg.html

This looks reasonable; maybe a bit of a gap at the bottom edge near the fuse.

the next image is as I try to tip-up the canopy (use your imagination) and this is as far as she goes.
2.jpg.html


so I know trimming will be in order down the road, but I'm nervous this should somehow be cleared up before moving on ? and if so, how?

This is a common problem and is usually fixed by trimming the 702 skin. Because the hinge point is below the skin surface, the 702 skin moves forward and up initially, so the gap closes and your canopy is stuck.

Another problem I found on my build was that my initial riveting of the frame halves, the position of WD-716 was a bit low, causing the 702 to bend and pull back a bit from the gap. This compounds the problem above because as the canopy lifts, the skin straightens and lengthens, requiring an even wider gap between 771 and 702.

Here's a quick drawing (worth 1000 words):

2q407mf.jpg


I would definitely check to see if you have this depressed WD-716 effect; you'll want to correct that (shims will work if the depression is not too big), otherwise the skin/skin gap will be larger than you would probably like. The rest of the gap is due to the location of the tipper pivots, but there's not much we can do about this when built to plans.

Two more images showing the side fit of the F-702 skin, is this where bending the canopy frame a wee bit here and there to get the fit (that changes with each new piece of the whole added) correct to match the side of the fuselage?
towards the aft of the f-702 perhaps an 3/16ths.
3.jpg.html

I had to work at bending the frame to get the skirts to line up with the fuse. As you know, every rivet changes the shape of the thing, and in the end I was probably 1/16" off to the inside. I tried to shim (which would have worked) but the gap wouldn't have been perfect, so I decided to glass it like so many others before me. Now, the fit is like a glove.

and towards the front of the F-702 about the same-ish.
4.jpg.html

This looks like 702 is a bit proud of the fuse. Mine still has a bit of this too. the pre-punched holes in the skin and WD-716 frame seem to set this distance, as does the location of the center point of the frame with respect to F771/F768A. (you can imagine, if you push down on the center of the frame, the left and right bottom edges will bow out as the frame rotates around the pivot points.) I would have liked the flexibility to NOT have the frame pre-drilled, so I could set the width better in the front.

It's a slow and sometimes frustrating process. Read and re-read all other posts here on VAF on this subject and go slow. I know if I build another canopy, it will come out quite a bit better because of all the gotchas that you didn't know a week or a month ago when you did some op.

Keep at it.

Oh, and you'll absolutely want to make a set of canopy stops, similar to Bruce's below. My canopy shifted 3/32 ~ 1/8 of an inch forward (when closed) when the struts went on.

http://www.europa.com/~swayze/RV-7A/Finishing/20120225.html
 
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Hi Kelly,

I've just run this gauntlet and know your pain. Note my signature line ;-)



This looks reasonable; maybe a bit of a gap at the bottom edge near the fuse.



This is a common problem and is usually fixed by trimming the 702 skin. Because the hinge point is below the skin surface, the 702 skin moves forward and up initially, so the gap closes and your canopy is stuck.

Another problem I found on my build was that my initial riveting of the frame halves, the position of WD-716 was a bit low, causing the 702 to bend and pull back a bit from the gap. This compounds the problem above because as you lift, the skin straightens and lengthens, requiring an even wider gap between 771 and 702.

Here's a quick drawing (worth 1000 words):

2q407mf.jpg


I would definitely check to see if you have this depressed WD-716 effect; you'll want to correct that (shims will work if the depression is not too big), otherwise the skin/skin gap will be larger than you would probably like. The rest of the gap is due to the location of the tipper pivots, but there's not much we can do about this when built to plans.



I had to work at bending the frame to get the skirts to line up with the fuse. As you know, every rivet changes the shape of the thing, and in the end I was probably 1/16" off to the inside. I tried to shim (which would have worked) but the gap wouldn't have been perfect, so I decided to glass it like so many others before me. Now, the fit is like a glove.



This looks like 702 is a bit proud of the fuse. Mine still has a bit of this too. the pre-punched holes in the skin and WD-716 frame seem to set this distance, as does the location of the center point of the frame with respect to F771/F768A. (you can imagine, if you push down on the center of the frame, the left and right bottom edges will bow out as the frame rotates around the pivot points.) I would have liked the flexibility to NOT have the frame pre-drilled, so I could set the width better in the front.

