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Steel AN fittings - some questions

Flying Scotsman

Well Known Member
Thinking of using a steel AN bulkhead fitting for the fuel line at the firewall (hey, everything else there is steel, why not this fitting, too? :) ). Anyone have any thoughts on this? (Optional follow-on question...is there such a thing as a steel AN Spacer a la the one's Van's sells?).

Just wondering about the possibility of dissimilar metal corrosion in the aluminum-to-steel interfaces, etc.
 
Dont forget to replace all the aluminum rivets in the firewall with steel ones as well :)

Steel rather than aluminum fittings at the firewall arent high on my priority list, but if it makes you more comfortable, I dont see any strong reason why not to use them. Are you concerned about heat tolerance? If you are at the point where it would make a difference, I dont think a fitting or two is gonna make or break you. Galvanic corrosion shouldnt be an issue unless you get persistent moisture caught between the two metals. Im not aware of any steel spacers available, but you may be able to make your own using a fender washer as a starting point

erich
 
Yeah, I know, it's probably way overkill, especially given the (as you noted) bunches of aluminum rivets :). I just figured if you replaced the cabin heat valve with a steel one to prevent a great big blast of flame and smoke and fumes, why not replace the fittings to prevent a smaller one? Of course, then there are all those rivets to melt away and create hundreds of tiny little jets of flame and smoke! LOL!

Steve
 
Mmm good idea.

Dont forget to replace all the aluminum rivets in the firewall with steel ones as well :)

Steel rather than aluminum fittings at the firewall arent high on my priority list, but if it makes you more comfortable, I dont see any strong reason why not to use them. Are you concerned about heat tolerance? If you are at the point where it would make a difference, I dont think a fitting or two is gonna make or break you. Galvanic corrosion shouldnt be an issue unless you get persistent moisture caught between the two metals. Im not aware of any steel spacers available, but you may be able to make your own using a fender washer as a starting point

erich

I used Cad plated Monel rivets for the engine mount corner brackets. That was one area I thought would not be overkill; and increase the safety factor. A little stronger and much more heat resistant.

I will be using steel or stainless steel for all fuel penetrations.
 
Heavy Metal

I was taught to use steel on fuel FWF. Vibration is the biggest reason. You get hot enough to melt aluminium you got other problems. I'm using a 6D fitting on the firewall but probably shouldn't. ****, now I gotta take it off. I hate this forum.
 
Yeah, I know, it's probably way overkill, especially given the (as you noted) bunches of aluminum rivets :). I just figured if you replaced the cabin heat valve with a steel one to prevent a great big blast of flame and smoke and fumes, why not replace the fittings to prevent a smaller one? Of course, then there are all those rivets to melt away and create hundreds of tiny little jets of flame and smoke! LOL!

My first thoughts regarding an engine fire... will be immediately turning the fuel selector to off, which will eliminate a major fuel source for an ongoing fire.
I'm a furnace guy by trade, and it's amazing of what turning off the gas will do! :)

I have a hunch that if a raging engine fire is getting through the penetrations of a firewall..............then the fiberglass cowling and windscreen are going to be having some major problems as well. At this point, we'll assume the fuel source is just oil.

In the meantime, I've used aluminum AN fittings at the firewall, but a steel fitting on the carb, since it's small & has a better chance for the shakes. My larger fittings for the oil cooler are aluminum AN.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
FAR 23.1191 (3)(g): Firewall materials and fittings must resist flame penetration for at least 15 minutes.

But hey, fire is no big deal.

The Feds were just being cautious when they wrote the FAR, and the Mil specs for fire resistance are just a fantasy. The fire test handbooks? They just flat made up all that stuff....sorta like the moon landings.

All you need to snuff a fire is superior pilot skill.

Anyway, everybody knows homebuilts are less safe, so why bother with details?
 
Steel rivets?

Just curious. For the firewall has anyone substituted steel rivets for all of the standard aluminum ones that come with the kit? How difficult are they to set vs aluminum?
 
My rant...

FAR 23.1191 (3)(g): Firewall materials and fittings must resist flame penetration for at least 15 minutes.

But hey, fire is no big deal.

The Feds were just being cautious when they wrote the FAR, and the Mil specs for fire resistance are just a fantasy. The fire test handbooks? They just flat made up all that stuff....sorta like the moon landings.

All you need to snuff a fire is superior pilot skill.

