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Mike Seager approach to landings in RVs with C/S

MAP and RPM

I did transition training in "old blue" RV6A C/S with Mike 7 years ago. Basically, on the decent to the pattern he taught MAP and on base and final switched to RPM.
 
Flew with him in June

I flew with Mike in June in "7RV". It's O-320 and Hartzell. He taught: 23 squared for cruise, 12" MAP for descent, 16" on downwind. Fullest tank, check brakes, feet on floor - toes on rudder. Abeam the touchdown point, pull throttle, keep nose level, as it slows through 100 MPH - flaps half. 1 1/2 turns on the trim, boost pump on, prop and mixture forward, add throttle to 1800RPM, ignore MAP. About this time you've lost 200' and are 45 degrees off the TD point, turn base, trim for 85 MPH, angle the base leg toward the runway a little to account for wind. Somewhere on base, full flaps, turn final, hold 85. Pull power somewhere around the fence line, don't plan on adding power again. Don't change pitch until time to round out inches above the runway. If you flare high - pitch down a little as if recovering from stall and re-flare. Once you've got it rounded out, ease back to slowly assume 3 point attitude. When it touches down, steer for a couple of beats then slide feet up and gently begin steering with brakes.

This technique works like gangbusters. Two days after my last flight with Mike, I flew my 6 with perfect confidence.

Ed Holyoke
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. I have 50 hrs on my RV-6a with C/S prop now and trying to come up with a more standadized approach.
 
How about for a 9a?

Since this is in the general forum thread, what about a 9A fixed?

I am getting scary close to being finished with my 9A. I am finishing up my license in a 172 and know the 9 will be way different than the 172. I plan on transition training before I fly myself - both for insurance reasons and Im not an idiot!

Does anyone have a diagram they would be willing to send to me or post for a 9A, fixed Catto prop? I might as well start comparing while I am finishing my license.

Thanks
 
I would certainly caution anyone reading the above posts to try these things at altitude first. Airspeed calibrations on E-AB aircraft vary widely as do handling characteristics in different RV models.

None of the above speeds/techniques would apply in total to my RV-8. I noticed my muscles tightening as I read some of the speeds.

Be careful. Do what works for your airplane and your flying comfort zone.

Chris
 
RV-10

view.php
 
RV-6a or RV-7a C/S pattern diagram

Does anyone has the C/S pattern diagram from Mike Seager?
 
I would certainly caution anyone reading the above posts to try these things at altitude first. Airspeed calibrations on E-AB aircraft vary widely as do handling characteristics in different RV models.

None of the above speeds/techniques would apply in total to my RV-8. I noticed my muscles tightening as I read some of the speeds.

Be careful. Do what works for your airplane and your flying comfort zone.

Chris

Chris, I'm interested in what in particular concerned you.
Absolutely good point on ASI calibration. My ASI reads 59 kts at clean stall! (Not that I actually get a clean stall in the -8, it just gets mushy and the sink rate goes way up) I know the instrument itself reads 3--4 kts high at that speed. (tested with a U-tube manometer). I also know that my static pressure system gives correct airspeed at 165 kt, and the altimeter reads correctly during a high-speed low pass down a runway. I can't therefore fully explain why my INDICATED stall speed is so high.

For a long time I flew patterns and approaches at 80 kt, just because it feels really solid. It gives a lot of ground-float which gives lots of time to get a smooth wheel landing (but also chews up a lot of runway). last year I slowed down to 75 kt on final, which is just one kt faster than the 85 mph mentioned by Bicyclops, when flying solo. It cuts down on ground float a lot and makes the timing of flare and getting the height right a little less forgiving, and reduces the stopping distance significantly. I still tend to fly a little faster when heavy.

Anyway, since my 75 kt is essentially the same as the RV7 85 mph recommendation, I'm wondering what concerned you and what speed/technique you use.
 
To reply to the OP and disregarding the tongue in cheek post I made on the fixed pitch thread, let me submit my 2 cents worth for consideration.

These suggestions will apply to a 6, 7 or 8 with a 320 or 360 and a 2 or 3 blade constant speed propeller.