It's a slow and sometimes frustrating process. Read and re-read all other posts here on VAF on this subject and go slow. I know if I build another canopy, it will come out quite a bit better because of all the gotchas that you didn't know a week or a month ago when you did some op.

Keep at it.

Oh, and you'll absolutely want to make a set of canopy stops, similar to Bruce's below. My canopy shifted 3/32 ~ 1/8 of an inch forward when the struts went on.

http://www.europa.com/~swayze/RV-7A/Finishing/20120225.html

Now is the time to get that center splice correct so the picture above is corrected. You should adjust so there is NO deflection of that 702 skin when closed. This is the first thing to get right on this frame. jut put a straight edge across the skins and look for the gap. Do what ever you have to do to get that right before moving on. Replace the splice, or bend it - - what ever, but get it right.

Canopy stops: I installed them - made no difference. Once the front skin is riveted on, installation of the struts will not change the gap more than a couple of thousands. Although YMMV, mine did not move with strut installation.

I just a short time ago I riveted the front skin on mine, everything was perfect with clecos. Then after riveting it was - NOT. Just me, but I would suggest finishing the canopy after you have that skin riveted if at all possible. I think the radius was/is altered in the riveting process. I believe the rivet set bent the tabs on the sub panel radial to the skin curve and altered the absolute diameter of that area. The first side was perfect, the second radius was reduced and a stagger mismatch of the skins in appeared. Wings/scoops are the normal description of these. I have nothing but theory as avoiding them. Doing the 771 first will leave many options for getting that right in the end.

In the process, use all the clecos in the forward skin. I used cleo clamps on the longeron to get it to fit. Use spacers on the canopy frame to ensure the sides are parallel to the longeron. Use the same spacers when attaching the side rails. This ensures the 771/702 gap at the fuse does not change. Bend the frame as needed until perfect for forward gaps and stagger between 702/771 and along the fuse side skin. Make the rails fit that. (Tricky)
 
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Bill and Bill,
Cannot go to my garage right now but thank you both for very informative replies. I need to chew on this a bit. The canopy frame splice plate is riveted, I need to check that gap with a straight edge, but it seems I cannot move on unless that is opening now, as it won't miraculously operate once the canopy is further along/completed. And as the alignment changes each time they are assembled or disassembled, or riveted, ugh.
Thank you,
I'll get back to this in a day or so.
kelly
 
another tip for temporary fitting

McMaster-Carr sells some cheap, all-aluminum, 3/32 pop rivets ... in boxes of 100 to 250. They're great as temporary holders during construction. They pull things up tighter than clecos and don't get in the way of canopy frame opening/closing during the fitting process. They come out with just barely a touch of a #30 or #40 drill. I found them hugely helpful, as they gave me a good idea what things would look like after final riveting.
 
Canopy stops a necessity? Is there data?

I would suggest you install canopy struts asap as they will usually change the fittings

Jerry, I left off the struts until all was riveted. Canopy installed. I installed the complete canopy, measured the gaps then, without moving anything, climbed inside and installed the struts. There was no movement, no measurable change in the gaps. I measured the compression force on each strut, it was around 22.5# each.

I have heard a lot about the necessity of canopy stops, and I installed them, but wonder if this conclusion was reached before (or after) all was riveted?
 
Jerry, I left off the struts until all was riveted. Canopy installed. I installed the complete canopy, measured the gaps then, without moving anything, climbed inside and installed the struts. There was no movement, no measurable change in the gaps. I measured the compression force on each strut, it was around 22.5# each.

I have heard a lot about the necessity of canopy stops, and I installed them, but wonder if this conclusion was reached before (or after) all was riveted?
I second the call for the installation of the canopy struts. It had a huge effect on mine. It is very frustrating that the setup changes each time you put take it off and put it back on. Also using the pop rivet or some thing that can hold things together very tightly is a great suggestion as well. It is amazing how much things change each time.
 
I second the call for the installation of the canopy struts. It had a huge effect on mine. It is very frustrating that the setup changes each time you put take it off and put it back on. Also using the pop rivet or some thing that can hold things together very tightly is a great suggestion as well. It is amazing how much things change each time.

This is totally opposite my experience. The struts should NOT be installed until the canopy is complete with the plexi fastened and epoxied. The front skin f771 should be completely riveted.