Anyway, everybody knows homebuilts are less safe, so why bother with details?

Getting back to "reality"...

Yes, my superior pilot skill will at least snuff the major source of a FWF fire. I'll turn off that stinkin fuel supply.

The 2000 degree flame thrower test for 15 mins certainly doesn't take into account........all that fiberglass surounding it either. And speaking of fiberglass, that "certified" Cirrus descending by it's parachute last month, didn't look too safe either. I felt just horrible for it's occupants. At the same time, I guess we should be thrilled that our RVs are a lot more metal! Burning fiberglass boats evaporate in just a few minutes too. The FAA might have to ban fiberglass planes, and Boeing could be on the wrong track too.

Yes, I'm spouting off a bit. Perhaps I shouldn't. But in the meantime, my 3/8" fuel fitting that penatrates the firewall is about 4" from my fiberglass cowling. It's also an aluminum AN fitting. Worse than that, I can't remember if my heater duct is aluminum or stainless steel, as it's been much too long since I installed it.

So again, looking at the whole situation in a realistic way, at what point is it all overkill? At what point has the complete fiberglass cowl gone up in smoke before my AN fitting at the bottom of my firewall has melted.

This is the exact reason I don't go for the flame thrower test. Yes, it proves the durability of stainless steel and possible firewall insulations. But that's all it does! It doesn't take into account the rest of the aircraft firewall forward, and what's left when temps reach that high. What's happening to everything else!!! And yes, I'm a furnace guy. Have been looking at flames for nearly 40 years. Maybe I'm just num.:confused:

Perhaps the whole shell firewall forward (cowl & all) should be stainless steel. Or we can just stay on the ground, and forget it all! End of rant...

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
I'm with Dan on this one

I noted the new Aerosport Power engine for my -4 was supplied with all steel fittings. On my Rocket the FW rivets appear to be stainless. I have steel fittings for all the FWF stuff and anything going through the FW. I will also use a stainless heater box. And I will put some fireproof ceramic material on the floor and inside the firewall.

Overkill? Maybe, but fire in the air scares me. I firmly believe a few extra seconds of protection could make the difference between running away or becoming a crispy critter. I am definitely not numb!
 
lycoming had alum AN fittings for prop gov line for years on certified planes but changed to steel. Not for fire protection but for fatigue life (vibes) at least that is how the AD read.
 
So the vibration/wear issue is one I hadn't actually thought about for FW penetrations, but now that it has come up...seems all the more reason to use steel fittings and such for any FW penetration. Anyone aware of an example of such wear occuring on Al fittings or other parts when used in a SS part (like the firewall)?
 
And I will put some fireproof ceramic material on the floor and inside the firewall.

Somewhere in a different thread, Dan Horton had some proof, that the best place for fireproof firewall material was on the engine side of the firewall. You might want to look that up. It was just in the last month.

L.Adamson -- RV6A
 
So the vibration/wear issue is one I hadn't actually thought about for FW penetrations, but now that it has come up...seems all the more reason to use steel fittings and such for any FW penetration.(like the firewall)?

Personally I don't think vibration IS a significant concern with firewall-mounted fittings. Mounted ON the engine, maybe, but on the firewall, no. I used aluminum as called out in the plans. Again, my personal opinion.
 
Depends on the material

Somewhere in a different thread, Dan Horton had some proof, that the best place for fireproof firewall material was on the engine side of the firewall.

I purchased some Cerablanket from McMaster Carr. I intend to wrap this in thin aluminum or ss and attach it to the cabin side of the firewall. Dan's test of this material showed good results for the cabin side, however you wouldn't want to use it without wrapping it as the fibers are supposed to be carcinogenic.
 
Personally I don't think vibration IS a significant concern with firewall-mounted fittings. Mounted ON the engine, maybe, but on the firewall, no. I used aluminum as called out in the plans. Again, my personal opinion.
What drives this is the loading that the fitting sees, not the location.
 
FIREALL

Take a look at planeinnovations.com for the stainless airboxes and firewall penetration fittings. Pricey but worth it.
 
if the fuel fitting through the F/W is connected to a fuel line directly to the engine driven fuel pump it is my opinion that aluminum is fine provided you support the fuel line rigidly somewhere between the fitting and the pump while allowing plenty of slack for vibrations. I used a couple of adel clamps with doublers on the F/W to isolate the vibes from the engine to the fitting. Although for my setup I have a solid alum line wrapped in firesleeve going from the alum F/W fitting to my fuel flow sensor to the engine pump with the adel clamps holding the flexible fuel line to the firewall after the flow sensor. All my fuel and oil lines are wrapped in firesleeve.
 
