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New Garmin Panel Mounts: GTN 650 / 750

I am on dialup so my initial attempt to see this system was a failure. Personally, I see no need to "upgrade." My 430W works great for a VFR pilot and I could fly GPS or ILS approaches if I had to. I also have a 1988 S-10 Blazer with 270K+ miles so my view on things may not be the norm.

I will take the position that we will not see a flood of upgrades from the 430/530W units.
 
Where is the certifed IFR GPS only

In my opinion, with all the great experimental radios and displays from MGL, Dynon, AFS, Grand Rapids, etc., what we really need is just a basic certified WAAS GPS source. I wish someone would bring that to the market.
Bill Greenley
RV-10 Empennage
 
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Greenley said:
In my opinion, with all the great experimental radios and displays from MGL, Dynon, AFS, Grand Rapids, etc., what we really need is just a basic certified WAAS GPS source. I wish someone would bring that to the market.
Bill Greenley
RV-10 Empennage
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Garmin GNS-400W, or the BK KLN-94. Not sure if the KLN is WAAS capable. However with a GNS-400W, once you've added a NAV/COM/ILS, you've spent just as much as the 430W. Unless you want to abandon NAV/ILS functionality, which as near as I can tell... you can pretty much do and still be a capable IFR platform.
 
Captain Avgas said:
In my early opinion the Garmin GTN will be a very disappointing release for most builders in the Experimental category.

Essentially the GTN 650 (effective replacement for the GPS/NAV/COM 430W) has a recommended price of $11495 and I would expect that for this new product there will not be too much of an initial dealer discount. At the moment you can buy a new 430W for as little as $7160 which will perform the same basic GPS/NAV/COM functions as the GTN 650.

You can add a remote Garmin GTX 32 transponder to the GTN 650 for a recommended price of $2495. Or you can add a stand-alone Garmin GTX 327 transponder (that can currently be purchased for $1638) to the 430W.

It seems you can't add the remote audio panel Garmin GMA 35 to the GTN 650 (GTN 750 only). But even if you could the Garmin GMA 35 remote audio panel has a recommended price of $2995. This compares with the stand-alone Garmin GMA 340 audio panel that can currently be purchased for $1200.

So if I read the info correctly you can have:

1. A Garmin 430W with a stand-alone GTX 327 transponder and a stand-alone GMA 340 audio panel for $9998.

2. A Garmin GTN 650 with a remote GTX 32 transponder and a stand-alone GMA 340 audio panel for $15190

3. A Garmin GTN 750 with a remote GTX 32 transponder and a remote GMA 35 audio panel for $22485 (gulp!!!).

Admittedly the eventual dealer prices for the new GTN and remote accessories might be a bit better than the recommended prices but as I said earlier I wouldn't be expecting too much discounting in the early days (years).

At any rate the new GTN 650 with transponder and audio panel is up to 50% dearer than the equivalent 430/transponder/audio panel configuration. And that's a very hefty price increase for what is mostly just additional touchscreen bling.

It's Garmin...it's a monopoly...they currently have no real competition in the certificated GPS/NAV/COM market (they bought out the only real competition and buried them)...we shouldn't have held out any hope for more functionality at the same price with the 430 replacement.

One day a real competitor will come onto the market and I suspect there will be a lot of us with long memories.
Click to expand...

Let's not forget that there are other options for XPDRs, too...e.g., Dynon's remote XPDR for use with Skyview.

I, for one, am looking forward to the companies making EFIS/EMS units for the experimental market expanding their offerings to really compete with Garmin.
 
Looks like its still the 430 for me.

This settles it, and in a way it is good that it will be cost prohibitive for most of us. It will keep the 430s in use (and supported) for years and hopefully lower the price on them.
 
In the avionics world it's not very often you get to glimpse into the future and then make your decision.

For me, that's exactly what the GTN does. It shows me the next generation Garmin GPS and where they're going to be committed to in the coming years.

I love technology but this one isn't for me. I'm glad I've seen the GTN now because it makes my pending decision for a 430W much more easy to stomach. If I hadn't seen the GTN, I'd be living on pins and needles wondering if I moved too quickly and waiting for the next generation of GPS.