Then, my strut installation resulted in NO dimension change. Not forward gap, not side stagger, nothing.

So - again why, specifically, are the canopy stops needed?
 
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Tip-up soon to be started

I am just about to start the canopy work myself, so this thread is perfectly timed.
I have some additional questions:

1. Which ones if the pop rivets is most suitable, there is a bunch of them at the McMasterCarar site

2. How much of the subpanel and ribs is it recommended to rivet for best fit results.

3. I have the fuselage still on rotisserie. Would the canopy fitting be ok or would it be better to have it on a more stable support system.
 
Someone mentioned that the skin(s) move when you rivet. They do. Part of the reason *can* be that the 'ears' get bent farther down, but another reason is that the dimples rarely nest perfectly in 'dry' assembly, especially in highly curved areas like that. If you're really anal about it but don't want to rivet now (for good reason), You can nest the dimples by putting a female dimple die in a bucking bar (scrap steel works fine for this) and the male in a die holder in the gun. A very light shot will nest/align the dimples, & then the cleco can more easily hold the stack without gaps. Really time consuming to do, though.

You'll eventually need to tip the frame more than a fraction of an inch, which means that clecos can't stay in that line where it meets the forward skin. It will likely hit even if you cleco from inside. I used some tiny flat head metric screws/nuts (almost identical diameter to -3 rivets) across the top in that area to secure the skin to the structure. They will pull the skin down better than clecos, too.

Charlie
 
tip up blues

i built my tipup per planes i never installed the nitrogen assist cyls till it was all done and riveted and all. it opened and fit perfectly first time. those cyls bend and twist things. my two cents worth.
Fred
 
I am just about to start the canopy work myself, so this thread is perfectly timed.
I have some additional questions:

1. Which ones if the pop rivets is most suitable, there is a bunch of them at the McMasterCarar site.

I think the only ones that are 3/32 and all-aluminum are the McMaster-Carr 97447A105, at $9 for a box of 250. I'll double check that next time I'm at my hangar. (maybe today, if we finally get decent flying weather! :))
 
All aluminum pop rivets

Got to the hangar today ... there is no McMaster-Carr number on the box; the only reference number is the one by Pop, the mfgr .... AD32ABS201, all aluminum pop rivets, domed, .032 - .125 grip range. I think they must be the McMaster number i mentioned earlier.... it's the only ones that match the description.
 
Thanks.
They are more or less the same, just tiny differences. Grainger has them as well (over priced). Consider their temporary use, they are perfectly fit for purpose.
 
So indeed, based on this image, the F-771 and the F-702 are not flush right in the center, they once were, or so I thought.

5.jpg


Anyway, with the center splice on the frame (WD-716) in place (riveted) that leaves shims, to be certain 702 comes up and is flush with the 771? Then rivet the 771 with the aluminum rivets before wrestling the sides of the F-702 to be flush with the fuselage?
seem reasonable?
 
So indeed, based on this image, the F-771 and the F-702 are not flush right in the center, they once were, or so I thought.

Anyway, with the center splice on the frame (WD-716) in place (riveted) that leaves shims, to be certain 702 comes up and is flush with the 771? Then rivet the 771 with the aluminum rivets before wrestling the sides of the F-702 to be flush with the fuselage?
seem reasonable?

I had to use these. You are at the stage now to get that splice and the pivots right. The errors will accumulate in this frame.

AfSUFJ_FZ3m49ZI7eh-KP39Iah0LHbid_7JR5ObYnW-hLK_Fwh8w3GtX7i74eNg0x_yFMJ2bz0WEgt5ywibOOcWrKX8ZuKewLJQR216Oq1h_rQ53phdOQfLVv0du234H66_alQdalkU5K9q4hJm5K20S-aKa5RaZ3fic1LogvKrh5eama57ec4CGf67jfsh_Cz7mrj3A8rdThCCG97LfDzlKKPFG2hrojYZ4GBvtmho96xTs62f8hT67y8VrdgdnkKrFuhOVKjZuLADQr1MhaesdIzxFexyT-d9ydQidwSOQ_PXWaQ402tgpEI_Q0uL4RzA_toHHnLPiH-XocSszII8hVZxeDMhLKO8No1LrG5k7lcLg9hurjLR2M9XOxCfAl6Te_abZTpNf3Ub7DNKYBGXsTcezOl25_7xaVsnVbamI_LY17HZTnkbxJnh1p1vhTzzGIwVnYxCatcW40QyHoDNLjaVlWqrC_noErmrZYp74FJOZZ1Zyo3-YlD8QhS8TUxFzrArLPf_kGwNCKZhdKK1dTRr2GG_bckj-5OZtIv9A6a-u0k06wPupqwLygHG3gKrVxsKXdLeTZhC0TlyB-vsiyflbq8qjeWsfLA5LTBlAk1bSjqDurXqyohGJZIL5Eg-kWP3e0ce1x3SkP0OVzwKIe9cfI8DjsrgCZyF-6w=w400-no
 
