cardinal285
Member
Flying an E-LSA RV-12 and looking for some input on insurance companies. Any thoughts pro or con on different companies? Any companies writing a "Smooth" policy ? What seems to be available policy limits ?
Van's Air Force
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Insurance Input
- Thread starter cardinal285
- Start date
Phantom30
Well Known Member
Please explain "smooth" policy?
"smooth" or CSL (combined single limit) means a liability policy with one overall limit (e.g., $1,000,00) and no sublimits (very common sublimit is no more than $100,000 per passenger). This is a huge increase in coverage, as statistically most of your risk is due to passengers.
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
Gary,
Call EAA. They will set you up with an insurance company that works with them. Mine runs about $1000/year for $1M coverage. It's comparable to what I pay for my Cherokee 180.
Rich
Call EAA. They will set you up with an insurance company that works with them. Mine runs about $1000/year for $1M coverage. It's comparable to what I pay for my Cherokee 180.
Rich
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
Bob,
Frankly I don't remember, but I think it was a total without per passenger limit. The advice was meant to be: call EAA (or AOPA) for the best deal.
Rich
Frankly I don't remember, but I think it was a total without per passenger limit. The advice was meant to be: call EAA (or AOPA) for the best deal.
Rich
Phantom30
Well Known Member
Thanks for the heads up!!!
You know, it costs nO thing to call one of the insurance brokers that regularly participate here and ask questions from someone who actually knows the answer and doesn't have just one policy/company to sell. That's the best thing about brokers - they shop the entire market - and boy, having seen the wide range of quotes that come back from various insurance underwriters who look at the same application, I'd never go to directly to only one underwriter!
WingedFrog
Well Known Member
Exactly what I am doing. Every year a couple of months before renewal the broker sends me a form to update my situation and when they receive it back they go shopping. FWIW my broker is Sutton James (easy to Google).
I totally agree.
I recently worked with Shanna at Gallagher Aviation on a policy for my personal RV-6A.
She supplied quotes from seven different underwriters with the highest being $250 more than the lowest (all had pretty much the same coverage and pilot experience requirements).
I ended up going with Old Republic (which was one of her recommendations).
BTW, You can't go wrong with Jenny, Shanna, and the rest of the gang at Gallagher Aviation (formally NationAir)
+1 for the folks at Arthur J Gallagher.
They arranged insurance for my project and just this week got my -12 insured for flight.
Much less hassle and expense than I'd expected based on past threads here. There are many more -12's flying now so part of it may be that they have more experience with the airplane and the folks who fly them.
They arranged insurance for my project and just this week got my -12 insured for flight.
Much less hassle and expense than I'd expected based on past threads here. There are many more -12's flying now so part of it may be that they have more experience with the airplane and the folks who fly them.
This is interesting - I just got my renewal quote from Gallagher, they said AIG was the best deal at $1383. I also contacted EAA and they found me Old Republic for $928 for the same coverage. Does Gallagher no longer deal with Old Republic I wonder?
You should be aware of the way this business works. Years ago, the actual insurance companies got tired of paying the cost to send multiple quotes to multiple agencies, for the same airplane. (Plus it was too embarrassing if they accidentally sent different quotes!). So if you asked EAA to get a quote for you, and they did, it is likely that a subsequent request from Gallagher would be ignored by Old Republic. It is also possible that Gallagher declined to ask Old Republic for other reasons. Not saying this is the case here, but some years ago Company X was offering low quotes. I asked Jenny why they didn't quote X, and she told me, that in their opinion, company X did not have the financial resources necessary to assure that they could actually make payments in case of a loss. A year later, company X was no longer in the business. Not saying this is the case here; but you should call Jenny and find out.
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Insurance
No luck with EAA, 30% higher than others, very helpful and informative on the phone. Gallagher will never get my business again. Horrible service. I think just one individual. Attitude was that I am here to serve them and I will do as they demand!!! The new parent organization is also totally incompetent. My EAB is not an RV.
