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Avionics, are they needed from get go?

W

Waterobert

Active Member
I am thinking off building RV-12 next year, so for now I can only plan and read about building options. Since RV-12 can be flown with sport plane licence following Van's plan has to be done diligently in order to get the plane certified as LSA. My question is about avionics. Do you really need $14-15K glass panel to get it certified and fly it ? I am thinking off getting used airspeed, altimeter, tachometer and fuel gauge and add fancy glass panel later. Will I be allowed to fly?
Thanks.
 
You can build it however you want and as long as you can prove it is safe and get a DAR to sign off on it. You will get the same certification every other RV gets - just not the same as those built exactly to plans.

Since it isn't an issue with the 9A I am building I have no idea on how much it makes a difference in value. The panel would be an easy place to save at least $10k and still have a more advanced machine than most of the general aviation planes out there.
 
If you build it as an Experimental you can do anything you want. If you build it as an ELSA you must build it just like Van's. You can change things after the pink slip as an ELSA but it must be built per Van's directions/plans exactly. Of course the options (like second screen, ADSB, auto-pilot, etc.) are options.

Van built his personal 12 as an experimental. Others have built the 12 as an experimental with different engines, etc.

Your choice. Of course as an experimental all those rules like a 40 hour fly off, who can sign off inspections, etc. apply.

Bob
 
The equipment you list won't limit you. But your location is very close to the metropolitan LA area, with lots of class B and C airspace. You'll need a transponder and com radio for those areas, and, by about the time you're done, ADSB-out.
 
Looks like while I was typing all this you received a few answers to your question, but here's my two cents:

If you want to have your RV-12 registered as an experimental LSA, you must build it exactly the way Van's has designed it--including the avionics they have specified. If you want to use different avionics, you can register your RV-12 as an experimental/amateur-built aircraft. It will still qualify as an LSA, and you can fly it with a sport pilot (or higher) license. There are advantages and disadvantages to each licensing category, but the answer to your question is, yes, you will be allowed to fly an RV-12 with minimal instruments. Having said that, I see you live in Southern California. You are going to need a transponder and com radio to access much of the airspace around here, and you are also going to need a way to navigate to stay out of the airspace you aren't allowed to fly in, so you'll probably want GPS, too.
 
bhassel said:
If you build it as an Experimental you can do anything you want. If you build it as an ELSA you must build it just like Van's. You can change things after the pink slip as an ELSA but it must be built per Van's directions/plans exactly. Of course the options (like second screen, ADSB, auto-pilot, etc.) are options.
Van built his personal 12 as an experimental. Others have built the 12 as an experimental with different engines, etc.
Your choice. Of course as an experimental all those rules like a 40 hour fly off, who can sign off inspections, etc. apply.
Bob
Click to expand...

All RV-12s built by individuals are "experimental". What Bob means in the above post when he says "experimental" he means "experimental amateur-built".
To build as "experimental light-sport" it must be built exactly per plans with components purchased from Vans. To qualify as ELSA you must submit a statement of compliance (FAA form 8130-15). This form must come from the kit manufacturer and the kit manufacturer can only supply it if all components come from them.

Looks like several typing at the same time.
 
Thank you guys! I am new to flying and airplane building, so there is so much to learn.
RV-12 is supposed to be fast build, even for inexperienced builder. My concern is the money, it would take me about a year to save up $14-15k for fancy avionics. It's good to know that I have option off spending less and flying sooner. What would I loose if I go cheap on instruments? Coolness factor I suppose, LOL
 
Since you wish to save money there may be an easier way to do so.;) If you have never built an airplane before then going off script may increase your build time by 30%. Consider monitoring the Classified Section of Vans where you can find different sub sections for approximately 20% less than retail. Just a few months back there was a complete RV12 kit still in the Shipping boxes for approximately $57,000.00. For someone who is patient and has the time to travel and is pick up a uhaul he could save thousands.;) Good luck!:)
 
When I built my -9 I had the same thoughts regarding the panel. I discovered that installing a Dynon D180 connected to a Garmin handheld GPS was a LOT less expensive and a LOT more functional. (I have since upgraded to a SkyView and can't say enough about it!)
 
If you want to save money, do not buy a RV-12, buy a used factory-built plane instead. Or do not even buy a plane. Practically speaking, many times it is quicker and safer and less expensive to drive or fly commercial airlines.
On the other hand, if you want a fun toy, buy a RV-12 (or RV-9 if the medical rules are changed). It is fun to build and to fly. Since the goal is to have fun with your new toy, you will not be satisfied with old used instruments. Buy the expensive avionics to have even more fun with. Just make sure the transponder meets the 2020 requirements. In some cases, new steam gauges can cost just as much as glass panels.
 