I'm not a fan of touch screens in turbulence or having all your functionality and interfaces tied into one box (GPS, Transponder, Audio Panel, Nav/Comm, Charts, etc). If anything they've taken complexity to an entire new level for installation, operation, maintenance, and troubleshooting. That's a level I don't care to achieve.

Phil
 
Phil;526528 said:
I love technology but this one isn't for me. I'm glad I've seen the GTN now because it makes my pending decision for a 430W much more easy to stomach. If I hadn't seen the GTN, I'd be living on pins and needles wondering if I moved too quickly and waiting for the next generation of GPS.

Phil
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I agree Phil. I have hated my Blackberry Storm since day one (business provided). Maybe Garmin is better at touch screens, but my fingers simply don't do well on it--sitting at my desk. I can't imagine a touch screen in the cockpit. Gee, if Garmin continues support, and prices come down, maybe I can afford to bump up to a 530? :)

I have heard complaints about Garmin not supporting the 480, etc. Does this mean that navigation updates are not provided, or does it have to do with service? What are we really talking about when we wonder if Garmin will continue to "support" the 430/530?
 
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Phil said:
I love technology but this one isn't for me. I'm glad I've seen the GTN now because it makes my pending decision for a 430W much more easy to stomach. If I hadn't seen the GTN, I'd be living on pins and needles wondering if I moved too quickly and waiting for the next generation of GPS.
Click to expand...

The 430 & 530's are just too "blocky" resolution wise, for my taste. I discovered that, years ago, when I purchased a Garmin 296 hand-held with a much more pleasing screen. My current 696 runs with 480*800 pixels versus 320*234 for the 530 series, & a measly 240*128 for the 430.

The new Garmin panel mounts run at 600 * 708, or 600*266 for the smaller unit. That...........I like!

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Touch screen.

If you've ever actually used touchscreen avionics... It's actually pretty sweet. I never thought I would be a fan until I added another type/model to the list. Garmin obviously put a lot of thought into the anchor points for your fingers because thats exactly how I (and I'm sure others) use it. You don't poke at it, but you steady your hand with a few fingers and either user your thumb or other fingers. Once you get the hang of it (I can still use it effectively at 7 G's) it's really pretty nice, and extremely fast. I still don't have the money for this stuff though, and am excited at the prospects of the 430's coming way down.
 
car gps

Try using your auto gps going down the road. If you like the touch screen then this unit might work. I have to stop to set up my auto gps. But then thats a old man thing.
 
Some of the replies about touchscreens and the comparisons to tinya@@ cellphones keyboards make no sense to me. I've got the Aera and I used it in the rt.seat of a 421 last summer for about 20 hrs and several of the trips had some turbulence. Granted I was'nt flying and trying to run the Aera but It was yoke mounted because the 421 owner said I could go with him when he had trips last august. He wanted to test his "cellphone fingers" on the touch screen. He bought his after one trip and I mounted it on rt. yoke to get my impression and I found it to be just as good as anchoring yourself to the "grab bar" some think exists on the 430/530s
 
Tactile buttons and knobs

I'm going through my instrument training. One of the things my instructor has drilled into me is to keep your scan going. If you need to adjust something, I put my hand on the device that will be adjusted (knob or button), make a change, glance over and see if that change was the result you wanted. With a 430/530, I can feel the buttons and knobs without looking, all the while keeping my scan going.

Let's say I'm nearing the FAF, and approach hands me off to the tower. With a standard audio panel or a 430/530, I can switch COMs or activate the standby frequency just by touch. With the GTN devices, I have to take my eyes off the scan, look at the screen, and possibly navigate to the right place in the menus to make the change. I don't want my eyes off the instruments at that point, especially when I'm still in the soup.

I agree with others, I don' think this will have much uptake in the experimental market, at least until the 430/530 is not for sale anymore and only then if the price comes down in the same ballpark as the 430/530.
 
