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Rear Rudder Pedal install (RV4) and other RV Q's

E

EasyFlyer

I'm New Here
Greetings everyone,

My name is Rob, I go by EasyFlyer
Have been a member for a little while, reading and learning.

A quick back story on me before my Questions,
I have my PPL, 110hrs, all in a 172.
Have not flown as pilot in command for 10 years, all the normal reasons etc.
Years ago I had a single flight in a Thorp T18 that made quite an impression on me and showed me what fun there is to be had in something other than a 172, it really felt like "this is what it should be like!" it stuck with me all these years.

Fast forward a decade, I'm ready to get back in the air. Got my PPL & Medical back, all that's left is currency and what to fly?
(I'm really not interested in renting a 172 again, unless I have to)

For my mission (fun local flights, some cross country, a tiny bit of aerobatics, and Budget!) I think an RV4 will be right up my alley, and what I have been looking at (I did check an RV6, but above my price range, I want to be able to fly the darn thing, not just look at it)

I'm about to go look at a 5th RV4 (3rd that was for sale) and this one like so many has no rear rudder pedals. I'm interested in the pedals so that I could do my currency and transition training in my own RV4?

I've read posts on here regarding rear pedals, but none seem to have gone anywhere? most say they removed the pedals?

How difficult (realistic and time consuming) is the rudder pedal install? (and throttle)

Is it reasonable to buy an RV4, install rudder pedals, (and a throttle) and do my training in it? (insurance company says I need 10hrs dual in "any Vans RV tail-wheel model" to insure me) local CFI says he'll do my training but aircraft must have stick, rudder, throttle in the back, or just use their 172s.

Or I could search for someone to train me on their RV? (I'm guessing thats a big NO...)

Also, would it be ok to store the RV in a carport style hangar and a full spinner to tail cover? or is that just inviting trouble and wear?

Regards,
EasyFlyer
 
Easyflyer,

Most of the stock rear seat pedals in the RV-4 aren't very friendly when you want them out of the way. The rear seat is just too tight and there's no where to put them.

None of the RV-4 rear pedals have brakes.

Jim Winings came up with the idea to build a set of fold-down pedals many years ago. We sell them. They take about 30 minutes to install, and that includes gathering the tools and admiring your work when done. It's a snap, really.

https://www.flyboyaccessories.com/Rear-Seat-Rudder-Pedal-Kit-p/2106.htm

These pedals will fit the RV-4 or the Rockets. They won't work in an RV-8, which has cables beneath the floor, if I recall correctly.
 
Search for Tom Martin on this forum.

Send him a PM and he can be a great resource in Ontario.
 
You can do basically anything you desire. However, that does not mean it would be the best scenario, the safest or the smartest approach.

The geometry of the aft pedals is terrible and does not provide adequate ground control. You can get away with it because it is an RV and they are docile on the ground compared to other aircraft.

You can also get away without the break set up by prior coordination with the person on the front seat.

You can get away with take offs as the visibility and handling improve as the tail comes off the ground.

You may be able to get away with landing but you have to overcome the outside visibility issue, looking at the instrument panel over the instructor, etc.

The fact the you have a person in the back seat makes the handing qualities head towards the more difficult to fly scenarios.

Dayton and I went flying in his aircraft and tried exactly what you want to do. We gave up within 3 landing approaches/attempts. It was very uncomfortable for both of us and we already have RV-4s.

My free advice; go get your 10 hours of dual on a side by side RV. Then buy a -4 and fly the **** out of that. Way safer, quicker and you eliminate the additional requirements from your personal plane. That is what I did and it worked out great.

Good luck.
 
My insurance wanted 10 hours of dual as well. What i did, being a new tailwheel pilot with about 10 hours total tailwheel time in a cub and champ was fly a few approaches from back seat with cfi friend in fromt then moved to front seat and he rode i back. I had no rudder pedals in back so some may consider it risky but the rv4 is easiest tailwheel you will ever fly as long as you are comfortable in other tailwheels and you get used to the speed.
 
RV training

Hi Rob,

I was in a similar situation as you. Building a 7 with no TW time and only about 400 hrs 152/172 time.

My insurance requirement was for min 10 hrs TW with no RV specific requirement. I was unable to find any RV training in our area. After about 20 hrs in a Supercub and 10 in a Citabria I met some RV 3 and 4 builders/fliers at CNC3 Brampton (neither of the 4s had rear pedals). They said I was ready for the RV (I was buying a 4 to fly while building) if I could handle the Citabria.