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I had to shim up the center of the fwd canopy skin to eliminate the height discrepancy shown in the above pic. IIRC, I shimmed at least .030 in the center, and then tapered the shim off to the sides. There were no shims in the curved sides; they stuck up plenty high as it was. :mad: All shimming was in the center area of the fwd canopy skin.
 
Bill this is feeling a bit like magic to get the fit correct when each time parts are removed and put back causes a fit change. When you made these bushings, were you correcting the 771 and 702 "level" and did you just take the difference and make that the offset?
 
Bill this is feeling a bit like magic to get the fit correct when each time parts are removed and put back causes a fit change. When you made these bushings, were you correcting the 771 and 702 "level" and did you just take the difference and make that the offset?

My frame and plexi fasteners were all complete sans glassing the front. No struts. It fit "perfect" - meaning all the gaps and offset (I call stagger) were even, small or in the case of stagger none. Every rivet hole was dimpled and had clecos, The side rails had cleo clamps and 4-40 screws to hold them in tight. Then, I riveted the 771 on. No so good.

So - my right side raised the frame .010, the left set it back by .020. They don't need to be only X or Y. Any combination works too, according to the need. I still have a scoop on the left side, that also appeared after riveting. Don't know how to handle that yet. So - ensuring that the sub panel curvature remains fixed during the whole process, including final riveting, needs some definitive action. Its a definite risk and all the adjustment options are frozen, except for these bushings. This is why I said one should consider doing the canopy frame after the front skin is riveted. A no win option IMO. Maybe some .063 reinforcement under the curve on the sub panel could maintain the curvature. Purely a guess.
 
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If the offset issue really is due to driving the tabs down while riveting, there's at least some chance you can move them back out. I can try to describe the technique, but first, look at the skin to see if there's any distortion around the rivet lines. If the tabs got bent down, you should see visible distortion around the rivets along that rivet line.

Charlie
 
Do a search and find the canopy stops. Once I installed these the skins stopped moving. It is an easy mod...

Smilin' Jack
 
More please . .

If the offset issue really is due to driving the tabs down while riveting, there's at least some chance you can move them back out. I can try to describe the technique, but first, look at the skin to see if there's any distortion around the rivet lines. If the tabs got bent down, you should see visible distortion around the rivets along that rivet line.

Charlie

OK, this is my last issue and not sure it can be undone without deriveting the 771 skin, It is not buckled as I can tell and without stretching the 771 or remaining a custom one, not sure how to effect this change. the hing point is on, where it meets the fuse is on. It is like the radius is just reduced by .030 in the middle.

So, if you have done this with success, please elaborate.
 
Bill,

If you can lay a flexible ruler along the rivet line & not see any dips, it's likely that the skin just wasn't pulled down tight when you set up your relative heights of the skin & canopy skin. That might make it tough to compensate now, since the sking would be where it's supposed to be.

Having said that...Here's the general technique I was taught to move a 'depressed' bulkhead tab out so there's no dip in the skin over that tab's rivet(s).

I use a hardwood (maple worked for me) 'punch' that's ~3/4" on a side by 5-6" long. I taper one end into an offset cone so the point is near one side. Blunt the cone's point to ~1/2" dia, and drill a hole in the end slightly larger than the shop head of the rivets you're going to work around. Make a similar tool with a wedge, like a very blunt chisel with rounded corners. Grab a hammer or mallet with a decent mass; something about the weight of a standard carpenter's hammer works for me.

Get inside the fuselage, & have a helper ready outside, with a bucking bar with a relatively large flat area, or another piece of hardwood.