No luck with EAA, 30% higher than others, very helpful and informative on the phone. Gallagher will never get my business again. Horrible service. I think just one individual. Attitude was that I am here to serve them and I will do as they demand!!! The new parent organization is also totally incompetent. My EAB is not an RV.
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
Having just acquired my Airworthiness Certificate, I went shopping. To tell the truth this whole discussion just leaves me confused, brokers, salespersons, how is one supposed to shop really. I just requested a quote from Falcon, darned if I know if they are sales persons or brokers or what. In past aircraft, nobody ever gave me a choice of quotes and companies. How am I supposed to know that the quote I am given is not the best for me, but the best for the commission of the sales person?
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
This shows what I was trying to say. It sure appears you must get quotes from many companies to be sure you get the best deal. I would bet that the commission for the $1383 policy was nicer for them than the commission on the $928 policy, so they trashed it. It appears that most pilots get one quote and feel they are special and have the best insurance. It does not appear to be a totally honest profession.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Skysmith emails me several quotes and allows me to make a choice. There are additional carriers they contact but some don't write policies for experimental. The best rate I've had for the past few years has written by Global.
The best approach is to use the services of an agent you trust and that has a good track record with our aircraft. A good agent can explain the process for your so you don't feel like you are in the dark. It is also important to communicate to the agent the coverages you want/need so an appropriate request for quotes can be made.
Bottom line: this requires the pilot to be knowledgeable about aviation policies. Yes, it requires some homework, but so does selecting avionics and engine. Consider insurance to just be another piece of equipment you select for your airplane.
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Like Sam says, It's important to communicate with your broker.
When I first went with SkySmith, they pointed out some "fine print" I hadn't noticed in my previous policy which exempted family member coverage for liability. This was a real wake-up call to me because I usually read my policy very closely, yet this one had slipped my eye.
When I first went with SkySmith, they pointed out some "fine print" I hadn't noticed in my previous policy which exempted family member coverage for liability. This was a real wake-up call to me because I usually read my policy very closely, yet this one had slipped my eye.
That is why using a reputable broker that deals with a bunch of different under writers can be helpful. They can request quotes from everyone that they deal with and then let you pick the one you want.
My last quote from Shawna at Gallager included quotes from 7 different under-writers (all with nearly identical coverage and requirements). I was able to pick the one I wanted.
Keep in mind that very few aviation insurance companies are selling their own insurance products directly to the customer. Most sell through brokers.
Once a broker has gotten a quote for you from any particular under-writer, that company will not issue a quote of a different $ value to any other broker.
The best thing to do is use a broker that works with a lot of under-writers and have them provide quotes from a bunch at one time.
I saw one post from someone that was not happy with their service (didn't say why)... the forums are full of posts from other people that were (me included).
Shawna and Jenny have both posted in the forums here occasionally.
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
Actually two Scott, there was this one as well: " I just got my renewal quote from Gallagher, they said AIG was the best deal at $1383. I also contacted EAA and they found me Old Republic for $928 for the same coverage. Does Gallagher no longer deal with Old Republic I wonder?"
I agree, we should not condemn a company based on heresay. The Gallagher website shows whom they deal with, and Old Republic is not among them.
I am just trying to sort it out. There are those here that emphasize DO NOT go to multiple brokers, yet apparently if you don't, then you only get partial quotes only from the companies that your broker deals with. How do we win?
I agree, we should not condemn a company based on heresay. The Gallagher website shows whom they deal with, and Old Republic is not among them.
I am just trying to sort it out. There are those here that emphasize DO NOT go to multiple brokers, yet apparently if you don't, then you only get partial quotes only from the companies that your broker deals with. How do we win?
I have and continue to use them; I think they are one of the MORE reputable ones. In the past I had some special circumstances, and they were helpful in sorting out the possible solutions. They have always presented me with multiple options, tailored to what they understood to be my requirements. And they have told me explicitly why they did not recommend one particular insurance company (a recommendation that proved to be correct).
