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  #1  
Old 01-08-2019, 07:49 PM
djmcleod djmcleod is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: South Carolina, USA
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Default Hoping this mistake doesnít equal a new HS Spar

I was trying to punch out a rivet tonight whilst riveting my HS spar together (page 8-6). I was unable to punch it out so slowly started to drill further into the rivet with a #40 and continued to punch it. Still couldnít get it so I drilled through the whole shaft. Whilst being careful to keep it aligned at the top the drill bit was pushed to the side out the bottom (see photos, first post so I hope they work). https://photos.app.goo.gl/FhmX7miRrrTdP9kM7

Iíve flicked an email off to Vans but thought Iíd throw it on here whilst I wait for their response. Hoping to save my work. The HS-1002 part isnít on Vans parts list and while it may not be overly expensive the shipping to the East Coast will be a devil.

Also Iíve been having some issues with rivets being hard to push in by hand due the primer. Is it an issue to use a metal object (read hammer) to gentle tap them in (not pounding but they are too tight to push in with hand). Would this cause any damage to the shaft of the rivet, if it will I guess Iíll have to ream the holes.

Thanks for your thoughts.
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Last edited by djmcleod : 01-08-2019 at 08:35 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-08-2019, 08:04 PM
BillL BillL is offline
 
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Definitely do not pound the rivets in the holes, ream with a reamer or drill through with a bit in your hand. If it was just a little alignment, I use an awl to gently burnish the ID bore until the rivet fits nicely by hand.

As to the hole, I will let Vans make the call.

But - you need to learn to drill. Get a head magnifier and make a dozen rivets in a test piece, then drill them out until you don't damage the parent material. You should be 99.5% effective. Practice until you are. I turn the bit about 8 revolutions at a time, angle the bit as needed to KEEP it in the center. Angle too much and you will wallow out the hole, but you will get better. Just make sure it is learned on scrap, not the plane.
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  #3  
Old 01-08-2019, 08:29 PM
DRMA DRMA is offline
 
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If I recall correctly, these rivets are AN426AD4, so you should probably have been using a #30 drill bit to remove them. The #40 bit is for AD3 size rivets, and won't remove enough material to allow the AD4 rivet to be easily removed.

I agree with Bill L's advice - get some scrap metal, drill and rivet a couple pieces together with a bunch of rivets, both AD3 and AD4 sizes, round heads (AN470) and countersunk (AN426); and then practice removing them.

And get yourself a #30 and a #40 reamer. With the thick primer you are using, you will probably need to use the reamer in most of the holes in order to insert the rivets into the holes by hand.

You might want to look for a nearby EAA chapter and find a Technical Advisor or experienced builder who will work with you to help you improve your technique. Much easier with someone helping than to try to figure it out yourself with just the Van's Section 5 and YouTube.

Hang in there, you'll get a handle on it with a bit of practice and it will become much easier as your build progresses.
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  #4  
Old 01-08-2019, 09:00 PM
djmcleod djmcleod is offline
 
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Location: South Carolina, USA
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Thanks for the replies.

Iíve done all the practice drilling removing rivets both 470 and 426 but only up to -4s, never anything greater. Havenít had an issue drilling a few out on the kit either, until now. This was the second -10 I drilled out tonight after creating a smiley on one and slightly over bucking this one (should have left them in hindsight). The first one there was nil issues. I used a 40 on the 4-10 rivet as I was worried about not enlarging the hole and wanted to use the size under. First one was fine, this one I couldnít budge it with the punch hence I continued to drill. With the drill aligned at the manufactured end I was surprise at the amount of deflection on the shop end. It was the last rivet of the night and half way through I just rushed it.

In terms of the rivet issue. It wasnít pounding in rivets, a few get caught up on the Epoxy primer, the epoxy primer covers thick. Some need one little tap to break the primer, not an alignment issue. Iíll just ream them out in future, just in case.
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  #5  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:17 AM
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flion flion is offline
 
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That primer looks way too thick. In any case, if you are having to 'break' the primer to get the rivets in, you'd be better off reaming the holes. If you are worried that this will remove protection at the holes, you can rivet 'wet' by dipping the rivets in primer before inserting them. Overkill, in my opinion, but it has been done before.
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  #6  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:47 AM
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BrianDC BrianDC is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flion View Post
That primer looks way too thick. In any case, if you are having to 'break' the primer to get the rivets in, you'd be better off reaming the holes. If you are worried that this will remove protection at the holes, you can rivet 'wet' by dipping the rivets in primer before inserting them. Overkill, in my opinion, but it has been done before.
I was under the impression you actually wanted the holes to be somewhat clean to ensure not only a mechanical connection, but an electrical connection as well. (ignoring the whole debate if priming is even needed).

Either way, hopefully Vans is able to recommend that you re-drill the hole to a larger size (get it round again) and either use a bolt or larger rivet (if you can set it).

Another suggestion is get a slightly smaller drill bit (#33 or #34 for drilling -4, #43 or #44 for drilling a -3 rivet) in case you are slightly off-center. Then you can pull the rivet tail out as described in Section 5.2 (figure 2). If needed follow-up with a reamer to make sure the hole is clean. Been working well for me so far.
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Last edited by BrianDC : 01-09-2019 at 07:54 AM.
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  #7  
Old 01-09-2019, 05:36 PM
djmcleod djmcleod is offline
 
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Location: South Carolina, USA
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Patrick/Brian,

Thanks for the replies and tips.

Vans replied and it’s either a doubler over the hole or remove the spar cap and replace. The spar and doubler are still good. So a $30 mistake.

The light on the primer makes it look worst than it is with the orange peel but the water based epoxy primer does seem to come out thick when compared to SEM. I need to work on thinning it more and my coverage.

I’ll look into some smaller drill bits. It had been going fine till now, think I may get some thick scrap and practice my long rivet drill technique for when I can’t punch a -10 out again.

I’d say the last two comments where more helpful than the first one of drill better.
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  #8  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:11 PM
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JonJay JonJay is offline
 
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First off never ďdrill outĒ or through the rivet. Drill only deep enough to allow you to pop the rivet head off. With the head off you should be able to easily punch the rivet out. Even if you successfully drill through the rivet without wandering, when you try to punch it out, the drilled shaft deforms, puckers, and swells. If the shaft is left intact, it wonít swell up.

This is rivet removal 101 stuff. Get some assistance or at least research the many, many posts here and the EAA videos on the correct procedures to remove a rivet.

Never drill through the rivet with any size drill!
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  #9  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:19 PM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
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To remove a rivet, I like to use a smaller drill to go about 2/3 of the way through. For this, I use a drill bit ten numbers smaller than is appropriate for the rivet. So for a -4 rivet, I'd first use a #40 drill.

Then I drill just the head off with teh correct drill. For this example, I'd drill just the head with #30. Then pop the head off and use a punch that's 3/32" diameter, matching the #40 hole, to knock the body out. The smaller drill weakens the body and makes it easier to punch out.

Dave
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  #10  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:27 PM
Girraf Girraf is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule View Post
To remove a rivet, I like to use a smaller drill to go about 2/3 of the way through. For this, I use a drill bit ten numbers smaller than is appropriate for the rivet. So for a -4 rivet, I'd first use a #40 drill.

Then I drill just the head off with teh correct drill. For this example, I'd drill just the head with #30. Then pop the head off and use a punch that's 3/32" diameter, matching the #40 hole, to knock the body out. The smaller drill weakens the body and makes it easier to punch out.

Dave
This exact method works flawlessly for me when drilling out -4 Rivets. It is imperative though to take great care in keeping the drill going straight into the rivet.
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