Waterobert said:
I am thinking off building RV-12 next year, so for now I can only plan and read about building options. Since RV-12 can be flown with sport plane licence following Van's plan has to be done diligently in order to get the plane certified as LSA. My question is about avionics. Do you really need $14-15K glass panel to get it certified and fly it ? I am thinking off getting used airspeed, altimeter, tachometer and fuel gauge and add fancy glass panel later. Will I be allowed to fly?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
i don't know if you're a first-time builder or not, but I was. I can tell you from that point-of-view that one of the most attractive things about the RV-12 kit to me was that I had very little actual thinking/fabricating/customization work to do. As a first-timer, singing from the Van's hymnal helped to de-scarify a very daunting project to an appreciable degree. At a minimum, you would have to start with blank aluminum stock for your panel. You're going to have a big (and probably expensive) set of wiring harnesses to pare down to just the wires you need, and you're going to have to figure out what those are for yourself. They all feed into a electronic junction box that you will probably want to keep, and you'll have to develop a good knowledge of it's inner workings.

In my book, you're chasing a false economy. Save money by looking at a vinyl wrap rather than paint, or consider a used Rotax (that too will force you into E-AB, but in a more benign way) rather than new. Even then, you're going to have to buy the rest of the firewall forward a la carte rather than in the Van's engine package.

My opinion is that the Van's design made every effort to make owner-friendly design decisions that provide an excellent balance between cost and capability. There's a reason that Sporty's has chosen the 12 as their annual raffle plane more than once.
 
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You can buy many completed RVs of different types for much less than the cost of an RV12 kit. You will have CONSIDERABLE work installing steam gauges rather than an EFIS. Depending on how you do that work, you will moderately (for sure) to majorly (likely) affect the resale value of the plane, because redoing all the avionics stuff on a completed kit would be a lot of very unpleasant work. The buyer pool of folks that want a completed RV12 and would consider a save-cost steam gauge version is low ("Hmmmm, what ELSE did this guy save money on?...) I would want many many thousands of dollars in discount value to take that on. I doubt you would even get discounted kit parts cost for the completed plane.

I agree with Dave - go standard on the avionics and save money on a used Rotax. Then you have a 40 hour fly off and your resale will be less - not so much because of the used Rotax but because as an EAB, a buyer cannot do the annual condition inspection themselves (unless they are already a certified mechanic.) When you sell an ELSA to a non builder, they can take a weekend EAA course and then do the annual condition inspection.
 
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Thanks Mel for clarifying! I can't tell you how long I was confused over ELSA vs. SLSA vs. EAB!

Another option to consider is to buy the tailcone/emp kit, the wing kit, the fwd fuse kit and the finish kit. It's always nice to have more than one kit to work on at a time. I've found little gremlins sometimes pop up and you need to reorder a part. Of course you may not have gremlins in your part of the country. If you have more than one kit you can work on something else. Of course sometimes you can skip ahead, but sometimes you can't.

You can always finance the engine and/or avionics. What you've already spent on the kits applies to the down payment and of course can keep your wallet happier.

Rates for financing Van's aircraft are (or at least were when I looked) actually less than for an older Cessna or Piper. The key is either buying or already have bought your engine. Places like NAFCO want to see that 'form' with the engine serial number on it (since I don't have mine yet I can't tell which form that is). Once they see that, they consider it an airplane even if pieces parts are still in the box. Rates are lower when you get to this point since its an airplane according to the aircraft kit financing companies and the term of the loan is longer (up to 15 years).

The pain is in paying the financing, so the less you need to borrow, the better off you are.

Bob
 
I know we're one of the avionics companies so we're biased, but:

As others have said, the concern over the cost of "glass" avionics is probably a false economy.

The Dynon Avionics Kit from Vans is $13,995.

In this is a com radio and a transponder. Unless you are planning on flying only out in remote areas, these are requirements in any airplane. You're looking at $4,000 for these two items if you go another route. Plus, the kit includes all the wiring, and antennas. So $4,500.

Also included is an ELT, which is required everywhere. Additionally, an intercom so you can talk to your passenger, again, all with wiring and antennas. Easy $1,500 there.

The avionics kit also includes all your switches, wiring for the whole plane pre-made, and fuses needed for things like the alternator, flaps, and lighting that has nothing to do with your avionics choice. So another $1,000 there.

So $7,000 of the $14,000 is stuff you will have no matter what your panel looks like.

So really, your "avionics" are $7,000 with rough math.

You can likely get away with just an airspeed, altimeter, compass, fuel gauge, RPM, coolant, and a few more gauges. In the end, those are going to cost you at least $3,000. They are also going to take you a lot longer to install because they aren't plug-and-play like the avionics kits are from Vans.

So in our math, you're looking at maybe a $4,000 delta for a full glass panel against an extraordinarily basic panel, that doesn't have a DG, attitude, VSI, moving map, fuel computer, etc.