With a CS prop, we have access to essentially a gearbox, you can liken fine to low and coarse to high gear. We normally start off in low, but we don't need to stop in low, more on that later. The main power indicator becomes the manifold pressure gauge as in typical flight regimes, the propeller speed will stay fixed as selected by you (which gear you are in). So as we depart in fine we transition up the gearbox to a mid range which we climb in, say 2400rpm. Old wisdom says you don't use higher MP than RPM, but it isn't completely true, so we will climb at 24/24 so nobody gets upset. If you are at altitude, you will already know about leaning and away from the highest power settings, leaning can occur fairly lowdown and saves you a buck or two. Cruise leaning is not for here, we are going to get onto pattern stuff very shortly.

At this point, let us have a chat about safety. Any tips and suggestions I may give here on in have been refined over some thousands of hours of small and large aeroplane operation. I ran 3 large single piston aeroplanes for skydiving for close on 10 years before I went commercial - never blew a jug, all three went to TBO. I taught the new guys, I coach guys now and do transition training. What do we start with - slow speed 101 at a safe altitude in a quiet area. Once we have explored the aeroplane's envelope at slow speed, played with stalls, experimented with large scale control deflections around the stall speed and figured how it talks to us, how it warns us and where it will nip us, we can go down. First few approaches never touch the ground - don't need to because we are concentrating on placement, approach gates and the view of the approach. Take out the anticipation of the imminent impact and it is amazing how chilled the first few approaches can be.
We now have lots of safety stuff tucked away before we get onto landings, but hey - back to the thread !

So, here we are around 25 miles out at a mid altitude, we will say 5,000' agl. We've enjoyed the flight, cruised at a mid setting of 23/23, it has cost us to get up to height, our t's and p's are nice and steady and we are ready to descend. We need to be mechanically sympathetic at all times to our engine, it is expensive and quite important in the collection of bits in the whole assembly, so we don't want to shock it or damage it. Once we start on down, we can leave the rpm where it is, it is going to do us well all the way down. MP can come down a tad, though not much, say 20" - let the engine keep producing power and let the speed increase, assuming the conditions permit and are smooth. As we descend, the MP will increase, so chase it down, but keep it at 20" as much lower will take too much heat out of the cylinder heads. Mixture can be brought back to rich, or appropriate for field elevation.

We now get to about 3 miles out and decide we want to join on the 45, so let's get back to pattern speed - say 100kts (I am going to stay in kts, add 15% for mph) and by slowly reducing MP to around 12" our rocket ship will change miraculously back into a Cessna by the time we get to the edge of the pattern. Quick review for your downwind checks, trim, don't get too wide, what if it coughs now, can we get onto the field ? You should now be at 100kts, around 12"/2300. If not - experiment up aloft to find your sweet settings, have an idea what does what at what speed. Dive down to a safe altitude at high speed, hold level and reduce power and see how long the decel takes, what power settings you use on your aeroplane to get to 100kts - bank that info.

By the time we are 30? beyond the threshold in aspect, start the base and inch out some flap, trim. Guys use seconds of travel - perfect, look out and see where they are, it needs to be about 1/3, trim. Let the speed bleed by reducing MP but unless you are up at max weight and into under 1500' runway, leave the prop where it is. We should be slowing to around 75kts now, trim - look and listen. Look at the aspect, listen to the engine, remember these, then you have go to memories to call on when turning onto final in future. Make the view look the same, make the sound about the same and guess what - bingo ! 75kts, stabilised - trim.

Now - assess, do we need full flap, probably not, squeeze a bit more out and leave it there. Quick scan, trim, feet correct, all final checks done, reducing MP, let the speed come back to around 70kts, trim, bleeding through 60kts over the hedge bring the power off, rounding out and - squeak, you are down.

Bummer - you bounced - probably a tad fast, a quick check of the attitude, maybe a squirt of power and deep breath... and land.

Nailed it - breathe and concentrate on the rollout and deceleration.

Don't like it, feel out of trim, off speed - anything, slooooowwwwllly apply power and go round. Use full throttle, bring the flaps up when safe and then after a couple of seconds, bring it back to around 23" for the climbout. Deep breath, another pattern and remind yourself that everyone else goes round now and again.....