When you go to a broker, you are buying their service. This is often a personal, "feels right" sort of thing. It is hard to know if they will or will not work hard for you. Not unlike engaging a real estate broker, or, for that matter, a surgeon. You rely a lot on others' opinions.
Here's what you do:
1. Call AVEMCO and ask for a quote. Avemco is (I think) the only "direct writing" company (they do not use independent brokers). In the past they have always offered me less coverage for more money, but they did send me a nice baseball cap.
2. Pick ONE broker. Since you have no other references, pick one that has been recommended here on VAF. Talk with them. Tell them the kind of coverages (liability, hull) you desire. If you don't understand the language (and I venture a guess that many pilots do not, e.g. "Open Pilot Clause") ask them a question to clarify. They will ask about your experience, ratings, etc. Do not lie. Expect them to come back in a week or two with multiple quotes, and a recommendation.
Edit: I see your question above. If you go to multiple brokers, the insurance companies will only give a quote to the first broker that approaches them on your behalf. The others will be shut out. Naturally, they will be unhappy to have prepared the paperwork for the quote, only to be told by the company that you've been issued a quote thru a different broker. Normally, independent brokers represent all companies (except AVEMCO). Someone needs to ask Jenny why they don't represent Old Republic, if that is indeed the case. They may have a reason that they don't care to make too public. OR, perhaps this individual had EAA approach Old Republic before Gallagher did. As I noted above, in such a case Old Republic won't quote you to a second broker.
Edit #2: I went back and looked at my quote from Gallagher in July 2016. At that time, they DID quote Old Republic, so I suspect the individual who posted "shut them out" by requesting EAA to get him a quote (before Gallagher asked for one).
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I don't read that as being someone unhappy with their service, only unhappy with the price of the quote.
That could be for many different reasons. Everything from a mistake being made in the info that was provided, to???
My current policy is through Old Republic. The quote was very competitive last year. I guess I will have to see if the quote increases this summer (or whether they are still working quotes from them)....
az_gila
Well Known Member
Is the Old Republic bit a recent change?
I got a Gallagher RV-6A quote on 10-26-16 that compared both AIG and Old Republic. Old Republic was cheaper with better coverage.
Please read my "edit #2", above. It appears to me that this individual approached two brokers, Gallagher and EAA. If EAA asked Old Republic for a quote before Gallagher did, then Old Republic most likely would have declined to quote to any other brokers, including Gallagher.
Quote
That is my understanding of the way this works except that after a certain period of time you can get new quotes.
Gallagher
I will post a couple of specifics about Gallagher: I found one person there that I would never deal with again. Maybe my bad luck or luck of the draw.
Offered AOPA discount and then withdrew the offer saying "its too late we'll get it for you next year". When I threatened to cancel the policy this person got the discount and then complained about how much extra work this was. My first policy was for builders risk. When I changed to flight coverage the use of aircraft was still listed "builders risk". Based airport identifier was incorrect. Big deal to fix this.
The final straw was second year flight coverage. Five days after the policy went into effect the airplane was grounded for a broken exhaust that I knew was going to take several months to get sorted out. I requested change to ground coverage only and this took FIVE WEEKS to get a response.
When this was in process the Chicago office sent me a check for substantially more than the down payment that I had paid while the finance company was demanding additional payment . The Gallagher KC office was telling me "just make one more payment and we'll get this all straightened out and issue a refund". At that point I canceled, never got a refund. The finance company is still billing me for a "cancellation fee". By the way I did not cash the check from Chicago office. TOTAL INCOMPETENCE.
Past quotes for Skysmith and EAA were not competitive prices. The majority of these brokers are making HUGE profits
I now am finalizing insurance with a broker that has so far been very professional and the price is only about $50 more than Gallagher.
I feel that all my problems with Gallagher are LIKELY caused by one arrogant person who wants to do a minimal amount of work. The takeover by the Gallagher parent company is a huge negative for me.