Tactile feedback

Touch screens have the benefit of much broader flexibility than physical buttons to support complex human-intuitive user inputs (pan & scan, pointing to something, dragging something over...). However, a fundamental limitation with touch screens (at least the current generation of touch screens) is that they lack tactile feedback. The user therefore has to rely more heavily on vision. And this greater need for visual attention to the device can pose a challenge and increase user workload under a heavy multitasking environment, like driving in congested traffic, or flying an instrument approach. And an unsteady platform (a rough ride, turbulence) can further exacerbate the problem.

These issues are well understood in industry, and are generally considered as trade-offs when selecting a particular technology for a new design. BTW, it's interesting to note that newer technologies are already starting to supersede touch screens as primary user input devices to get around this problem. One such technology is voice command. Another technology that is still a bit more exotic is haptic touch screens, that can actually emulate various types of tactile feedback. Wouldn't surprise me if Garmin's skunk works is already working on such things toward their next generation of avionics (???).

For now, whether a conventional touch screen to replace physical buttons is a net benefit or net detriment to a piece of avionics like this, personally I can't say because I've never flown it. I'd reserve judgment, but I'd certainly hold off even considering equipping my airplane with one of these until I've had some first hand experience flying with one.
 
New Garmin

Garmin is already in the works for Voice command on these new systems, it just isn't active yet?.
 
As a primary Garmin user for my avionics, I hate their monopoly in the business. It is too bad there isn't a REAL competition for their certified IFR system. The idea that I can not replace the battery in my 430 and have to send it in for large $$$$ is a good reason that I would jump ship in favor of competition.
 
What I want to know is how long before Amateur-Built aircraft are allowed to fly IFR with non-certified instruments. I'm sure the Dynon, GRT, MGL systems out there are the equal, performance-wise, to the Garmin systems. And any of the non-certified systems are better (IMO) than the steam gauges they replace. Heck, require redundancy if it's deemed necessary... Two Dynon's or a smaller one with the basics for backup. Since we're already allowed to fly non-certified aircraft VFR with non-certified equipment (a lot of which makes some certified VFR aircraft look like children's toys), it seems pretty silly that we aren't allowed to fly IFR with modern equipment that's easily as good, if not better, than the minimum required equipment to fly IFR.

[edit] It seems i've been misinformed and you may be able to fly IFR with non-certified equipment in homebuilts... If so, my mistake, but that makes it even more ridiculous that someone would want to pay the Garmin tax to install more than a handheld GPS in their panel. I love my Aera, at $800 it was the best bang-for-the-buck at the time. But $22000 for something 4x the size with a radio and transponder built-in? I really wish I had that kind of disposable income.
 
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First. I don't believe you need certified GPS in route but you do need it for the approach, also I wonder if there will be a UPGRADE from the 430W to the 650? There's a large market for that, they did it with the 430 to 430W, if not Ill stay with my 430W as long as they support it.
 
Adam said:
First. I don't believe you need certified GPS in route but you do need it for the approach, also I wonder if there will be a UPGRADE from the 430W to the 650? There's a large market for that, they did it with the 430 to 430W, if not Ill stay with my 430W as long as they support it.
Click to expand...

As far as I've been able to determine, an experimental aircraft can fly IFR (enroute or approaches) with non-certified equipment. It is up to you to determine if the navigation equipment is appropriate to the planned approach. There is no requirement in the FARs for the equipment to be FAA approved. I know this has been debated in several threads here over the years.

Reference CFR 91.205.

The more important question is whether you feel safe flying in actual IMC with the equipment you have installed in your airplane. What are your personal minimums? Are you comfortable flying a WAAS GPS approach down to 200 feet off the deck?

Legal in a homebuilt? Yes.
Safe? Your call.
 
It's official. Garmin has move the entire GNS line from their GPS/NAV/Comm section to the Discontinued section on their web site. They will probably just sell off existing stock now and use remaining parts for spares/service.

For those that think the new GTN line is expensive, consider this:

In 1998 Garmin introduced the GNS-430 with a list price of $10,995.
In 2007? Garmin introduced the GNS-430W with a list price of $11,295.
In 2011 Garmin introduces the GTN 650 with a list price of $11,495.

