What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Bar versus Sheet

DragonflyAero

Well Known Member
Can anyone tell me the difference in properties between aluminum bar and aluminum sheet of the same thickness? I mistakenly made a part from sheet that was supposed to be made from bar, and will replace it as recommended by Vans, but have been unable to find anything that describes the difference, and am still curious.

Thanks!!
 
The bars spec'ed is AB6. Not for sure but I think the sheet is 2024.

Maybe a primer in exactly what these numbers are would help me!!
 
go to <aircraftspruce.com>
search "aluminum"
click on "aluminum properties"

This lists the various alloy designations (e.g. 2024), heat treatments (e.g. T6), etc.
 
Thanks Bob. So it looks like the specified AB6 bar is hardened more than the 2024 sheet probably was. This is the flap actuator plate, so I don't want to take any chances.
 
Tried that first. Apparently I don't know how to ask the question. :confused:

Google "aircraft aluminum alloy specifications" try the aerospace metals link.

You will find more than you want. Asking the right questions are the first step, then there is understanding the answer. :cool:

Learning to understand both is nirvana!
 
Use the force..............................google it.

Or use your construction manual (Section 5 specifically)

It describes the part nomenclature system

AS - aluminum sheet
AA - aluminum angle

3 - 2024-T3
6 - 6061-T6

AA6 would be 6061-T6 aluminum angle
 
Thanks everyone!!!

I don't particularly want to become a metallurgical engineer but I do want to build a safe airplane. The Aircraft Spruce info was very good from a layman's perspective.

Happy Holidays!!!!!
 
2024-T3 sheet has an ultimate tensile strength of 63,000 psi, and a yield tensile strength of 42,000 psi.

6061-T6 bar has an ultimate tensile strength of 42,000 psi and a yield tensile strength of 35,000 psi.

This data is from MIL-HDBK-5H.

Dave
 
Interesting David!

That would seem to indicate that the part I mistakenly made from sheet is actually stronger than the spec'ed part from bar stock. Could grain play into this in any way? Grain is lengthwise on the bar but was crosswise on the sheet part.
 
Use the material the designer chose unless you understand all of the characteristics of the design and material. 6061 T6 may not have the tensile strength of 2024 T3, but that doesn't mean 2024-T3 is better for the application.
6061 material standard has some superior qualities.
 
Last edited:
Use the material the designer chose unless you understand all of the characteristics of the design and material. 6061 T6 may not have the tensile strength of 2024 T3, but that doesn't mean 2024-T3 is better for the application.
6061 material standard has some superior qualities.

I agree, 2024 is stronger but is also more brittle and prone to cracking, 6062 is softer but way less likely to crack. This may be why they chose the 6062 for the application?
 
I agree, 2024 is stronger but is also more brittle and prone to cracking, 6062 is softer but way less likely to crack. This may be why they chose the 6062 for the application?

You have to be careful about that. 6061-T6 is more ductile than 2024-T3, which is more ductile than 7075-T6, but that doesn't mean that 6061 is less prone to failure/fracture/fatigue, it just means that it can likely take a repeated load at a higher percentage of it's strength for a given number of cycles. The higher strength alloy usually has better fatigue resistance/strength for a given STRESS, thus you never see primary structure or major fittings on commercial or military aircraft made from 6061, 6063 or other soft alloys; 2024 and especially 7075 are the order of the day, because the part can be made smaller/lighter.

The real reason for Vans using 6061 bar and angle for most of the bigger fittings is that 7075 and 2024 bar and especially angle is hard to find long lead time) and really expensive, it's just not worth the cost penalty to make the part from thinner 2024 or 7075 angle.

Just for giggles I looked at Aluminum, 1/8" thick, 1 inch leg angles on mcmaster. 6061-T6 is $3.22 a foot, 2024-T351 is $22 a foot, and 7075-T6 is $19 a foot. That's a very extreme price difference, but most of the systems fitings on RV's are analyzed by TLAR methods ("That looks about right") so there really isn't much benefit to using higher grade materials when you can't really justify making the part thinner because of lost stiffness or frankly, a flimsy appearance.

Edit; I looked at Mil-HDBK-5, the (outdated but still useful) bible of material properties for the aero industry. _Generally_ for 6061-T6, you'd expect a fatigue failure (in say, a round bar in tension) after 1M load cycles with a stress of 20,000 psi, with 7075-T6, you expect failure at the same number of cycles at 30,000 psi. So you should expect 7075-T6 to give equivalent service life at about 50% higher stress, that means (warning, math) you can use about 1/3 less material if using 7075 (in a strength limited part, some parts are designed primairly for stiffness not strength). Stress concentrations and things like non-room temp conditions might change that a little, but now you see why big $ airplanes are made from 7075, not 6061.
 