Carefully coordinate where the low spots are with your helper. Have the helper place his 'tool' over an offending rivet/tab location, tangent to the skin over the rivet itself. Center the cone'd tool over the shop head, & bump it *gently* with the hammer. Only do this with resistance on the skin over the rivet. Check to see if/how much you've moved it out, and repeat if needed. Check after every bump.

To move the entire tab, use the 'chisel' tool. Hold the 'blade' parallel to the bulkhead, and work a line on the tab between the bulkhead and the rivet line. Idea is to shift the tab's bend radius closer to the rivet. The bulkhead will move a microscopic amount toward the rivet, but it will get noticeably longer, moving the tab 'out'.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Might not do you any good at all, but if you think your tabs got bent down while riveting, it *might* help.

Hope it's of some use,

Charlie
 
ahhh hammer and dolly

I was just thinking that today. A shaped internal forming tool. There is one tab that is depressed, Maybe a port-a-power, but where to put the other end??

When fitted the skin was pulled down with ratchet straps, big ones, it was very tight. When the skin was put on, it just went on too easy to what I was expecting. Maybe a custom skin will have to be fitted. I am determined it will get done right.

Edit: I have now made an anvil tool with an 8" radius, polished, and radiuses edges. It is welded to an old air hammer tool that will fit nicely in the rivet gun. I will post results and photos when done (if it works), or slink away and hide, never to post again.

Or it is micro time.:(
 
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After all my shimming of my canopy frame I thought I had mine perfect. However after riveting everything I still had areas that now ended up high. I used the edge roller and brought it down a little at a time until it looked ok. the plane is almost done being painted and hopefully it wont look bad.
 
Hi Kelly,
I built an RV7A tip up in Ogden and had many of the same problems you've described. I believe you were recently up in Ogden looking at Kent's RV6 tip up? I ended up re-riveting my splice to raise the center. I also increased the gap between sheets by trimming the 701 some. The other thing I did that helped a lot was to feather the rear top edge (only did this in the top "flat" area) of the 771 so it went almost to a knife edge on the bottom side. That seemed to keep the edges from catching on each other. I also noticed that the force applied by the struts moved things around quit a bit with things just clecoed together. That also came into play when trimming the final fit of the rear edge of the plexiglass (mainly I found that if the 771 wasn't firmly clecoed in place the hinge area moved due to the strut forces, thus changing the rear location of the plexi). I'll be in town till Wednesday if you want to come see mine.

Brad Smith
 
Hammering the 771/subpanel - NO JOY

No joy with hammering up the F771 at the sub panel. I measured the stagger each inch. Then a tool was made with a piece of 1/2"X2" bar stock. The end was rounded to 8" radius and an old air chisel blade welded on the end. It was at and angle to allow the anvil to fit flat against the sub panel. A mask of 6061 was made to cover the backside of the set rivets and spread the load.

It did not do a little, it did nothing. I pushed the air pressure up to 140 psi with a 2X rivet gun. I could have used my Snap-on muffler gun, but since nothing was moving at all, a different approach will be pursued. I will review it with Vans before posting.
 
Uhhh, I'm glad you didn't damage anything.

Hard to know for sure how you were doing this, without actually seeing it. But it sounds like you were using a steel tool, and you were driving it with a rivet gun. It also sounds like the tool was placed against the bulkhead, which sounds like it may have been driving against the bend of the flange (in the 'corner') instead of out at the dimple.

Is that correct?
 
Uhhh, I'm glad you didn't damage anything.

Hard to know for sure how you were doing this, without actually seeing it. But it sounds like you were using a steel tool, and you were driving it with a rivet gun. It also sounds like the tool was placed against the bulkhead, which sounds like it may have been driving against the bend of the flange (in the 'corner') instead of out at the dimple.

Is that correct?

Nope - radially outward along the axis of the rivets. The rivets were bridged with a countersunk piece of .063 thick 6061. The bridge got pounded pretty good, only the small one was used. It nicely conformed to the hammer head. Trust me, if it was going to move, it would have. The plastic shoe was placed against the sub panel.