Unless you benefited greatly from the late '90s dot com boom-before the bust, I think $11,000 then was a lot more money than $11,500 now. Only time will tell if resellers will offer the same level of discounts with the new products.

Having flown behind a GNS-430 and then the 430W for the past 11 years, I have full confidence that the GTN line will supplant the GNS line as the new industry standard. I certainly plan to install a GTN-650 rather than the previously planned GNS-430 in my 10. There are so many "under the covers" improvements & features in the GTN line that will never be include the GNS line.

For those waiting for competition for Garmin, there is Bendix/King and their KSN 770 that was announced back in 2008. That unit is still not shipping three years later and now is effectively obsolete. Garmin was founded by ex-King Avionics (now Bendix/King) engineers that were probably frustrated by the luddites at King that I?m guessing would also have decried things like touch screen interfaces. Through their lack of innovation and vision, they lost the avionics market.
 
I'm still seeing the GNS 430W in the GPS/NAV/COM section at Garmin site
I did see the GNS 430 in the discontinued section.
??
 
This is interesting. On one computer, the GPS/Nav/Comm page only list the GTN line, on another it list the GTN and the GNS-W units. Looks like different servers in the server farm have different content.
 
Refresh the cache....mine shows only the new models as active products. That sure did not take long!!! Farewell 430/530!!!
 
From an AOPA article:

"Garmin officials say the company plans to continue selling new 430/530s until the current stockpile of parts is gone—a process they expect to take about two years."

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2011/110324garmin_long-awaited_430_530_successor.html

but from another article

"Garmin will continue manufacturing GNS 430s and 530s."

http://www.ainonline.com/news/singl...-new-touchscreen-navcoms-wow-aea-crowd-29183/

So who knows? As long as the databases are there, and they continue to support it as needed (software fixes), that's okay by me...it'll give me ten years to save up for whatever expensive replacement they come up with by then.
 
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Non-Certified Approach Equipment?

craigvince said:
As far as I've been able to determine, an experimental aircraft can fly IFR (enroute or approaches) with non-certified equipment.
Click to expand...

Is there a company that currently manufactures/sells GPS approach-capable and/or NAV approach-capable equipment that is non-certified? By "approach-capable" I mean systems that when flying an approach capture/display complete lateral AND vertical guidance information provided for WAAS GPS or ILS approaches...
 
WhiskeyMike said:
I mean systems that when flying an approach capture/display complete lateral AND vertical guidance information provided for WAAS GPS or ILS approaches...
Click to expand...

I think the typical "highway in the sky" feature would fit this description.
 
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Adam said:
First. I don't believe you need certified GPS in route but you do need it for the approach, also I wonder if there will be a UPGRADE from the 430W to the 650? There's a large market for that, they did it with the 430 to 430W, if not Ill stay with my 430W as long as they support it.
Click to expand...

If your SOLE means enroute is GPS, it has to be certified. However if you have VOR capability, you can use a GPS as your PRIMARY backed up by VOR.
 
Aircraft spruce pricing for experimentals, with harness:

650: $10,295 with harness
750: $14,675

chunk o' change, not exactly as low as had hoped for the experimental crowd...


Phil Barnette
Salt Lake City
RV-10, finishing... and finishing... and finishing
 
rocketbob said:
Anyone know what the street prices are? Not the list price.
Click to expand...

Looks like Aircraft Spruce has the GTN 650 (11-09702) for a $2K premium over the GNS-430W -10.2 AMU vs 8.2 AMU.

For the GTN 750 (11-09703), the premium over the GNS-530W is $2.5K -14.6 AMU vs 11.9 AMU.

Since you have to search for the units and they are not yet listed on any pages, I guess this is all subject to change.
 
If you get the breakdown from ACS it looks like this : 650 = $8,395
Wiring Harness = $1,900

Yep, I was quoted the above breakdown. Harness must have some goodies I don't know about. Can't be sold without the harness.
 
typically you're required to purchase premade harness wih the garmin panel nounts - the 43W0 is 8225 WITH harness

Phil
 
Spruce is showing it as coming with a harness, antenna and database included...