I will post a couple of specifics about Gallagher: I found one person there that I would never deal with again. Maybe my bad luck or luck of the draw.
Offered AOPA discount and then withdrew the offer saying "its too late we'll get it for you next year". When I threatened to cancel the policy this person got the discount and then complained about how much extra work this was. My first policy was for builders risk. When I changed to flight coverage the use of aircraft was still listed "builders risk". Based airport identifier was incorrect. Big deal to fix this.
The final straw was second year flight coverage. Five days after the policy went into effect the airplane was grounded for a broken exhaust that I knew was going to take several months to get sorted out. I requested change to ground coverage only and this took FIVE WEEKS to get a response.
When this was in process the Chicago office sent me a check for substantially more than the down payment that I had paid while the finance company was demanding additional payment . The Gallagher KC office was telling me "just make one more payment and we'll get this all straightened out and issue a refund". At that point I canceled, never got a refund. The finance company is still billing me for a "cancellation fee". By the way I did not cash the check from Chicago office. TOTAL INCOMPETENCE.
Past quotes for Skysmith and EAA were not competitive prices. The majority of these brokers are making HUGE profits
I now am finalizing insurance with a broker that has so far been very professional and the price is only about $50 more than Gallagher.
I feel that all my problems with Gallagher are LIKELY caused by one arrogant person who wants to do a minimal amount of work. The takeover by the Gallagher parent company is a huge negative for me.
Well, it sounds like somebody certain dropped the ball here. I'm sorry for all your trouble. But your post brings up another point, which I will mention for others' benefit:
Aviation Insurance is almost always written on an "earned premium" schedule, unlike, say, car insurance. The argument is that the company incurred most of its costs up front, and if you cancel, they want to recover those costs. So if you cancel (or make a substantial change) after 5 days, they will not refund 360/365 of the premium - it will be substantially less. If you ask the company they should send you their refund schedule.
Insurance
I have very limited personal experience with hull insurance. My understanding is that it is relatively common to switch back and forth from full hull coverage to ground not in motion during planned periods of aircraft being inactive. An example of this would be owners from the frozen north who winter in the south and leave the airplane in the north.
Regarding the cancellation fee that was not from the broker but from a finance company arranged by the broker. The finance company is stuck somewhere in the dark ages. They are not set up for online payments EXCEPT for an arrangement to pay via Western Union at an additional cost of $15 per payment.
My auto insurance company offers monthly payments no extra charges, in addition if you want to pay the full amount it is only a six month premium.
I have very limited personal experience with hull insurance. My understanding is that it is relatively common to switch back and forth from full hull coverage to ground not in motion during planned periods of aircraft being inactive. An example of this would be owners from the frozen north who winter in the south and leave the airplane in the north.
Regarding the cancellation fee that was not from the broker but from a finance company arranged by the broker. The finance company is stuck somewhere in the dark ages. They are not set up for online payments EXCEPT for an arrangement to pay via Western Union at an additional cost of $15 per payment.
My auto insurance company offers monthly payments no extra charges, in addition if you want to pay the full amount it is only a six month premium.
Shanna Linton
Member
Good Morning All,
Shanna from Gallagher here. While I can't discuss the individual's differences with their quotes from AIG and Old Republic on a public forum (and I was also not the agent on that account), I can give you a little bit of insight on how the aviation insurance industry works.
There are at least 10 insurance companies that will offer quotes on Vans Aircraft. In order to get quotes from those companies you must go through a broker.
The brokers job is to take your information and submit it to all of the different insurance companies, collect the quotes, and recommend the best option for your needs. If there are several companies with similar rates we will put them on a side by side comparison sheet with their policy coverage's. We also provide AM Best ratings for those companies so you can make an informed decision about your purchase.
Always feel free to call or email your broker with questions. That's what we are here for. The more you know, the more confident you'll be in your decision.
At Gallagher we have three girls here that specialize in Vans Aircraft Insurance. That's all we do. We have about 2000 Vans insured in this office. We attended Oshkosh and the Vans Homecoming every year.