While $4K is far from nothing, it's also far from $14K that you may be thinking you can save. Consider the additional functions of that $4K (like a moving map with no subscription costs), and the resale value of the plane, and it's really a lot less.

Finally, you might just fly on the same day, given the extra work and time that will be required to hook up all this stuff in a custom panel that Van's doesn't support. You'll need to make a custom panel, and do all your own wiring, find your own switches, fuses, and more.
 
Leave all your options open as long as you can

Thing have a way of changing over time if you are concerned about the cost, start with the fuselage kit first. Some of the builders don't install the tailcone to last anyway. The wings can be built after the finish kit.
Leave all your options open as long as you can, you may not have a money problem down the road.
If money is still a problem there will most likely be tailcone and wing kits that are not finished you can buy and save enough to help with the avionics.
The Fuselage and finish kit will be behind you and the cost of these kits will go up do to inflation
MY View

Joe D



Waterobert said:
I am thinking off building RV-12 next year, so for now I can only plan and read about building options. Since RV-12 can be flown with sport plane licence following Van's plan has to be done diligently in order to get the plane certified as LSA. My question is about avionics. Do you really need $14-15K glass panel to get it certified and fly it ? I am thinking off getting used airspeed, altimeter, tachometer and fuel gauge and add fancy glass panel later. Will I be allowed to fly?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
dynonsupport said:
I know we're one of the avionics companies so we're biased, but:

As others have said, the concern over the cost of "glass" avionics is probably a false economy.

The Dynon Avionics Kit from Vans is $13,995.

In this is a com radio and a transponder. Unless you are planning on flying only out in remote areas, these are requirements in any airplane. You're looking at $4,000 for these two items if you go another route. Plus, the kit includes all the wiring, and antennas. So $4,500.

Also included is an ELT, which is required everywhere. Additionally, an intercom so you can talk to your passenger, again, all with wiring and antennas. Easy $1,500 there.

The avionics kit also includes all your switches, wiring for the whole plane pre-made, and fuses needed for things like the alternator, flaps, and lighting that has nothing to do with your avionics choice. So another $1,000 there.

So $7,000 of the $14,000 is stuff you will have no matter what your panel looks like.

So really, your "avionics" are $7,000 with rough math.

You can likely get away with just an airspeed, altimeter, compass, fuel gauge, RPM, coolant, and a few more gauges. In the end, those are going to cost you at least $3,000. They are also going to take you a lot longer to install because they aren't plug-and-play like the avionics kits are from Vans.

So in our math, you're looking at maybe a $4,000 delta for a full glass panel against an extraordinarily basic panel, that doesn't have a DG, attitude, VSI, moving map, fuel computer, etc.

While $4K is far from nothing, it's also far from $14K that you may be thinking you can save. Consider the additional functions of that $4K (like a moving map with no subscription costs), and the resale value of the plane, and it's really a lot less.

Finally, you might just fly on the same day, given the extra work and time that will be required to hook up all this stuff in a custom panel that Van's doesn't support. You'll need to make a custom panel, and do all your own wiring, find your own switches, fuses, and more.
Click to expand...

Robert,

Yikes...hope GRT is not reading this! Dynon hit the nail on the head. If at all possible, budget for the Skyview standard package. It is a beautifully integrated system and meets the 2020 ADSB compliance requirements. You will not have to stress with the cost of adding a patchwork of components at a later date to meet those standards. From a building, cost, and investment perspective, this would be the way to go.

Btw...I still like my GRT.:D
 
dynonsupport said:
I know we're one of the avionics companies so we're biased, but:

As others have said, the concern over the cost of "glass" avionics is probably a false economy.

The Dynon Avionics Kit from Vans is $13,995.

In this is a com radio and a transponder. Unless you are planning on flying only out in remote areas, these are requirements in any airplane. You're looking at $4,000 for these two items if you go another route. Plus, the kit includes all the wiring, and antennas. So $4,500.

Also included is an ELT, which is required everywhere. Additionally, an intercom so you can talk to your passenger, again, all with wiring and antennas. Easy $1,500 there.

The avionics kit also includes all your switches, wiring for the whole plane pre-made, and fuses needed for things like the alternator, flaps, and lighting that has nothing to do with your avionics choice. So another $1,000 there.

So $7,000 of the $14,000 is stuff you will have no matter what your panel looks like.

So really, your "avionics" are $7,000 with rough math.

You can likely get away with just an airspeed, altimeter, compass, fuel gauge, RPM, coolant, and a few more gauges. In the end, those are going to cost you at least $3,000. They are also going to take you a lot longer to install because they aren't plug-and-play like the avionics kits are from Vans.