CJNLuMQv1UzbgSx7xrWrxywVfpgjFgdteZOHDpSoOjUYj-8ruZNQu14SXzRITsXnv-1OBcY8hZUvGq1LZ21mTZkBnEdYftwD_bHPlsMGdSfWlmJodO_9HJkbrZLEeVa0O_keHK3red46Z27ZoTcK6HTS45lruKMFndYe6JIJOspFxyp6RiryYLUZsuDZ14MznS7BcaP5lEukYalrObBJ-Bqm878c2QwG-yaktGF3WOd-gHPyXV1enoDDm6HKqd48SZDlaDi3nc3ANMhf2wohTa6wMpiUdWanFMsLfGG3B6Mf5Q3T8U3bo4Af3o2au6kthY17YtoE75E0KJyP2XRKmy30b5mxkTUAP-OL3voR0XfwwCrRa6ALlLVYr-zmybhnK79wYEumsi7BTnCCJSALEpodKUFo9130w7fL1VrIod3mASI-rYUU5Q_qHSZZrbhljQsr9ktpNjwIlnneo8DBOuN_aY1kasDgyPorgC1GJG3TvpZa-2sKExAzu6meVUVGHyoIgfhbLY74TBl2VAwNefG7rD8DrkG4ruNDrsMquJBs60klSwWx89CR8KJekhGs6sOv84m2mSFI4xu0KpnsISJ5YncJjCbdSwIjwaxq8EaTrCZQGjkr=w500-no
 
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OK. I have been messing around with the fit and am ready to start the drilling for the canopy frame. I plan to use temporary pop rivets to keep things in reasonable position.

1: C-614, basically committing to the width
2: WD-716G attach tabs
3: The hinge

The question is how much of the skin should be (temporary) riveted and should the sub-structure (sub-panel and ribs) be fully riveted to get the best results.
 
OK. I have been messing around with the fit and am ready to start the drilling for the canopy frame. I plan to use temporary pop rivets to keep things in reasonable position.

1: C-614, basically committing to the width
2: WD-716G attach tabs
3: The hinge

The question is how much of the skin should be (temporary) riveted and should the sub-structure (sub-panel and ribs) be fully riveted to get the best results.
I think the subframe should be riveted in as it is beginning of the canopy fit. If the F771 is mounted, and perfectly aligned at the longerons, then clamped with cleo clamps or 4-40 screws for the -4 rivets. I did this and the stagger still appeared on mine. Even with all this there are no guarantees.

I still think (at this time) that the only for sure way to properly fit and complete the canopy frame is after the 771 is riveted on. Alternatively, if the canopy frame is completed and fits perfectly with the plexi installed, then make a precise template of the front contour matched to the inside of the skin. Then, as the 771 is installed use that to match the contour. Make sure it has a good immovable datum to position it relative tot he longhorns. That would at least allow the 771 assembly to be adjusted or replaced in the installation stage.

Good luck - it will take a few years to play out.
 
This just got worse

As I was moving along with the canopy frame drilling, I was marking the 1/4 hinge location with a marker on the tab. Good news: I got very consistent location. Bad news, it was always too close to the edge and also different forklift and right.

I was 99% sure I needed to add some material (by welding), so I took the risk of use a bushing (1/4 outer, #40 inner) to mark the location. As expected, the edge distance on the left is almost 0:
HnOANr9OykszADYNrEh3eZFUQlYDp87kqzNhSE4BOZ5FKVNh3E5kwbWM3ErCbQcWKcwfmIeohbWNclEYxb56W16WADyJpr4WJXfBZWzTXK1refvcIv7TMQZWWbWKChv5GfIEh9GxNNs8VWZPczbJn4s4dpaKGNnHglWL_dzAu1KkxrncMkdF8P3poyXtKphhik59i24k3Zu933Cz7UsMh-Fm-wP5ZZdVPS4OOQ4Isp-tR7zLgsZNe8n-xTXsxaJOaKa9bGNpM6P1lSJtbjciOKvH_oF79fvW0X1k0Aeww2mP2TeX8Xol4ESqY2Vo5pYuNnM3GiWFSf8WwayW7vuQzRQ4rHEpHAvhwagqmSLckTsPtaoFk4DeBE39O_dlSf8FDkFlazjgkWR66TvjcrTfK3loNeU4R0TXcac9r3Sdj_IFZjIHuMAtHuftyvrjfyo5H-kKVd2OxOTrlldN1zlI9l4gYUeg4fHkQ1L7l0RJ-jtUkZ7jO9aL-XgQZfyLflWXDUT0RvZkFwcM6RbsZeXO3q58NZi_l8ZgRBADMx8-0CAMod5KfBlYCifNvfXsyOrtJBvFbGGTh9GVTCj5QpTC6DgMWIOwk0XoIXcDlsiLZXp4RBo82SotMKH83cJLrWaR_z9aRXelMa3C-I3mrHanKJcJxZwrhvm5Zqk=w800-h600-no