Side note, There is one company out there that is a direct writer that brokers cannot get quotes from called Avemco. You have to contact them directly to get their quote.
I hope this helps! If you have questions feel free to call or email me.
Shanna from Gallagher here. While I can't discuss the individual's differences with their quotes from AIG and Old Republic on a public forum (and I was also not the agent on that account), I can give you a little bit of insight on how the aviation insurance industry works.
There are at least 10 insurance companies that will offer quotes on Vans Aircraft. In order to get quotes from those companies you must go through a broker.
The brokers job is to take your information and submit it to all of the different insurance companies, collect the quotes, and recommend the best option for your needs. If there are several companies with similar rates we will put them on a side by side comparison sheet with their policy coverage's. We also provide AM Best ratings for those companies so you can make an informed decision about your purchase.
Always feel free to call or email your broker with questions. That's what we are here for. The more you know, the more confident you'll be in your decision.
At Gallagher we have three girls here that specialize in Vans Aircraft Insurance. That's all we do. We have about 2000 Vans insured in this office. We attended Oshkosh and the Vans Homecoming every year.
Side note, There is one company out there that is a direct writer that brokers cannot get quotes from called Avemco. You have to contact them directly to get their quote.
I hope this helps! If you have questions feel free to call or email me.
Actually, no. I contacted Gallagher first, gave her time to work, and got the quote response back that indicated AIG was the best fit. Only then, after seeing a significant INCREASE in my premium despite logging more than 100 hours in the last 12 months my aircraft with no problems, did I start to look elsewhere. I went to EAA and they immediately responded with Old Republic. My Gallagher rep told me that Old Republic "requested additional information about the airport you are flying from", though I certainly wasn't asked to give any further information, nor did I get the request for additional information from Old Republic through EAA. Now with the information that Old Republic is not represented on their website as one of the underwriters they work with, I have to wonder a bit.
At this point I do not feel that I am being told the truth, or at least the complete truth, by Gallagher and it is certainly obvious that it is in my best interest to shop with another broker.
Shanna - as you mentioned, you were not the individual I was dealing with, I wanted that to be clear. I also did NOT receive any type of comparison sheets or other options to choose from - I got a single companies name, a single price, and no choices. "Just trust me." Apparently the way YOU handle insurance requests is not the way all your agents handle them.
As for the three girls you say you have on staff that specialize in Vans Aircraft - I find that very curious, because the agent I used specifically told me that she does not have much experience with experimentals, in response to my question about why my premium went up substantially from last year. It appears that your in-house communications need some work, as well as your external ones.
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jestes
Active Member
Greg,
I feel like I need to chime in on this thread. The reason Old Republic was not quoted in the first place is they were asking for more information. Once they received it we had the quote and it was given to you. The other quote is lower then the one we got from Old Republic because the information that the other broker entered is missing some major key risk factors so the information given to the carrier isn't correct. We have always worked with Old republic (formerly Phoenix Aviation). Old Republic just got back into quoting Vans aircraft last year, so there rates are low now but we cant guarantee they will stay that way. The agent you are dealing with is one of our Vans specialists that is all she does. What was being referred to as not having much experience with experimental aircraft was Old Republic since they are newly writing them. Please call me if you have any other issues or questions.
Jenny Brower (Estes)
Light Aircraft Manager
Gallagher Aviation
[email protected]
877-648-8267 - Direct
Jenny,
To be fair to all concerned, and in the spirit of full sharing of accurate information, what you have stated is apparently correct. Leah Ringeisen made the statement about Old Republics experience level with experimentals in an ambiguous wording, I took it to mean her personal (or corporate) level of experience and through emailed conversation with her I know better now. I will say that once the issue came to light, Leah has been helpful and has helped clear up some of the questions, but I am still troubled by the statement that Old Republic was asking questions about the quote, but I was not originally informed of such, nor asked for clarifying information - I was simply given the other higher-priced quote without Gallagher making any attempt (that I could see anyway) at achieving a true market for the customer. As the consumer and disburser of funds, I place a higher value on receiving a complete and accurate market picture over receiving a fast partial market glimpse. I feel like you did a dis-service to me by not chasing down the questions Old Republic had first, and/or at least involving me in that process, in the interest of following all possible leads to the end product. That is, after all, the reason we use a broker in the insurance market - to get access to the complete underwriter market to make an informed choice.