Last edited:
All interesting and good stuff, but I will restate.... Use the material called out by the airframe designer (Vans)....
 
All interesting and good stuff, but I will restate.... Use the material called out by the airframe designer (Vans)....
While certainly a choice that will not lead you astray as a blanket statement that just doesn't hold I would say. As pointed out the major reason 6061-T6 in extruded form (bar stock among those) is used over 2024-T3 is simple availability and cost. So without knowing what the part is going to do you can't say that 2024 sheet of the same dimensions won't work.

I suspect from the various brackets and such the builder is left to fabricate there are few where the material differences between 6061 and 2024 would prove to make one unacceptable particularly in any thickness that sheet stock is provided.

But, if the factory said replace one must assume they have a reason and, without the engineering data they used to come up with that rational I'm ill-equipped to argue the point.

But as pointed out the strength of 2024 and 6061 as very similar and other characteristics might drive one to chose one versus the other (price, availability, weldability being some).

Some critical fitting parts, for example the aileron hinge points, are made of 2024-T3 on the RV-10 while other key parts on other designs (Rear spar carry-through) are made from 6061-T6.

IIRC the rear spar carry through on the RV-4 (older design) was fabricated from 6061-T6 bar stock while the same part on the RV-10 is formed from 2024T3 Sheet. Why? Because the RV-10 parts are punched from sheet with a punch press and 2024 sheet is much more common that 6061 sheet.
 
Last edited:
While certainly a choice that will not lead you astray as a blanket statement that just doesn't hold I would say. As pointed out the major reason 6061-T6 in extruded form (bar stock among those) is used over 2024-T3 is simple availability and cost. So without knowing what the part is going to do you can't say that 2024 sheet of the same dimensions won't work.

I suspect from the various brackets and such the builder is left to fabricate there are few where the material differences between 6061 and 2024 would prove to make one unacceptable particularly in any thickness that sheet stock is provided.

But, if the factory said replace one must assume they have a reason and, without the engineering data they used to come up with that rational I'm ill-equipped to argue the point.

But as pointed out the strength of 2024 and 6061 as very similar and other characteristics might drive one to chose one versus the other (price, availability, weldability being some).

Some critical fitting parts, for example the aileron hinge points, are made of 2024-T3 on the RV-10 while other key parts on other designs (Rear spar carry-through) are made from 6061-T6.

IIRC the rear spar carry through on the RV-4 (older design) was fabricated from 6061-T6 bar stock while the same part on the RV-10 is formed from 2024T3 Sheet. Why? Because the RV-10 parts are punched from sheet with a punch press and 2024 sheet is much more common that 6061 sheet.
My comment was directed at the OP, not intended as a blanket statement so no argument here.
Sometimes, you don't have the luxury. My Fiat spar caps did not test to any standard, the engineers are long dead and gone, and no engineering data is known to exist. We matched up material as close to the material test results as we could, and settled on 2024 T4. Not really a surprise..., it is a very versatile alloy.
 
Last edited:
The other desirable property of 6061-T6 that has not been mentioned is superior corrosion resistance. It is universally used on boats and other applications where the aluminum is out exposed the environment.
Alclad coating, anodizing, and other treatments can help 2024 somewhat, but still not desirable in harsh exterior environments.

Not sure a flap bracket has an especially harsh environment compared to the rest of the airplane, assuming it would be primed and painted, that would warrant using 6061. Much more likely it was a cost/availability choice in the design. I probably would have just stuck with the part you made from 2024-T3 and made sure it was primed.

As a reply to your very original question about the difference between bar and sheet, for the same alloy: They typically have different heat treat processes. Bar is probably 2024-T4 if it is really thick, or 2024-T351 if it is thinner. Sheet is 2024-T3. Each process is a bit different, but provide the same, or close enough to the same end properties that the distinction is unimportant for engineering purposes. For example, IIRC, the T4 designation is naturally aged, slowly over time. This is important for thicker material. T3 is aged at an elevated temperature. The T351 compared to T3 has an extra step where they warm the material while stretching it just a little, to stress-relieve it. This is important if the bar is going to be machined into a different shape, so the part doesn't warp. But it doesn't matter if the bar is going to be used at full thickness for the whole part. All these have similar strength properties.

As an additional side note, it is AMAZING to me how much variability there is in the published strength data for 2024 alloys. Mil handbook 5 is the definitive source for MINIMUM properties for engineering design. And there is some mark-down in their strength values for conservatism depending on the use and environment. But manufacturer's spec's on their own products are substantially higher. Example, 2024-T3 yield strength in mil-hdbk-5 is 42K psi, whereas Alcoa quotes 48K psi. Thats 15% stronger than the minimum spec! As an engineer, should/would I design assuming the higher strength? That depends......
 