Right side is OK, not centered but similar to other builders:
8Z08P9CtgAfrWUX85AGu5_jPOhon6gFzOB72LLB40P4C1D22MebRLnCc17hIFciUXejtw7JZ3hJoeFr45Qezn57Npnx7sh7vlrZ8X14oLBOtC7rGRr-lfT4_3a62hdYqWIg8ISJTsiPGCz35ALpk7F3wQxhrUe1g2ahWnURWExqewU4dDYR0XTWvvz759cLXTYgiXuZBTUsL71drIqpKENOfIjlluzfm89xKpMDW7jtgxPf0fQZ47QrlG_V7kCNE8M21ODhtKhkKfmgdeiYGCmFaXJXUF-8-u9VXQIkJJqAMwopPkO6VjzBWQlb2KK9qiS2rQ7Nyt67kXqJMn5WLDJnu8Hn56uP5KVNKffvVF_rfG5OzkjVQo-3CiHzrUB9CAb1CudJzyJ_GQL0Z-UPe3mAjWNgl_rwo9l5NCGI_XC9J3M5Ce7i1_fxeIgvoB6arVSJLjJj4yoADDYuoqgFBesIVQ-9j-9amY8iG1hJ4pWA2LbfOLnP05YLgS5ohVR-XDgjxCVN5s04OLzq9jdcZOww7qBC3aci0FvBybGEpwEVgK8-PP5Ubf--VvtVQ1STiK4OZFyUoFWYm8Dl4Q3FekDm0yoiM6arFKzrPkJZgW7SbUIda5jMaVIsDDJ5cfqiO-VkNZPW_LaiLGqfUgMS_uScpbFnrbs1HgHs=w800-h600-no


My options are:

1. Welding on more material - It has been done before
2. New frame and skin - But the hole might end up and the same location
3. New ribs and hinge block - basically move the hole in the sub-panel structure

I will see what vans says, but what do you guys think ?
 
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Sorry, No pictures for me. Make sure the permissions is "all who have the link"

I recently had everything set correctly, posted and got the dreaded gray (-). Trashed the links, logged off and then back into google photo, reposted the same way and it worked. I had to use my wife iPad as a guest viewer to go back and forth to find the issue. I could see them but not others.

I wonder why the holes are so far back? Are all the clecos in the F771 skin? Every single one?
 
I had all clecos in and sub structure partially riveted. I know things normally moves around and I actually re-marked several time and always ended at the same spot.

I have seen some builders end up with spacers on the frame ribs, that would move the tabs further back, but not by 3/16 which is what I need.

I seen other builders with the exact same problem, also on left side. They ended up welding the holes up and weld on extra material. That is what the builders are told by vans as well. It's probably what I end up doing, as the frame is $300 + shipping:eek:.

It is strange that some small improvements is not done. It would be simple to have the rear tube actually follow the skin and maybe even have oversized tabs that could be reduced, leaving 3/16 around the bushing.
 
I had all clecos in and sub structure partially riveted. I know things normally moves around and I actually re-marked several time and always ended at the same spot.

I have seen some builders end up with spacers on the frame ribs, that would move the tabs further back, but not by 3/16 which is what I need.

I seen other builders with the exact same problem, also on left side. They ended up welding the holes up and weld on extra material. That is what the builders are told by vans as well. It's probably what I end up doing, as the frame is $300 + shipping:eek:.

It is strange that some small improvements is not done. It would be simple to have the rear tube actually follow the skin and maybe even have oversized tabs that could be reduced, leaving 3/16 around the bushing.

Actually, I am having a hard time remembering, but do faintly recall putting one in the vice and bending the end with a hammer (hand sledge?). Not sure if I dreamed about it or did it. Sorry. I had a lot of designing dreams about this part of the project. :eek:

Scott (rvbuilder2002) has welded these before.
 
Woops

I'll be in town till Wednesday if you want to come see mine.

Brad Smith[/QUOTE]

HyBrad,
Somehow I missed this post of yours, sent a pmail yesterday, would love to fake you up on this offer.
kelly
 
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