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Is there a specific point in this kit where I will stop making catastrophic mistakes?

Roy25101

Active Member
Right now I am averaging a major mistake every three days. While working on the empennage I have so far ruined a HS skin, mis-cut the rudder ribs because I thought the holes were all evenly spaced, and now I just trimmed too much of the edges off the R-710 Horn Brace so the upper holes to be drilled will be too close to the edge. Each of these mistakes have resulted in a order from Vans. One at almost $200. Sometimes I want to just chuck the whole thing in the can.
 
Well, you have yet to back rivet without putting the rib on the skin, drill your finger, or realize a skin goes over the substructure you already riveted.... It gets better. Best advice is to read ahead in the plans and think about what you will do before you actually do it; practice in your head.

As for overtrimming a piece... masking tape in the final dimension is an excellent way to go. If you are on tape stop and think.
 
Mistakes

Right now I am averaging a major mistake every three days. While working on the empennage I have so far ruined a HS skin, mis-cut the rudder ribs because I thought the holes were all evenly spaced, and now I just trimmed too much of the edges off the R-710 Horn Brace so the upper holes to be drilled will be too close to the edge. Each of these mistakes have resulted in a order from Vans. One at almost $200. Sometimes I want to just chuck the whole thing in the can.

I'm going to say you're there. You've recognized the potential for error and will, no doubt, use that know ledge and experience to avoid future major mistakes.
That said, we all make them throughout the build. Don't let it get you down.
 
Roy. Best thing I can say is just slow it down. You're running a marathon. Don't do anything until it is well calculated and thought out. With time, this will become your mindset and you will make fewer mistakes.
 
I refer to those mistakes as 'speeding fines'. Read the plans, reread the plans, read the plans again. Then do a creative visualisation for want of a better term. Then have a little rest. Repeat this procedure, then tackle the next task. It will get easier with time. At least you don't have to pay to ship your replacement parts to Australia. That really makes you sit up and take notice. Good luck, and remember to try and have fun. That's what it's about.
Cheers,
DaveH
120485:eek:
 
I may be the only one that ended up building 2 rudders, but the first one gave me a bit of practice for the second one. You should see my toolbox. You can't because I don't show anyone!

Good luck and if it is getting you down, it is the about same price to build as it is to buy.
 
Roy:

The -7A fuel tank is connected to the spar via "Z" brackets. After much careful fitting and checking and fitting and checking, I put them on up-side-down and drilled.

Of course, the tank would not fit properly. After dithering, I finally pulled a "Chicken Little", e-mailed Van's help desk, and told them that the sky was falling in. This was on a Friday afternoon.

Sometime the following Monday, I received a message that started: "First off, let's not fall on our sword. You haven't really screwed up until you built 2 right wings..."

Which put is all in perspective, a solution was offered, and away I went again.

Concur with previous posters: keep going, study the plans, take your time.


Best of luck

John

PS Took me 9 years, but the machine has close to 200 hours now...
 
You're OK

Great advice above. I was fortunate to have great mentors. If in doubt, stop and wait for visit from mentor. The internet became my close friend. (EAA hints for homebuilders for one.) Go visit a completed project. Ask for help. Your mistakes are not catastrophic- just assume being on first name basis with the parts reorder dept is normal. My UPS guy became a pal, he was here often! J
 
Thanks for the encouragement. Y'all are a good bunch. And no, I can't imagine having to ship parts to Australia... Wow!
 
If it's any encouragement I ruined the biggest peice of aluminum in everyone of the subkits when I was building my RV-4 back in 1981. I could hardly afford to replace them, and it was very embarrassing to come inside and admit I had screwed up again.
As late as yesterday I had laid out markings on a piece of aluminum for a doubler plate. Remember the old adage about measuring twice and cutting once? Well, I did measure twice (I have learned to do that) and I marked it twice to further refine some measurements. Then I proceeded to cut it on the original measurements! Aargh!!! I should have erased the first set of lines.