Can anyone tell me the difference in properties between aluminum bar and aluminum sheet of the same thickness? I mistakenly made a part from sheet that was supposed to be made from bar, and will replace it as recommended by Vans, but have been unable to find anything that describes the difference, and am still curious.

Thanks!!

Bill,

Was this for the spacer on the rear spar in the center section near the seat belt attach area?

:confused: CJ
 
The part is the flap motor attach plate, which rivets to the flap actuator channel and becomes the bolt-thru attachment (along with an angle piece) for the flap motor/actuator.
 
Ahhh, I recall that now.

If it was for the spacer, I seem to remember grain direction to be another stipulation in the directions.

Press on!

You are getting there!

;). CJ
 
....As an engineer, should/would I design assuming the higher strength? That depends......

Yes, it certainly does. If you're designing an aircraft which is intended for certification you are required to use minimum properties. Or at least the structural analyst is, in their work.

If it's not intended for certification and you can control the source of the material, you can design for that material. But if you can't control the source, prudence suggests that you design to the minimum properties if it's an aircraft.

If it's a flashlight (I've seen them advertised as made from aircraft aluminum) it probably doesn't matter so much.

Dave
 
Yes, it certainly does. If you're designing an aircraft which is intended for certification you are required to use minimum properties. Or at least the structural analyst is, in their work.

If it's not intended for certification and you can control the source of the material, you can design for that material. But if you can't control the source, prudence suggests that you design to the minimum properties if it's an aircraft.

If it's a flashlight (I've seen them advertised as made from aircraft aluminum) it probably doesn't matter so much.

Dave

Exactly right. In addition to controlling the source, it may require a coupon test that is representative of the specific part and load path/stress distribution.
I just wonder if MIL-HDBK-5 deserves to be updated with better specs that more accurately reflect what the sources are providing. Leaving 15% on the table really hurts sometimes, especially if you are retro-fitting a new component and trying to exploit margins/conservatism in the original design to allow higher loads. Loads prediction is better nowadays (CFD, FEM) so with the higher confidence in the loads, we can push the design some.
But again to your point, we would need to establish the strength of the original material in that case, and surely MIL-5 is the only safe bet unless you do a sample test.
 
The data given by manufacturers (err, Alcoa) is frequently average data whereas the data in mil-5 and mmpds is the values that either 99% or 95% of samples would be higher than (the one used depends on the criticality of the structure.

Responding to earlier posts; 6061 sheet is VERY common... Just not in airplanes.

And... 2024-T6? I don't think I've ever seen that... Maybe 2040 or something?


Exactly right. In addition to controlling the source, it may require a coupon test that is representative of the specific part and load path/stress distribution.
I just wonder if MIL-HDBK-5 deserves to be updated with better specs that more accurately reflect what the sources are providing. Leaving 15% on the table really hurts sometimes, especially if you are retro-fitting a new component and trying to exploit margins/conservatism in the original design to allow higher loads. Loads prediction is better nowadays (CFD, FEM) so with the higher confidence in the loads, we can push the design some.
But again to your point, we would need to establish the strength of the original material in that case, and surely MIL-5 is the only safe bet unless you do a sample test.
 
Actually 6061 sheet aluminum.........

Responding to earlier posts; 6061 sheet is VERY common... Just not in airplanes.
And... 2024-T6? I don't think I've ever seen that... Maybe 2040 or something?

IS common on airplanes. Several of the Canadian kit manufactures us 6061-T6. Zenair and Murphy aircraft use it almost exclusively.

It is lower cost and much more corrosion resistant than 2024 and as long as the aircraft is designed for it, it's plenty strong.
 
Mil-HDBK-5 was replaced some years ago by MMPDS, metallic materials properties development and standardization, as a part of the govt plan to get out of he standards business.
 
IS common on airplanes. Several of the Canadian kit manufactures us 6061-T6. Zenair and Murphy aircraft use it almost exclusively.

It is lower cost and much more corrosion resistant than 2024 and as long as the aircraft is designed for it, it's plenty strong.

Sonex uses 6061 almost exclusively, and Joe Norris there is happy to point out that all of those DC-3's parked on the east side of Whittman are all 6061 and have been sittign there for a very long time....
 
Thanks Paul,

Sonex uses 6061 almost exclusively, and Joe Norris there is happy to point out that all of those DC-3's parked on the east side of Whittman are all 6061 and have been sittign there for a very long time....

I had forgotten about Monnett's designs, even though I have built and flown a Moni Motorglider. And I didn't know the DC-3 was all 6061.
 
I had forgotten about Monnett's designs, even though I have built and flown a Moni Motorglider. And I didn't know the DC-3 was all 6061.

I think the DC3 predates the XXXX alloy numbering system, but it wouldn't be surprising, Gooneys aren't exactly svelte... :)
 
Back
Top