Still, too expensive for what I want. I'll stick to a non-WAAS -430.
 
Voice command

float208 said:
Garmin is already in the works for Voice command on these new systems, it just isn't active yet?.
Click to expand...

Oh, cool! I hadn't heard that. Where did you hear/read that?

So is that feature planned to be supported even on the initial units sold, just not until a later time via a software update when it's ready?
 
Mike S said:
I think the typical "highway in the sky" feature would fit this description.
Click to expand...

It?s my understanding that for the HITS-capable systems, the information that drives where the "pathway" boxes appear in space comes from the EFIS company's own internal GPS data bases, and that for an ILS final approach the lateral information is simply an extension of the runway centerline. So if you're flying an ILS approach the pathways may not be accurately depicting the designated lateral/vertical tracks for the approach. This is especially true if there is an arc or other ?wrinkle? in either the lateral or vertical track due to terrain or obstacle avoidance requirements.

I?m not sure if any of the current HITS-capable systems accurately depict WAAS GPS approaches. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can contribute on this. You would still need an onboard WAAS GPS (w/RAIM) to provide the necessary accuracy for the lateral and vertical guidance. Some EFIS company?s offer these features, but it appears that EXP HITS-capable systems are still falling short of providing a fully capable alternative for certified ILS/WAAS GPS approach boxes. But I?m happy to be corrected? :rolleyes:
 
Some pics from the Garmin booth at AEA

I lucked into an invite to the Aviation Electronics Association trade show here in Reno today, and had the chance to spend a few minutes playing with the new line-up. (Display included: G600, GTN750, GTN650, GMA350) Here's a couple pictures, with some comments below:

The gear was in demo mode, but much of the functionality was operative. First is a full panel display with SV on the left of the 600, terrain on the right of the 600 and on the 750. HSI is set up for an intercept to a direct to leg that I set up after a little fumbling around. Pop-up traffic is on the 600 as well.
Garmin%20panel%20terr.jpg


Next one has the full page traffic on the 750...different nav set-up, this pic was taken earlier than the first one:
Garmin%20panel%20TIS.jpg


Here's a pic of the data card at the display:
Garmin%20info%20card.jpg


Some impressions (caveat, my VFR RV has a classic Dynon, a 396, and a basic Garmin stack. I've not flown behind a 430/530, but I fly airline glass at work, so all this is strictly opinion, value unknown! ;)).

The displays were phenomenal...really! I like the buttons on my 396 and have not played with an Aera more than once or twice, but for this touch screen novice, the touch screen interface was really superb. Sensitivity of the touches just felt good, and I was able to move around fairly well. That being said, as has been said about the G1000, getting to know this equipment will be really important...there is a dazzling amount of info, and each page has menus and multiple options. It seemed pretty intuitive, but becoming a Jedi on this will take some time (a labor of love though!)

Moving through various displays was at times easy, and at other times felt a little cumbersome, but I chalk some (most) of that up to only getting 15 minutes or so to play. In addition to the touch screen commands on the GTN boxes, there are buttons on the 600 for pilot interface, so there's a lot to play with at first blush. It'll be up to each individual to determine if they prefer the touch screen on this equipment, or the tactile buttons on other gear, but overall it sure was nice.

This display had the remote transponder and audio panel, and the GMA350 was there for display purposes. The remote audio panel I played with popped up on the 750 and was easy to operate. I also mashed a few buttons on the 350, and it had a really nice feel too. Same decsion on audio panels will apply...tactile buttons that are always there to see and touch, or pop-up on-screen audio selections.

It was pretty cool to play around a bit, and I figured everyone watching this thread would want a little PIREP (albeit limited). I was definitely in Brantel and Vern heaven (and many others' here!). Had about three hours in the "candy store"...just wish I could afford some candy! :D

One neat little scoop from the WeatherWorx booth guys. I asked about XM on iPads, and they said "later this year"! Woo Hoo! They also said to wait till the end of the year to buy an iPad 3 (they said due out by year-end). Faster processor and...the biggie...a sunlight readable screen! Hopin' its all true!!