This was a long winded way of saying relax, enjoy, don't hang your hat on definitive settings and rigid procedures, use playtime with an experienced pilot to open your mind and increase your experience level on your own aeroplane.

Recap........If in doubt, don't - go to a safe place, review, re plan and repeat. Have a laugh about it afterwards and talk things through with others who you respect.

Oh - and trim :D
 
To reply to the OP and disregarding the tongue in cheek post I made on the fixed pitch thread, let me submit my 2 cents worth for consideration.

These suggestions will apply to a 6, 7 or 8 with a 320 or 360 and a 2 or 3 blade constant speed propeller.

With a CS prop, we have access to essentially a gearbox, you can liken fine to low and coarse to high gear. We normally start off in low, but we don't need to stop in low, more on that later. .....

We now get to about 3 miles out and decide we want to join on the 45, so let's get back to pattern speed - say 100kts (I am going to stay in kts, add 15% for mph) and by slowly reducing MP to around 12" our rocket ship will change miraculously back into a Cessna by the time we get to the edge of the pattern. Quick review for your downwind checks, trim, don't get too wide, what if it coughs now, can we get onto the field ? You should now be at 100kts, around 12"/2300.
By the time we are 30° beyond the threshold in aspect, start the base and inch out some flap, trim. Guys use seconds of travel - perfect, look out and see where they are, it needs to be about 1/3, trim. Let the speed bleed by reducing MP but unless you are up at max weight and into under 1500' runway, leave the prop where it is. We should be slowing to around 75kts now, trim - look and listen.

Oh - and trim :D

My main comment about Mike's procedure here is leaving the prop at 2300. If you do at some point need to do a go-around, you want to be able to just go to full power. With the prop at 2300, you are not going to get it, and it is pretty far over square to go full throttle. Given that something is not right, warranting the go-around, you may be preoccupied enough to forget to push the prop forward before or during pushing the throttle forward. So why not just have it in fine pitch, ready to go if you need it?

So, my procedure is to go to fine pitch on downwind as part of my downwind checklist. (GUMP)
I use about 2200 rpm with a notch of flaps and that gives me 80-85 kts on downwind constant altitude. Then something like 1700 RPM abeam the numbers to start descending.
 
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There's four benefits for moving the prop to fine on the downwind leg. The CS prop can be a big speed brake if it's in fine pitch and the RVs can benefit from some drag for landing.

1) I find fine pitch useful on downwind to get the speed down to flap speed. Leave it fine after that for additional benefits.

2) During base and final, you will have a certain combination of MP, RPM and flaps to make a standard approach. Should you lose power during any of that, moving the prop to coarse (provided the engine is still turning) to remove some prop drag and improve the glide performance considerably. Moving flaps from full to 1/2 will also help but they may not be at full yet.

3) On final with the airplane configured for drag as above (1.4x stall speed, 1.3x when you're more proficient) I round out THEN pull the power back. It will immediately sink cause there's all that drag hanging out. Hold the nose up and off even after the mains are down and until there's no more aerodynamics available with full stick back. Keep the stick full back until parked.

4) Finally, should you need full power to go around, the prop is already configured.

The above is my 2 cents worth based on my experience with RV7A 180Hp and CS prop. YMMV.

Bevan.
 
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My main comment about Mike's procedure here is leaving the prop at 2300. If you do at some point need to do a go-around, you want to be able to just go to full power. With the prop at 2300, you are not going to get it, and it is pretty far over square to go full throttle. Given that something is not right, warranting the go-around, you may be preoccupied enough to forget to push the prop forward before or during pushing the throttle forward. So why not just have it in fine pitch, ready to go if you need it?

So, my procedure is to go to fine pitch on downwind as part of my downwind checklist. (GUMP)
I use about 2200 rpm with a notch of flaps and that gives me 80-85 kts on downwind constant altitude. Then something like 1700 RPM abeam the numbers to start descending.

