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cderk

cderk

Well Known Member
I'm pretty embarrassed about this but for the life of me, I cannot figure out how to drive these rivets. Nothing I have at my disposal can get into this tight location. I've driven at least 8 rivets into these three holes On my vertical stabilizer and each time I have to remove it. Now the holes are a little larger and I'm thinking I need a new inspar rib.

I have a 3x rivet gun and a pneumatic squeezer.




Any suggestions for a newbie who obviously needs to put this down for the day and have a few beers.

Thanks
Charlie
 
You should be able to slightly move the nose rib in order to get the gun into position, especially with a long enough set. An offset rivet set in the gun would also work, and is what I used. Just be sure to practice with it on scrap first, it takes some getting used to. You will need a higher pressure setting, and I also usually use some medical tape to keep the set from swiveling in the gun. You will use the offset set a number of times during the build in similar situations. Keeping the set perpendicular to the spar is also important and harder to do with an offset set, so practice is key. And keep what you are riveting secured so it doesn't move at all.

If you believe the holes are too enlarged, you have a few options, but I'll let Vans or somebody else more knowledgeable chime in. Also do some research on acceptable rivets - often times leaving a less than "perfect" rivet is better than drilling it out and risking mangling the hole.


Chris
 
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It looks like you should be able to get at those a couple of different ways. One would be a hand squeezer with a thick flat set on the ram and a cup set on the yoke. You might need a deeper yoke to get the middle one. You can also use the rivet gun with a straight cup set. Just flex the nose rib out of the way, set the rivets, flex it back into place.

Before you egg those holes out too much, I'd suggest perfecting your rivet removal skills. You'll eventually get good at it, but there's a way to do it that won't enlarge the holes. Learn it now on scrap. :)
 
Thanks Chris - that's helpful. I do have an offset rivet set, so maybe i can give that a try. its funny, i jumped into this gung ho, and lately its been pretty discouraging - but i'm sure most folks who have never done anything like this go through something very similar. Riveting takes some getting used to, for sure... hopefully one of these days I'll master it.

Thanks again
 
DaleB said:
Before you egg those holes out too much, I'd suggest perfecting your rivet removal skills. You'll eventually get good at it, but there's a way to do it that won't enlarge the holes. Learn it now on scrap. :)
Click to expand...

Yep, I thought I had it down. I did a few of them yesterday and they went well. these, not so much. They're not terrible, but they are larger than they were originally, so it may be time for a call to Vans for a new part.

Not sure how easy it is to see here, but this is a pic from the underside with the rivet in the hole.

 
Measure it and see how big it is. If you don't have a caliper yet, now is the time... even the inexpensive Harbor Freight models are OK. Chances are fairly good you're still OK if you don't enlarge it any further, but the specs and the calipers will tell you for sure.
 
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Yea it doesn't look too bad. There are also some tricks you can use in these cases as long as the hole is in specs, like slightly 'pre-squeezing' a rivet before installing it, this will fill out the slightly widened hole and make it easier to set the rivet well. The above mention screws and lock nuts are also a possibility. Come to think of it, there may be one of those on my wing somewhere.

For me anyways, the empennage was the most frustrating part of the build. It gets better!

Chris
 
First rule of riveting, "Never buck a rivet that can be squeezed".

If you don't have a good hand squeezer you will need one. It may be the most important tool you will use during your build.
 
Holes

Holes look ok but measure to be sure.
Quit when that creepy feeling hits. That's when mistakes happen. You'll know the feeling when it comes.
Learn how to feather the trigger on all your air tools. Gun with straight set and tungsten should work fine there. Tape the spring and gun to prevent scratching of the rib. Use some Gorilla tape or snap sok to protect the factory head.
Start with some light hits (feathered) to get a good fit and start the shop head setting straight then increase trigger pressure to set.
Rivets clinch when one or both of the two forces are not aligned with the shank. If you're using the angled end of the bar, it can be tricky to hold it in the right position. Put some Gorilla tape on the bar as well to protect the part from damage.

Squeezer will probably work too but must be positioned correctly or you get clinched shop heads.

You got this!:D
 
You might need a different yoke too. A standard 3" yoke won't reach those rivets, you need a longeron yoke to get in there - I use mine all of the time, definitely more than the std 3" yoke.
 
One of the things that stands out in my early training was the admonition that a rivet gun is a weapon of last resort. That I should hand squeeze if at all possible. (Ie., http://www.averytools.com/products.asp?dept=32) I'd suggest an adjustable set holder to make it even more useful. In the meantime, keep you eye open for a good pneumatic rivet squeezer (you use the same yokes as with the hand squeezer).

Dan
 
CherryMax

One option for a really difficult to drive rivet is to use an oversize CherryMax rivet.