Couple comments.

Will an aluminum bulkhead fitting survive a fire? Quite possibly yes. An engine compartment fire will follow airflow, so if the fitting is located in some out-of-the-way corner of the firewall, it probably won't get very hot. In the hot spot however, it will melt.

The steel fitting is fireproof and you get a fatigue bonus. The price difference is about $3.50 (AN833-6). How often do you buy a sure thing for $3.50?

Regarding stainless vs aluminum heater boxes, my experiments agree with the observations on the planeinnovations.com site. Lifespan of a sheet aluminum firewall component is measured in seconds when placed in the 5" square (25 sq in) hot spot of a firewall burn test. Little more price penalty, $65 vs $98 for stainless. That's 33 wasted dollars if you never have a fire. You'd probably pay $3300 to close that 2" hole in the firewall if things go to ****.

Unsized ceramic insulation encapsulated in foil is a safe cabin side firewall insulation, "safe" meaning it will not ignite, unlike so many really dumb choices. A similar insulator placed on the engine side also protects the firewall structure itself. The use of aluminum rivets and aluminum structural angle becomes moot.
 
Couple comments.

Will an aluminum bulkhead fitting survive a fire? Quite possibly yes. An engine compartment fire will follow airflow, so if the fitting is located in some out-of-the-way corner of the firewall, it probably won't get very hot. In the hot spot however, it will melt.

The steel fitting is fireproof and you get a fatigue bonus. The price difference is about $3.50 (AN833-6). How often do you buy a sure thing for $3.50?

Regarding stainless vs aluminum heater boxes, my experiments agree with the observations on the planeinnovations.com site. Lifespan of a sheet aluminum firewall component is measured in seconds when placed in the 5" square (25 sq in) hot spot of a firewall burn test. Little more price penalty, $65 vs $98 for stainless. That's 33 wasted dollars if you never have a fire. You'd probably pay $3300 to close that 2" hole in the firewall if things go to ****.

Unsized ceramic insulation encapsulated in foil is a safe cabin side firewall insulation, "safe" meaning it will not ignite, unlike so many really dumb choices. A similar insulator placed on the engine side also protects the firewall structure itself. The use of aluminum rivets and aluminum structural angle becomes moot.

I can agree with all of this. Might even change my fuel fitting through the firewall.

What I'd really like to know more than anything, is statistics or testing of a FWF engine/compartment fire in which the fuel (100LL/Mogas) has been removed after a few seconds, but the fire has to be sustained by engine oil, and most likely not atomized, as it is with a modern day oil burner (furnace).
Oil flames can get up in the 3000 F. range too. But with most of it sitting in a pan below the engine, it certainly wouldn't be optimal for combustion, as with a flame thrower test. But.............I'm assuming this.

I do take airplanes and fire seriously. I believe I've already mentioned it on this forum...........I do live next to an airport. Six months before my house was built, a near new Commander (only 341 hrs.) crashed just across the street due to a failure of an exhaust pipe fitting. This is interesting because the fuel lines remained in place, but the fuel vaporized. I've copied below:

A few years ago, a Bonanza ended up with just a engine mount, door, wheel, and vertical tail laying against the street behind my home. Was about 1/2 mile away though. It was consumed by fire after a cartwheel, when the plane couldn't gain & sustain altitude.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


NTSB Identification: FTW98FA325 .
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
Accident occurred Saturday, July 18, 1998 in WEST JORDAN, UT
Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/1/1999
Aircraft: Commander 114TC, registration: N61174
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
The pilot had washed the airplane and said he was going to 'take it around the pattern.' Shortly after takeoff, witnesses heard the engine backfire, heard a muffled explosion, and saw flames and smoke coming from the engine area. The engine was 'sputtering' as the airplane descended and collided with terrain in a residential area. The stainless steel shroud around the turbocharger was scorched and discolored. The main fuel line showed signs of high heat distress, but had not been breached except where it attached to the separated engine.. The exhaust pipe was separated from the turbocharger, and the clamp that held it in place was broken. According to the metallurgist's factual report, there was a brittle transverse fracture of the circumferential tensioning band near one of two resistance spot welds, and had propagated to both edges of the band. There were preexisting cracks at both of the spot welds. The airplane had accrued only 343.1 hours since manufacture.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