The bottom line is that mistakes will continue to happen. Hopefully, they will get smaller in nature over time.

The only way to not make a mistake is to sit on the couch and do nothing. But some of us will consider that a mistake. :)

Hang in there. The rewards are indescribable.

Vic
 
Mentor...YES!

I was fortunate to have great mentors. If in doubt, stop and wait for visit from mentor. The internet became my close friend. (EAA hints for homebuilders for one.) Go visit a completed project. Ask for help. Your mistakes are not catastrophic- just assume being on first name basis with the parts reorder dept is normal. My UPS guy became a pal, he was here often! J
That was most excellent advice, especially the part about the mentor. I don't think I would have made it through my project without having a guy in the area who was building the same kit. We helped each other when the job required two people. Funny (but true) about being on the first name basis with the parts person and the UPS person!
 
"A.I."

Only "A.I" in the future makes no mistakes. Your doing what you are suppose to, "learning". Even at 5% of your mental capacity you have "A.I." beat for now. Keep up the good work, your doing fine. Yours, R.E.A. III #80888
 
I'm in the process of mounting my HS and VS on the fuselage. For at least the 3rd time in this build I drilled into my hand. So if you're a slow learner, like me then buy band aids and dont measure your progress by the size of your scrap pile.
 
To be fair, the instructions on the R-710 are horrible. I would have made the same exact mistake if I hadn't by chance stumbled on a build thread here on VAF regarding the 710 edge distance issues.
 
Let me make you feel better:D

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Let's see:

- VS spar, elevator spars (probably could have been used), and two fuse bulkhead channels - all victims of oblong countersinking holes. Really, really must backup the workpiece you're countersinking;)

- 3, yes 3, trim tabs (could have been used, but my OCD wanted perfect bends)

- aileron skins that I happily dimpled away on the wrong side

- baggage door frame that began to crack at several dimples while riveting

- flap control horn that I drilled with a slight mis-alignment

I'm mostly done with the airframe and onto fiberglass, which, while stinky and messy, is much more forgiving of errors. The good news is that you eventually stop beating yourself up and just shake your head realizing that this is part of the process.
 
You often hear the advice of "do something every day." I think it's more important to take a break. I just re-entered the garage with renewed vigor after a 2-month hiatus. I haven't destroyed any parts since returning, but I'm still finding mistakes in the pieces I'd already made.

Slow down.
 
Roy:

The -7A fuel tank is connected to the spar via "Z" brackets. After much careful fitting and checking and fitting and checking, I put them on up-side-down and drilled.

Hehe, I did that as well on my first wing... and I broke two canopies trying to fit them to the frame... and I got to build my HS twice. Things happen. But what really cheesed me off was when I was converting my left outboard wing section to a fuel tank, I had all the ribs fitted and riveted, and then I went braindead and cut the fuel cap hole in the wrong end.
 
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could have been used, but my OCD wanted perfect bends

This is something I have been struggling with. I haven't even finished the rudder or VS on my 10 yet but I've already replaced 5 or 6 parts because of little mistakes. If I'm completely honest with myself, those parts were completely fine to use. The only thing wrong with them is that they weren't perfect. Another builder who stopped by and saw the parts I had replaced even joked about building a second airplane with all of my "mistakes".

I've agonized so much about the little things that aren't perfect that it's actually a lot less stressful for me when I make a real mistake. I hate to have to spend the money on the replacements but it's nice knowing immediately that I need to call Van's and figure out how to fix what I just did rather than obsessing about whether it is good enough or not for days.

So while I can't answer the original question, maybe it will help knowing that it could be worse.
 
This is the card I got from my son last Father's Day - change "hardware store" to "Vans" and it describes me even better:

 
And if there's a left and right to apart that needs to be re-made and Im not paying attention, this stuff about there being a 50-50 chance of making the correct part is nonsense! It's always wrong. If I am paying attention it's 50-50.
 