Steve,
A question on your comment about being over square at 2300 RPM with full throttle: My fixed pitch 0320 RV6A turns about 2300RPM on take off with full throttle. Other than not making full horsepower, what issues (damage?) do I face by running "over square"?
Thanks
 
Steve,
A question on your comment about being over square at 2300 RPM with full throttle: My fixed pitch 0320 RV6A turns about 2300RPM on take off with full throttle. Other than not making full horsepower, what issues (damage?) do I face by running "over square"?
Thanks

The Lycoming performance charts in the Operating Manual show HP at various RPM and MAP combinations. At lower RPMs (below 2400), the power curves stop at various MAP, with a notation of "max pressure for continuous operation", presumably because Lycoming does not recommend operating at that low an RPM and high MAP. Its kind of like lugging your car in too high a gear. For reference, the chart for my IO-360-A1A shows 28 in. Hg limit at 2300 RPM. (figure 3-24 in my Operations Manual).

That being said, you make a good point about fixed pitch prop operation. The thing is, you open the throttle and start your ground roll, and although static RPM might be 2300, the RPM very quickly increases. And of course engine power increases with the increasing RPM, so by take-off, you are getting much higher RPM and close to max engine power. This takeoff transient is not what would be considered 'continuous operation.'

That is quite different from doing a go-around with a constant speed prop set at 2300 RM, where full throttle and 2300 RPM will be maintained for an acceleration and climb to some particular altitude where you may consider it safe to change engine settings, presumably either pushing the prop forward or closing the throttle some.

Of course, all this only has significance near sea level where there is enough pressure to be an issue.
Note also that the notion of "over-square" being a problem itself is disproved by the performance charts. The charts define the max MAP for each RPM and the boundary is WAY beyond the fake limit of 'square'.
 
RV6 IO-360 CS Might not be text book but it works good for me.
Down wind I like be at 2300 rpm 90+ knots, throttle back before the perch, or just after abeam the no's. Start the flaps down turning base 87 to 90 kts. Pull power enough where I can run the prop full forward and the rpm stays down. Around 1800 rpm maybe less on base. Not so much engine breaking. If power is needed it'll be there. 80 usually to 85 max kts turning final and start rounding out just before the threshold bleeding off speed. Add a little power back in if needed for a wheel landing or throttle back for 3 point. Can't say I've ever looked at the AI at touchdown. I like fairly steep approaches for the good control feel or if the engine craps out.

I don't see the need to slow so much it feels mushy until almost over the runway? Why not keep good positive control feel? If the engine is set up to idle 600 or so rpm as mine is, (600 for landing not taxiing or holding) if I want to quit flying just pull the throttle all the way back. Speed bleeds off pretty fast. Landing short field would be different of course, slower on final.

Feel free to criticize.

I didn't do any transition training. Got my tail-wheel endorsement in a Scout and flew the RV6 home. My brother, HRII driver, helped me smooth things over a bit the next day along with advise from friends. I'll probly get it for admitting that! But that was probably the most fun I've ever had... just don't do it!:rolleyes:
 
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oversquare myth?

Another article. https://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184274-1.html

"Oversquare" is Good

In fact, flying your engine oversquare can be very good for it. As long as you are using a power setting allowed by the manufacturer in the power setting tables, use the lowest RPM you can for the percent power you want and then select the corresponding manifold pressure. How is this good for your engine? The higher the RPM you use, the more often the pistons go up and down in the cylinders. More revolutions mean the metal changes position more often, which causes more friction and consequently more wear. Your propeller will also be more efficient at a lower RPM. The higher the RPM setting, the closer the tips of the prop blades are to the speed of sound and all the compressibility and high drag effects associated with operation in that regime.

You'll also find the lower RPM settings are quieter and easier on you and your passengers. Sometimes you'll find a legal power setting that just doesn't make your engine happy. This is caused by the particular airframe-engine-propeller combination and will usually result in increased vibration. Just change to another permitted power setting and all should be well.
 