Cheers,
Bob
 
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You did better than me, I couldn't get past the door.

Seems strange when the GPS display is bigger than the PFD, all in all that would make for a stellar RV panel.
 
"street price"

Aircraft Spruce (U.S. site) is listing the GTN 650 at $10,295, including harness. No listing for the GNS 430.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A finishing kit
(Stein waiting for instructions)
 
Speculation

rvmills said:
One neat little scoop from the WeatherWorx booth guys. I asked about XM on iPads, and they said "later this year"! Woo Hoo! They also said to wait till the end of the year to buy an iPad 3 (they said due out by year-end). Faster processor and...the biggie...a sunlight readable screen! Hopin' its all true!!
Click to expand...

Well, I'm hopin' it's all true, too. But beware of any speculation when it comes to Apple product deliveries, including features or release dates. I'm a former Apple engineer and a current iOS developer. Trust me when I say anyone at a small developer like WeatherWorx is highly unlikely to have any inside information about a putative iPad 3, especially this far out.

Inside Apple, there are certainly product roadmaps, but the company has a fully-staffed, ex-military security team, which has a rich history of spreading misinformation inside the company and then tracking its arrival in the public. I personally know people who have lost their jobs over such leaks, so I wouldn't count on anything you hear from the outside, as it's likely to be wrong or at least inaccurate.

But, yeah. It's fun to speculate!

--Stephen
 
Sig600 said:
You did better than me, I couldn't get past the door.

Seems strange when the GPS display is bigger than the PFD, all in all that would make for a stellar RV panel.
Click to expand...

The layout at first seemed a bit overkill to me too...but with all the various functions of the GPS display, it was actually nice to have the real estate for touch screen manipulation. It was kind of like a 696 on steroids...though that might be a poor analogy. But you are right, this would be an incredible RV panel. Then again, so are the offerings from Dynon, MGL, GRT and AFS...what a selection! My wife has already locked up the checkbooks and thrown away the keys! :rolleyes:

fatherson said:
Well, I'm hopin' it's all true, too. But beware of any speculation when it comes to Apple product deliveries, including features or release dates. I'm a former Apple engineer and a current iOS developer. Trust me when I say anyone at a small developer like WeatherWorx is highly unlikely to have any inside information about a putative iPad 3, especially this far out.

Inside Apple, there are certainly product roadmaps, but the company has a fully-staffed, ex-military security team, which has a rich history of spreading misinformation inside the company and then tracking its arrival in the public. I personally know people who have lost their jobs over such leaks, so I wouldn't count on anything you hear from the outside, as it's likely to be wrong or at least inaccurate.

But, yeah. It's fun to speculate!

--Stephen
Click to expand...

I don't disagree Stephen...it was definitely just speculative scoop material. Still hopin' it pans out!

Cheers,
Bob
 
WhiskeyMike said:
It’s my understanding that for the HITS-capable systems, the information that drives where the "pathway" boxes appear in space comes from the EFIS company's own internal GPS data bases, and that for an ILS final approach the lateral information is simply an extension of the runway centerline.
Click to expand...

Well, that may be true for some systems, but for the ones from the company I'm most familiar with, it "ain't necessarily so" as Gershwin said...

mcb
 
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mburch said:
Well, that may be true for some systems, but for the ones from the company I'm most familiar with, it "ain't necessarily so" as Gershwin said...
Click to expand...

Matt, I'm happy to learn that Garmin may take a different approach with respect to the source data for its HITS feature. Assuming that we?re talking about the G3X system, could you provide more information on how Garmin handles this? Thanks.
 
WhiskeyMike said:
Matt, I'm happy to learn that Garmin may take a different approach with respect to the source data for its HITS feature. Assuming that we’re talking about the G3X system, could you provide more information on how Garmin handles this? Thanks.
Click to expand...

G900X also has HITS.
 
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