After a bad first attempt and rivet removal, as long as the hole can be cleanly drilled out to #27 for an 1/8 rivet, a CR3243 rivet is structurally acceptable.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherrymax4.php?clickkey=10160

These smaller size CherryMax rivets can be pulled with a good puller, no need for the special one.

Keeping a few of the -1 and -2 lengths around can solve some frustrating problems. :)
 
Gentlemen -

Many thanks. I think i got it. Looks like I have some homework to do on some tool upgrades. I do have a pneumatic squeezer, but with the 3" yoke, I just couldn't maneuver it in there to get a good squeeze.

I wound up doing two things...
1. I put rivets in each hole, even though one of the holes was a little too large. I used the offset rivet set to do this.

2. I added a 4th hole, just to be on the safe side. I will consider this my "signature" left in the plane.



Many good tips - I appreciate it. Now I'll go update by build log so that others can learn from my mistakes :)

Thanks again!
Charlie
 
Close to me

Charlie
I'm watching this build. Can't believe a vans is being built just a few towns away.
Good luck.
Paul
ridgewood
 
Paul -

You're more than welcome to stop by and watch me make mistakes... maybe you can learn from them :)

There is another guy a few blocks away from me who has stopped by, he's going to be ordering an RV-8 kit soon.
 
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Riveting

You should get a number of straight rivet sets from about 3" to about 12". In your case of the nose rib, I would use a 10"-12" long rivet set, and slightly push the rib out of the way so the rivet set goes on the rivet straight. You'll also need to do this on the wing ribs. I tried an offset rivet set but couldn't get consistent results.

I'd also suggest getting a small handful of long 5/32" rivets and a rivet cutter to cut them to the right length. If you think you're frustrated, you should have seen me trying to set a rivet on the counterweight rib on the elevator. I drilled it out so many times I eventually used a 5/32" rivet. In my case, my 2X gun wasn't up to the job, shortly afterwards I got a 3X gun.
 
Help

Sometimes on difficult jobs a riveting partner makes it easier and better looking
than trying to go it alone. My wife became very proficient with a rivet gun !

Doug McMullin
RV-6
 
If you are going use an offset rivet set I would suggest that you have someone else on the bucking bar so that you can use your other hand to hold the rivet set with your fingers to stop it from rotating whilst you operate the rivet gun.

Plus I would hold the spar in place by clamping a 2 x 3 piece of wood to the bench top and clamp the spar to the wood with another smaller piece of wood to stop the spar from moving whilst you rivet. Place both pieces of wood up close to the rib but on the opposite side of the rib to the side you are riveting.

Experience is a great teacher which is an interesting and satisfying part of the building journey.
 
As other post suggest, use an offset rivet set and tape it to the gun so it will not rotate. Clamp the work to your bench and use those little plastic things that go over the end of the 470 sets. If you can get a squeezer in there by all means use it.
 
Bugsiegel said:
Charlie
I'm watching this build. Can't believe a vans is being built just a few towns away.
Good luck.
Paul
ridgewood
Click to expand...

Paul,

You, Charlie and I should grab a beer one of these days. I live a couple blocks from Charlie. You and I can learn from his mistakes!

- Glenn
 
I think you're making my indecisiveness about whether to purchase some of the optional
yokes for the squeezer a little bit easier.
Seeing you bumped up against this so early.
 
Pins

Get the quick change pins. Place a couple rare earth magnets on the side to keep the rings on the pins out of the way.
 
Shot bag

I found it very helpful to have a couple of lead shot bags around. You can use them to hold parts, and keep them from moving on the workbench when working on them.

As for the quick change pins, I gave mine away, when I sold my 4" no hole yoke for the squeezer. I found with the quick change pins, they allowed the yoke head to shift slightly, and would not set a nice rivet. Changing the yoke took less than a minute with the bolts.

As for the no hole yoke, I found out I could set a rivet better with the standard yoke. It was ground down at the tip, for added clearance, and could reach the tight spaces just as well.

Keep up the good work.
 
Good Idea

You bring the turkey, I'll bring the stuffing and the three of us can have the best Thanksgiving every.
Seriously, Right after Thanksgiving we should get together, I"m getting all worked up.
I'll PM you guys
 
I wish someone would have TOLD me to just go buy a longeron yoke, along with a Tungsten bucking bar right from the get go...Day one....
 
Yoke

bret said:
I wish someone would have TOLD me to just go buy a longeron yoke, along with a Tungsten bucking bar right from the get go...Day one....
Click to expand...

Hey Bret.
Go buy a longeron yoke and tungsten bar right away!:D
Actually, I hardly use mine but when it's the only option, I'm sure glad I have it.
 
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