A brittle fracture of the clamp that joins the exhaust pipe to the turbocharger. The pipe separated and hot exhaust gases escaped into the engine compartment. The engine lost power due to the high heat vaporizing fuel in the fuel line. Factors were inadequate quality control by the clamp manufacturer; the pilot's intentional maneuvering of the airplane to avoid houses and personnel, and the lack of suitable terrain on which to make a forced landing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

L.Adamson - RV6A
 
What I'd really like to know more than anything, is statistics or testing of a FWF engine/compartment fire in which the fuel (100LL/Mogas) has been removed after a few seconds, but the fire has to be sustained by engine oil, and most likely not atomized, as it is with a modern day oil burner (furnace).

This is an enticing argument, Larry. I suppose that one strong possibility for a persistent oil fed fire results from installations with CS props, where the prop governor line or a fitting thereon fails (Hence the Lycoming AD to remove any and all aluminum fittings in this line). You can shut your fuel off killing your engine, but your prop governor is going to keep pumping oil out of your engine unless you can get your windmilling prop stopped - quite difficult to do, as I recall from those who have tried during flight test with engine in cut off. I think it is quite easy to imagine a loose fitting making a nice fine oil mist which would combust quite readily and with maximum heat potential, not unlike the oil burner in my basement.

I would not assume that shutting off fuel valves will automatically diminsh or extinguish all petroleum fed fires.
 
oil fires

I think it was Reno 2008 that one of the Sanders Sea Furies blew the engine and had what looked like a bad fire. The flames looked like they reached half way back to the tail. I got a chance to look at the airplane afterwards and listened to the pilot who was C J Stevens. He was amazingly casual about it, said "it was just oil-no big deal" I did not even see any burned paint on the side of the airplane where the fire was. Home heating oil is a kerosene related product-much different than engine oil.
 
No statistics to back it up, but I'd venture the most common cause of oil fires is engine case rupture. We've all seen the photos; seems like most connecting rod failures knock a hole in the case.

This from the NTSB report on what is perhaps the best known RV8 inflight fire:

Metallurgical examination revealed that the #2 connecting rod fractured in two places due to fatigue at the rod end resulting in release of the rod from the crankshaft......Post-crash examination revealed holes in the upper engine case and disintegration of the #1 piston.

A case rupture or a failed oil line will pump the entire contents of the sump into the fire unless you manage to stop the prop. The only exceptions would involve an inoperative oil pump.

The fire itself would be forced-draft. Air velocity would vary with location as it passes through the engine compartment, ranging from roughly 1x to 0.2x aircraft velocity. Aeroshell 100W has a flash point of 548F. I'd guess surface temperature of the exhaust pipes at the ports would be around 1200F. That would also be location of the lowest air velocity, so it wouldn't be like lighting a match in a windstorm.
 
In flight fires

I'm thinking steel firewall fittings.

My only experience with in flight fire is a friend of mine who took off, pulled the power back on a R182 on downwind, heard a back fire, and almost immediately had evidence of fire. He turned the fuel off, but in his haste, he missed the detent and fthe fuel flow continued.

As soon as he realized he had a fire he dived at the runway and landed right in front of the fire station. As soon as they landed he and his passenger bailed out. The only injury was scraped knees from tripping over portable intercom wires. The fire dept had the fire out in seconds. the floor aft of the firewall and the passenger door were burned through. The fitting was cracked on the fuel inlet to the carb.

Any thoughts on adding stainless in the cowl air outlet area???
 
I think all these posts are making a stronger point for adding a fire supression system rather than which type of fitting is better.
 
Fire prevention is my key with these small planes. If a big (fuel or oil) fire breaks out - particularly in the cockpit, you're screwed. Use a parachute.
 
Good Idea!

I'm thinking steel firewall fittings.
Quote trimmed
Any thoughts on adding stainless in the cowl air outlet area???

Yes, I still have time and can live with a little extra weight forward of the wing.
 
Couldn't help but notice the fly swatter in the background. Is that on the minimum equipment list?

Paint booth tool. BTW, in Alabama we call that a "fly flap" :)

Is that stainless, and what thickness? Looks really nice.

Stainless, the usual .019", and it ain't nothin' but some sheet metal and pop rivets.
 
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