My dad taught me a really useful trick when I worked for him in his furniture manufacturing business. When you are cutting material off something, make your line, then put a little X on the side of the part that will become scrap, or, in the case of woodworking, the side of the line where the saw kerf will go. Man, has that little tip saved me a LOT of goofs over the years.

Then again, there are the times when I have cut parts too small, more than once... Sometimes I am amazed by how dumb I can be. That having been said, my scrap pile is fairly small, but I always use my scrap pile as the source of aluminum for other, smaller parts. Waste not, want not!
 
Mistakes

You mean somebody else back riveted without the ribs in place? That's hard to believe! Sure is deflating, especially after sitting all those rivets so perfectly...
 
I try to listen to the voice in my head, which says "this is probably right."

If I hear that, I try to stop and come back later. A few minutes or overnight can make a world of difference.

What I really hate is when I'm starting to assemble something I built months before and ... "ahhh, it's backwards, @&#%="
 
I was feeling bad about ruining yet another part and then a guy at the airport said that when he finished his RV, he took his scrap to the scrap yard and got $136 for it.

My current scrap pile includes, among other things, two fuel tanks, an entire horizontal stabilizer and an elevator. Like I said, "among other things."

Dave
RV-3B now on the fuselage (and I really, truly, only want to build one of those.)
 
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Well this is an encouraging thread. I've certainly made my share of dumb mistakes, glad I'm not alone.

My .02$ - I try to always read ahead in the plans so I understand the entire process for a given part. Common sense, I know. But it seems I get into the most trouble when I progress with a part too far and start bumping up to the limits of my understanding. I find I have to mentally stay at least several steps ahead.

I'm definitely not a perfectionist, but I'm adequate. Best advice I've gotten was to 'build on'.

Lars
 
Hey Roy, I am a new builder too, working on the tail kit. I feel your pain brother! I have messed up some aluminum parts from not paying attention to their orientation, maybe because I was tired at the time.

Here's some suggestions that may help.

1. Cleco'ing and assembling parts is non-destructive. Do this part and then double check everything is lining up, and matching up with the plans. Its fun and doesn't ruin parts.

2. Before doing any "destructive" work (like drilling, cutting, or riveting), I will cleco the parts together, and COMPLETELY look over the section and match it up with the plans, and even measure a few spots to make sure I have it assembled correctly. Even though the plans are not drawn at scale in many spots, the number of rivet holes their orientation and part layout are spot on. Tooling holes are also shown on the plans, so align them on your parts with the plans as well. They can make finding orientation really simple.

3. Read the plans and study the work before even going into your shop. Try to visualize what will need to be done and how it fits together and why.

You'll get better as you build, and with experience you end up making better and better "product" as your output. It sucks the first few pieces you build, but you do learn and get better as your skill increases.

Stay with it man! You'll be making high quality work in no time.
 
Winston Churchill has a famous quote that says something like:

"Success is defined as the ability to go from one failure to the next without losing your enthusiasm."

Keep plugging away. The mistakes will get less expensive.
 
I try to listen to the voice in my head, which says "this is probably right."

If I hear that, I try to stop and come back later. A few minutes or overnight can make a world of difference.

What I really hate is when I'm starting to assemble something I built months before and ... "ahhh, it's backwards, @&#%="

A while back someone was talking about working tired, past the point where you should quit. I did that more than once, and on one occasion I managed to rivet the nutplates for the fuel tank access plate on the wrong side. I realized what I'd done and just went to bed...
 
Always always always look at what is underneath before you drill a hole. Make sure it isn't a rib (unless it is supposed to be), a wire, a tube, a longeron (unless it is supposed to be), the engine, a skin (unless etc) or your finger or your helper's face.

Put a blanket on top of any skin over which you are handling a bucking bar.

When you f-up, don't panic. Work the problem. Stay calm.

When you do something that is so stupid you can't believe you did it, and you want to take a ball peen hammer to the entire project, that means it is time to go to bed.

Of course none of these things have ever happened to me. Nope.
 
Hang in there!