I just wanted to say that I hardly ever look at the MAP indication. Not much point at 7000 feet. On approach to downwind, I anticipate slowing down by reducing throttle and actually slow by making a fairly steep turn to downwind, then pitch for desired airspeed and manipulate throttle to maintain altitude and the prop full in. Well before abeam I should be stabilized. If I'm going to use flaps (you do practice no-flap landings, right?) then I add a click here and start trimming for my base leg speed. As I turn to base, I add the second click of flaps, start trimming for final, and use the throttle to correct descent rate as needed. Turning to final, I put in the last of the flap and then it's all throttle until flare or go-around. Airspeed is critical, throttle is whatever is needed to maintain the proper descent, which is not a number because it depends on too many things - how tight/loose is your pattern (not always in your control when you have to extend downwind for other traffic), did you hit a patch of sink/lift, flaps/no flaps, and so on.
 
Chris, I'm interested in what in particular concerned you.
.........
Anyway, since my 75 kt is essentially the same as the RV7 85 mph recommendation, I'm wondering what concerned you and what speed/technique you use.

Well Steve, items like this concern me: "...while dropping nose and holding 70mph for the turn to base, half way in base full flaps, hold airspeed and 1800 rpm, turn final, point to threshold, begin nose up and cut engine (60 mph) over threshold...."

and then this: "...If you flare high - pitch down a little as if recovering from stall and re-flare. Once you've got it rounded out, ease back to slowly assume 3 point attitude.."

These are things that if I did them in my -8 I would meet the ground very quickly and with less than satisfactory results. I can't imagine turning base at 70 mph or being at 60 mph over the threshold in my airplane especially with the power off. I understand the quoted aircraft is not an -8 and may or may not have CS prop, etc. and so that is why I caution about using a technique appropriate to the particular aircraft and not apply it to all RVs. I also suspect that even for a -6 this airspeed calibration looks a bit "iffy" to me (note it is in MPH). But again I don't fly a -6.

As to the second quote, my -8 is not a three point airplane. I've tried it and, especially with no power, it does not work well. The -8 just tends to be nose heavy and handles better as a wheel landing airplane. Yes, I've successfully landed it three point but usually with a passenger in back. Keep in mind -8s are tandem and that makes a significant difference in cg and handling conditions. As far as the flare recovery technique mentioned, I'm thinking that pitching down after a high flare had better be accompanied by adding a lot of power or else you'll have an arrival rather than a landing.

The 85 mph you mention in your technique is the speed I typically aim for on base and final with an over the fence around 80 mph. I enter downwind at about 120 MPH plus or minus, add 10 degrees of flap to slow the airplane down (RVs have drag flaps and they work well), then at about 100 mph (white arc) on downwind I add more flap depending on conditions (I use 20 degrees if very windy or 40 degrees for most landings). Then I aim for the 85 mph mentioned earlier. I basically disregard rpm and mp once in the pattern and use airspeed as my main reference. I advance the prop as I approach 85 mph. As I said my over the fence speed is about 80 mph (if I err it's to the high side of this); much less than that (in my airplane at least) and the -8 gets mushy, and starts to sink rapidly. Again this may be an airspeed calibration variance.

So I realize I am bearing myself to much criticism on technique and I'm sure I've left a few things out, but I've flown my -8 for more than 700 hours and the technique has let me "keep the shiny side up" as truckers say.

The original point of my comments, I repeat, was to caution people, especially newbies, to weigh the techniques that others publish (including mine) carefully as they may not work for your particular airplane and its airspeed accuracy. When in doubt find an instructor familiar with your model and seek advice.

Please keep flames on low :D

Chris
 
Well Steve, items like this concern me: "...while dropping nose and holding 70mph for the turn to base, half way in base full flaps, hold airspeed and 1800 rpm, turn final, point to threshold, begin nose up and cut engine (60 mph) over threshold...."

and then this: "...If you flare high - pitch down a little as if recovering from stall and re-flare. Once you've got it rounded out, ease back to slowly assume 3 point attitude.."

These are things that if I did them in my -8 I would meet the ground very quickly and with less than satisfactory results. I can't imagine turning base at 70 mph or being at 60 mph over the threshold in my airplane especially with the power off. I understand the quoted aircraft is not an -8 and may or may not have CS prop, etc. and so that is why I caution about using a technique appropriate to the particular aircraft and not apply it to all RVs. I also suspect that even for a -6 this airspeed calibration looks a bit "iffy" to me (note it is in MPH). But again I don't fly a -6.