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DonFromTX
Well Known Member
I probably screwed my request up based on this thread. I applied to Gallagher and after a few days I had not heard anything and assumed they were not interested or my request did not go thru. I remembered my past experience with Falcon so sent them a request for quote, and have not heard from them yet either! After reading all the fine print, it says it could take a couple of weeks for them to respond!
I still cannot fathom why it takes a couple of weeks to give a quote, when it should be a matter of minutes in my estimation. I am not ready to fly just yet anyway, so the time is far from critical.
I still cannot fathom why it takes a couple of weeks to give a quote, when it should be a matter of minutes in my estimation. I am not ready to fly just yet anyway, so the time is far from critical.
You should get any underwriters willing to write the policy from either Gallagher or Falcon - but you won't get the same underwriter from both of them, according to what Gallagher says.
Interestingly, I have direct experience that says otherwise. After my issues with the increasing premium at AIG came to light, I went to the EAA website and they gave me a quote from Old Republic. Then after this mess went public here, Gallagher ALSO gave me a quote from Old Republic (yes, they are the same price for the same coverage). So while Gallagher openly stated that normally an underwriter will not quote to two different brokers for the same policy, it's obvious in this case that they did exactly that.
Interestingly, I have direct experience that says otherwise. After my issues with the increasing premium at AIG came to light, I went to the EAA website and they gave me a quote from Old Republic. Then after this mess went public here, Gallagher ALSO gave me a quote from Old Republic (yes, they are the same price for the same coverage). So while Gallagher openly stated that normally an underwriter will not quote to two different brokers for the same policy, it's obvious in this case that they did exactly that.
Shanna Linton
Member
Hi Don!
I just looked up your name in our system and could not find you in our database. I would be more than happy to get quotes for you. It generally only takes 24 hours to get responses from all of the underwriters. Do you mind if I contact you via email for more information?
Shanna Linton
Member
Hi Greg!
I just wanted to clarify that some companies are have an open quoting system and other insurance companies are closed quoting. The open quoting companies will provide multiple quotes to multiple brokers unless that company is the current company on the risk. In that case they will only provide a quote to the current broker.
The closed quoting markets will only provide quotes to one broker at a time. Typically the first broker to get the risk submitted.
I am sorry if there was any misunderstanding. I would be happy to go over everything over the phone or email with you if you'd like. We always want to make our clients comfortable and confident in the purchase of a policy.
Feel free to contact me directly. Even if you do not chose Gallagher as your broker this year I would love the opportunity make things right.
Have a wonderful day!
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
Thanks Shanna, please do.
Harvey rv12
Well Known Member
smooth policy
Hello Shanna:
I was recently told by my aviation insurance agent that "smooth" policies were not written for experimental aircraft. Can you confirm ?.
Thank you
Hello Shanna:
I was recently told by my aviation insurance agent that "smooth" policies were not written for experimental aircraft. Can you confirm ?.
Thank you
Shanna Linton
Member
Hi There!
For most experimental aircraft the insurance companies will not offer smooth limits, however the Vans are a different situation. There are currently 2 companies that will offer smooth limits on a Vans Aircraft depending on the pilot criteria. (One of those companies has astronomically high premium the other is quite competitive.)
There are also several companies that will now offer $1,000,000/$200,000 for a very reasonable price.
Gone are the days that Vans owners are limited to $1,000,000/$100,000 liability limits. (Obviously there are other factors that could cause you not to be eligible for the higher limit. i.e. Recent claim, age, pilot hours, etc.)