Mistakes just happen. I am pretty sure everyone makes some. Just work really slow and every time I "think" things are going so well. I drop everything and go home....next mistake is just around the corner ;)

Most of us are doing every one of these tasks for the first time. We will get better with practice.

I make an effort to fully understand why we make the cuts we do before doing them. I did have to learn that the hard way as well!

Take a deep breath and just keep doing what you are doing. Once things come together its a real great feeling of accomplishment.
 
Not perfect

If at all possible, first, find someone who is willing to help and advise you during your build. A mentor.

Human beings are not perfect - that's impossible. No airplane ever made is perfect. Your and my first Van's aircraft won't be perfect no matter how hard you try to make it so. My second RV build will be a lot better than my first, etc, etc.

So, read the instructions and try to understand what they say. Call Van's tech. support if necessary - I have called them with some pretty ordinary questions and whomever answered the phone there was quite helpful and not condescending - I am grateful.

Some guys spend years building an airplane. I love building but want to fly asap. So, my second RV will be build 'more perfectly' but this one is built somewhere between 'perfect' and 'that is good enough'. Out and out mistakes are placed into the scrap aluminum shelf, new parts are ordered and I 'build on'.

You can do it. Sometimes I just have to walk away from my build and do something else that evening. I try to do this before I make a mistake. Almost always, the plans/instructions are more clear the next day/evening. Best of skill to you
 
Education involves lots of failures. That's how we learn -- by our mistakes.

I know that my build involved numerous do-overs.

Best tool in the shop is a Sharpie pen. Use it to mark up everything as you go to keep your parts organized as to where they are oriented and fitted.
 
And take LOTS of pictures - you'll be surprised how often you'll go back on your computer to look at something to answer the question "Did I do that right?"
 
Yes, but...

"Best tool in the shop is a Sharpie pen."

Likely, this is true - but: second best is a can of denatured alcohol to erase what you just marked up!

I buy the see thru rulers in 18" x 2" and 12" x 1" - generally about 6 ea at a time. these help to visualize the part as you draw it up. When they get scratched up, toss 'em out.

Keep building - there is no other way to get to the end.

Carry on!
Mark
 
After I made a few errors I got smart (ok, less ignorant) and before I started working on a new part, I'd do a VAF search on the part number and or name. Once in a while typing in WD-xxx or whatever would come up with a gold mine of oops' and "how not to" advice. Even when you follow the plans exactly, you will find a rare plans error that can lead to heartbreak. I've been flying the 7 for over 8 years and still remember the emotional roller coaster ride that building brings. All, the lows just make the highs that much better when you finally reach into the box and there are no more pieces left to attach. Keep at it, we've all been there!

p.s. I have much better luck using Google to search VAF, than using the VAF search engine.
 
Make sure your dimples go the right way. Make sure the drill bit that is in your drill is actually the one that you need for the hole you are about to drill. I'm sure I will think of some more.

Again, none of these have happened to me. My build is perfect.

why are my pants burning???:eek:
 
Great advice and encouragement.. Thank you all. I have to admit that I went off to work and did not realize this thread had taken off. The last time I looked there was only one page... Thanks again....
 
This is a great thread!

All I can say is, I've spent 10X more time thinking about how to do stuff during this project than actual metal-manipulation, and sometimes even that creates scrap! But the fun part is cutting up scrapped parts to fabricate something new later on. If you focus on the day-to-day learning of new skills, you'll enjoy the process. Even if it costs a little bit extra $ for new parts.

One thing I've learned to do is to sit down and write out the steps for how to complete a task before I actually do it. With the RV-3 the instructions leave much to the imagination, so I plan out my own step-by-step sequences to make sure everything is done in the right order. An exercise like this would help even with the pre-punched kits for getting the big picture of how all the big pieces fit together. I've stretched this project out for going on 7 years, too, so there have been long periods of inactivity in which we were changing jobs or whatever, and my notes have been really helpful for picking up where I left off.
 
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