As to the second quote, my -8 is not a three point airplane. I've tried it and, especially with no power, it does not work well. The -8 just tends to be nose heavy and handles better as a wheel landing airplane. Yes, I've successfully landed it three point but usually with a passenger in back. Keep in mind -8s are tandem and that makes a significant difference in cg and handling conditions. As far as the flare recovery technique mentioned, I'm thinking that pitching down after a high flare had better be accompanied by adding a lot of power or else you'll have an arrival rather than a landing.

The 85 mph you mention in your technique is the speed I typically aim for on base and final with an over the fence around 80 mph. I enter downwind at about 120 MPH plus or minus, add 10 degrees of flap to slow the airplane down (RVs have drag flaps and they work well), then at about 100 mph (white arc) on downwind I add more flap depending on conditions (I use 20 degrees if very windy or 40 degrees for most landings). Then I aim for the 85 mph mentioned earlier. I basically disregard rpm and mp once in the pattern and use airspeed as my main reference. I advance the prop as I approach 85 mph. As I said my over the fence speed is about 80 mph (if I err it's to the high side of this); much less than that (in my airplane at least) and the -8 gets mushy, and starts to sink rapidly. Again this may be an airspeed calibration variance.

So I realize I am bearing myself to much criticism on technique and I'm sure I've left a few things out, but I've flown my -8 for more than 700 hours and the technique has let me "keep the shiny side up" as truckers say.

The original point of my comments, I repeat, was to caution people, especially newbies, to weigh the techniques that others publish (including mine) carefully as they may not work for your particular airplane and its airspeed accuracy. When in doubt find an instructor familiar with your model and seek advice.

Please keep flames on low :D

Chris

I agree on all points. Sounds like our -8s are much the same. Although the issue with 3-pt landing the -8 doesn't seem to me related to it being nose heavy. I don't have any trouble getting the nose up. I can trim for 85 mph (75 kts) and just round out and hold it off. I can absolutely nail a 3-pt attitude, and just grease it on. Then the problems come. The issue is that it is still flying, even though all the wheels are touching the ground. It is squirrely and skittish, no weight on the wheels to brake, not much positive feel that it will go where you point it. One doesn't have much of a feeling of being in control. Rounding out to a wheel landing seems so much more positive.

I appreciate the affirmation that a few posts, like yours, has given me - I'm pretty comfortable with my strategy, and it is nice to hear others doing about the same. I sometimes have wondered if it is just me and/or my -8 that seems to want to land faster than some people quote.
 
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I agree on all points. Sounds like our -8s are much the same....

I appreciate the affirmation that a few posts, like yours, has given me - I'm pretty comfortable with my strategy, and it is nice to hear others doing about the same. I sometimes have wondered if it is just me and/or my -8 that seems to want to land faster than some people quote.

Amen.

I have a friend who always lands his -8 shorter than me. But he's quite aggressive on the brakes whereas I let the airplane bleed off speed until the tail wants to come down on its own before I touch the brakes.

Chris
 
I agree on all points. Sounds like our -8s are much the same.

I agree also.
I've flown with all the 2-place RV's of all types in formation and in the pattern. We all use the same speeds. Downwind- 87 kts(100 MPH). Base with full flaps 78 Kts(90 MPH). Final 70KTS (80 MPH). These speeds work well in all environments as far as I've experienced.

The 60MPH speed is way too slow unless the original poster has slow speed indicated errors that are way out of whack. That 60 MPH posted speed certainly grabbed my attention. :eek:
 
One thing I've learned flying at non-towered airports with my non-RV, is that it's a very good idea to slow to flap speed and set up the right approach configuration (speed, flaps, fuel, prop to go-around position, etc.) well before entering the pattern - even before joining the 45 degree entry leg. This gets my attention out of the cockpit and focused on other potential traffic and the airport environment.

Another thing worth doing is getting the landing light on - makes your plane more visible.

So the order is: configuration first, then the pattern.