So in our math, you're looking at maybe a $4,000 delta for a full glass panel against an extraordinarily basic panel, that doesn't have a DG, attitude, VSI, moving map, fuel computer, etc.

While $4K is far from nothing, it's also far from $14K that you may be thinking you can save. Consider the additional functions of that $4K (like a moving map with no subscription costs), and the resale value of the plane, and it's really a lot less.

Finally, you might just fly on the same day, given the extra work and time that will be required to hook up all this stuff in a custom panel that Van's doesn't support. You'll need to make a custom panel, and do all your own wiring, find your own switches, fuses, and more.
Click to expand...

If you really like round dials?you can select the 'Six Pack" option on the Skyview screen!!
 
Go with Van's

but buy the avionics kit last! If you put in analog gauges (something I really would have like to do) making it E-AB in addition to the fact that a buyer will NOT be able to take the 16-houh course and be able to do the condition inspection himself, you'll save a LOT of blood, sweat, and four-letter words. I watched my hangar-mate spend about 5 months wiring his avionics (same Dynon and GPS I have). It took me only a week to have all the avionics in, hooked up, and working on the first try. And I DIDN'T know what I was doing, just followed the instructions. Buy the avionics last because something will have changed by the time you're ready to do them. I bought mine with the kit and there were several changes before I installed them, with the Skyview coming just after first flight.

That Said, as soon as I got the pink slip I installed and analog airspeed, altimeter, and ball. Yeah, electrical systems NEVER fail!

Wayne 120241/143WM
 
Just another option (however I would highly recommend the Dynon stuff regardless of cost). My friend bought a finished RV12 without avionics and engine at a very reasonable price (Builder probably had sticker shock when pricing a Rotax and Dynon stuff). A Viking engine and some used radio, xponder, and minimal round gauges put him in the air in a few WEEKS, and he has been flying happily with that for some time now. Maybe with the surplus of cash by doing it that way, he has more fuel money, but he flys much more than my friends that have done the ELSA route. Annual condition inspection cost? Come on now, as an A&P I (and others) do them for free quite often just for the fun of it, especially on an RV 12 EAB.
He will receive less if he sells it sure, but his total cost is less than half what an ELSA builder puts out, so why worry about resale?
 
DonFromTX said:
Just another option (however I would highly recommend the Dynon stuff regardless of cost). My friend bought a finished RV12 without avionics and engine at a very reasonable price (Builder probably had sticker shock when pricing a Rotax and Dynon stuff). A Viking engine and some used radio, xponder, and minimal round gauges put him in the air in a few WEEKS, and he has been flying happily with that for some time now. Maybe with the surplus of cash by doing it that way, he has more fuel money, but he flys much more than my friends that have done the ELSA route. Annual condition inspection cost? Come on now, as an A&P I (and others) do them for free quite often just for the fun of it, especially on an RV 12 EAB.
He will receive less if he sells it sure, but his total cost is less than half what an ELSA builder puts out, so why worry about resale?
Click to expand...

I need some help seeing how the math works out for that to be true Don.

The current prices of the basic RV-12 Airframe kit along with the prices list on the Viking web site for the engine and install kits adds up to about $48000. To that still needs to be added all avionics and engine & flight instruments, everything for the electrical system, etc. I think it is very conservative to say that at least an additional $7000 would have to be spent. That totals up to $55000. In round numbers, 1/2 of the current RV-12 complete kit would be about $35,000.
By my math he would have had to have bought the completed RV-12 airframe for only about $5000 for your statement to be true.
 
Well I was basing it on that he wound up flying at $34k, and most of the completions are saying they spent closer to 80k (I can truthfully say on my project I have not had the courage to add up the receipts yet.) The purchase of the completed RV12 minus engine or avionics was under $20k which was a great help of course.

.
rvbuilder2002 said:
I need some help seeing how the math works out for that to be true Don.

The current prices of the basic RV-12 Airframe kit along with the prices list on the Viking web site for the engine and install kits adds up to about $48000. To that still needs to be added all avionics and engine & flight instruments, everything for the electrical system, etc. I think it is very conservative to say that at least an additional $7000 would have to be spent. That totals up to $55000. In round numbers, 1/2 of the current RV-12 complete kit would be about $35,000.
By my math he would have had to have bought the completed RV-12 airframe for only about $5000 for your statement to be true.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks guys

Thank you guys for lots of good information. I think that I will get fancy avionics regardless of the price, since it will make my life easier. RV-12 is supposed to be entry level plane, modest air speed, small economy engine, low operating cost etc. Maybe Van's will offer poor man's option for avionics, just to get more people building it. Flying is not cheap and that is fact off life until then.
 
I built a Searey with a steam gage package for the 912. It cost $900 for sensors and Gage's 15 years ago. By comparison I think the standard Vans package is a bargain.
 
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