Dave
 
The Lycoming performance charts in the Operating Manual show HP at various RPM and MAP combinations. At lower RPMs (below 2400), the power curves stop at various MAP, with a notation of "max pressure for continuous operation", presumably because Lycoming does not recommend operating at that low an RPM and high MAP. Its kind of like lugging your car in too high a gear. For reference, the chart for my IO-360-A1A shows 28 in. Hg limit at 2300 RPM. (figure 3-24 in my Operations Manual).

That being said, you make a good point about fixed pitch prop operation. The thing is, you open the throttle and start your ground roll, and although static RPM might be 2300, the RPM very quickly increases. And of course engine power increases with the increasing RPM, so by take-off, you are getting much higher RPM and close to max engine power. This takeoff transient is not what would be considered 'continuous operation.'

That is quite different from doing a go-around with a constant speed prop set at 2300 RM, where full throttle and 2300 RPM will be maintained for an acceleration and climb to some particular altitude where you may consider it safe to change engine settings, presumably either pushing the prop forward or closing the throttle some.

Of course, all this only has significance near sea level where there is enough pressure to be an issue.
Note also that the notion of "over-square" being a problem itself is disproved by the performance charts. The charts define the max MAP for each RPM and the boundary is WAY beyond the fake limit of 'square'.

My full throttle climb at 115Kts yields 2350RPM at 10.4GPH. I don't have my Manifold pressure sensor installed yet.
 
RV-8 3-point skittishness

I agree on all points. Sounds like our -8s are much the same. Although the issue with 3-pt landing the -8 doesn't seem to me related to it being nose heavy. I don't have any trouble getting the nose up. I can trim for 85 mph (75 kts) and just round out and hold it off. I can absolutely nail a 3-pt attitude, and just grease it on. Then the problems come. The issue is that it is still flying, even though all the wheels are touching the ground. It is squirrely and skittish, no weight on the wheels to brake, not much positive feel that it will go where you point it. One doesn't have much of a feeling of being in control. Rounding out to a wheel landing seems so much more positive.

I appreciate the affirmation that a few posts, like yours, has given me - I'm pretty comfortable with my strategy, and it is nice to hear others doing about the same. I sometimes have wondered if it is just me and/or my -8 that seems to want to land faster than some people quote.

Same for me in my old -8 with the CS BA Hartzell. It's odd that folks used to talk about the RV-8 tail shake at stall, but not referenced much as it relates to landing. I think that skittish-ness is exactly that. I would always notice that on three point landings. Less so on a flap-less landing.

I would fly the approach from base to final at 90 mph at idle power and be down to 80 mph in the round out. And almost always do a greaser tail low wheel landing. In my buddy's 8 with a CS Whirlwind 200RV for the same approach I have to keep in some power or the sink rate is much higher than with my old 8 with the same exact size pattern. Clearly more flywheel effect with the Hartzell.

It's always solid and stable on wheel landings. If you three point the 8 it gets skittish possibly due to buffet on the tail (aka: the tail shake). I could always three point 4s and 6s no problem.

YMMV.

Rob
 
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I did transition training with Mike in 2011, and his pattern procedure is still the one I -generally- use to approach and land my CS RV8.

However, as other posters have mentioned, speeds and MAP setting will vary by aircraft model.. mine is a stabilized 80kts on base, and 75-80kts on final depending on conditions.

That being said, all those fixed numbers apply when you are by yourself in the pattern. You have to know your attitudes and sight pictures from any position in the pattern. At my airport (as at yours too I suspect) there are many different aircraft types that you could be stuck behind... all performing their own version of pattern... from a tight in pattern to the four mile student pilot bomber command final. You should be comfortable flying your A/C in all of those patterns, adjusting flap and MAP to suit.

In other words, Mike taught me a way to safely land my RV, but it was up to me to learn all of the other landing situations and use what he taught me to adjust for conditions.

My 2Cents

Chris
 
This thread might need some activity with more current information. And specific information by model/engine/prop. The speeds listed for the 8 are just too fast for the my 7, and the controversy within about 2300 RPM setting was misunderstood. Mike teaches to pull back throttle fully on downwind, push prop speed to full, set flaps, then (all smoothly/quickly) while maintaining altitude add engine/throttle rpm back up to 2300. I think he said 18-1900 for me.** This is not a governed rpm or power. The key is know that the prop in this zone is acting like a fixed pitch at the fine pitch stop.

Reading the RVAtor article by Ken Scott, he mentions a couple of relevant things - 1. the RV in ground effect and near stall can/will just drop (not a 9) due to the short wing ( and really bounce). And 2. chopping the throttle can precipitate a rapid slowdown with the CS prop. The latter is significant, even though Mike teaches this in the RV7 with the 320 engine. I have the Hartzell Composite 7605 blade with a 9-10" cord. That fat prop is very draggy if chopped suddenly. A steady pull back as crossing the threshold slows to touchdown speed or a wheel landing squeaker if less rapid.

Recalibrating my AOA and better attention to speed/AOA on descent closer to the slow speeds mentioned above have greatly helped my touchdowns. Without bounce. The AOA has provided good confidence of stall margin without having to look at airspeed after the threshold.

** This rpm will be different for flap, airplane, and GW. If not known, a little slow flight work farther from the ground would be helpful to establish this for your plane.
 
It's interesting that there has been no mention of angle of attack in this thread. My guess is that the techniques mentioned here are faster than the AOA crowd advocates.

Other factors to be considered in choosing the final approach speed are how fast the RV decelerates with power off, and same with sink rate. I've noticed in my RVs (RV-4, 160HP/FP; RV-8, 160HP/CS; RV-8, 180HP/CS; RV-9A, 160HP, FP then CS) differences in how quickly the airplane decelerates with power all the way back.

When I bought the RV-9A, the idle speed was too high and the plane only slowed down on the rollout to 45 knots on a very long runway. That got fixed pretty quick!

My RV-8 with full flaps came down like a brick, great fun if you were prepared. The challenge in the -8 was full flaps, power all the way back opposite the number, and do a no-bounce wheel landing. It was oh so easy to bounce it, even if just a little bit...
 
One thing I've learned flying at non-towered airports with my non-RV, is that it's a very good idea to slow to flap speed and set up the right approach configuration (speed, flaps, fuel, prop to go-around position, etc.) well before entering the pattern - even before joining the 45 degree entry leg. This gets my attention out of the cockpit and focused on other potential traffic and the airport environment.

Another thing worth doing is getting the landing light on - makes your plane more visible.

So the order is: configuration first, then the pattern.

Dave

Should be mandatory.... like on motorcycles, always on.
 
I agree, using AOA is a better measurement, but it is not some finite number, like .6, etc, because of the different AOA systems. Mine is an analog needle on a scale, and I know where I want that needle on my final approach. But I’ve found using an indicated airspeed is what works while in the pattern and trying to manage spacing on other aircraft. On final, my AOA is what I use.
 
I fly a RV-4, IO-360 with CS. I fly a tight pattern, downwind about 1.25 mile from runway, no power. Enter pattern at flap speed, around 120 mph indicated, 15", prop set for cruise ~ 2,100 rpm usually. To land on the touchdown zone 1,000 foot from threshold I wait until the 1000 mark is at about 45 degrees behind me, off trailing edge of left wingtip. I usually just count ten after passing and pull power. Immediately turn base and start slowing up and trimming up to DMMS, 1.404 of clean stall speed which for me is 84 mph indicated. Set prop for go around, for me is 2,500. At this point I judge my progress. If I look way high I might select full flaps which is 48 degrees. Too low no flaps. Way low pull the prop back to increase glide. Maintain 84 mph and turn final. When I'm on final and aligned with runway, go to full flaps, reduced speed to VRef, 1.3 stall speed, full flaps which for me is 70 mph indicated and hold this 'til I'm over the numbers. If I'm high I will use a little slip. Start reducing speed again once in ground effect and touch down around 60 tail low wheel landing. Go around is power to 25 x 25, flaps up, trim for best climb around 120. This will usually get me stopped in less than 1000 feet from touchdown. I can usually do around 10 stop and gos with no traffic
 
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