I flew commercial to Alberta to pick up my new to me 4 and flew it back to CNC3. Certainly some pucker factor in the first few TOs and landings, but 4 years and 450 hrs later I can say the 4 was blast to fly! My 4 handled very nicely with no bad tendencies on the ground or in the air and it is certainly nice to have the higher power to weight ratio with the RV. I consider myself and average pilot and would say if you can handle a Citabria you can handle the 4. The RV is much lighter on the controls, but easy to get used to. It is faster so stay on the ball to keep ahead of the plane till you get comfortable. It is much easier to find instruction in the Citabria than an RV in our area. I sold the 4 a little over a year ago when my 7 was finished. Still miss it...nothing better than the centreline seating and right hand stick IMO.

I installed the foot wells for the back seater in my 4 but not the pedals. Makes it a lot more comfortable in the back. I had stick and throttle in the back. I think that with the back seaters feet being on either side of the front seaters butt it is just too crowded there for pedals.

Good luck! You will love the 4!....just watch the rear CG....gets extremely pitch sensitive the farther back it goes.

Al
 
Have another talk with your CFI, to see if he will adjust his requirements a bit.

The -4 I currently own was built by a non-pilot, who then learned to fly in it. It has what are likely Van's rear seat pedals (no brakes, of course), and no rear throttle. His CFI put him in the back seat, and when he could land the plane consistently using only the rudder pedals & stick, they swapped places for the rest of his training. FWIW, I learned tailwheels (while still a student) in a Luscombe 8A, which doesn't have brakes on the right side. Once I got comfortable landing with just rudder, we swapped seats for the rest of my training.

I find the stock pedals to be most intrusive when I'm doing maintenance. :) With the rudder centered, they only extend about an inch aft of the bulkhead where the passenger's feet would likely rest. Vince's solution should be even less intrusive, and less hassle when doing maintenance.

Having said all that, if you can't find a -4 that you like, don't write off T-18s or Mustang IIs. I've owned a T-18, & flown several M-IIs, and they are fine flying designs. Build quality might vary a bit more (due to the less complete kit) than the later RVs, but not that much vs a -4 or -6.


Charlie
 
Ignore the super hero?s do what Axo said.

I have a 4 with Flyboy rear seat pedals and like Axo have tried to convert people onto type and it is risky especially in cross winds. Yes you can land a 4 in a cross wind without brakes if The component is not to high but there is a point where rudder and tailwheel steering is not enough.

We lost our Wittman Tailwind because an instructor put the trainee in the side with brakes in a crosswind and he could not stop the resulting ground loop with just rudder.

One of the guys managed to break the chain on the flyboys rear seat pedals twice. Whether it was because we were fighting each other on the controls I don?t know but because of his tendency to over control I had to correct his imputs.

It is far safer to get converted on a side by side then move to a 4.
 
I was in a similar situation 6.5 years ago..

It looks like you're already getting good answers from the gang here.

If you don't have recent pic time I'd encourage you to get current and a tailwheel sign-off in something like a champ/decathlon/170 in whatever tailwheel aircraft and experienced instructor you find locally. The money and time will be well worth it and the great majority of your experience will apply to your RV flying.

Once you have that step complete.. find an RV transition trainer OR if you're fortunate [very lucky] you might be able to find a flight instructor w/RV experience that'll train you in your newly purchased aircraft.

You're on the right track and flying an RV is worth it! Good luck and I hope you share your flying adventures and the RV magic here in VAF.

Stan
 
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4 back seat

Axel?s advice is what I did and it worked out pretty well.
Tailwheel checkout in a Supercub, then couple of hours in a friends RV6. Then onto my own 4. Love it!
I would like to check my son out in it but there is really no easy/safe way to do it. He can fly it fine from back there using an iPhone for instrumentation but takeoffs and landings wouldn?t work.
 
Thank you all for the great insights,
I took the long drive and checked out a potential RV4, went up for a flight, spent a lot of time looking the aircraft over, compression check, bore-scope the cylinders (check valves, head, pistons, barrels) inspection panels, etc etc.

The plane checked out ok for the most part, small few snags here and there, one mid size and one big one (later in a new post I think)

Had an interesting flight in the RV, among may things, paid attention to the rear seat room and controls potential. I now get why so few RV4s have controls in the back, its certainly doable, but you have to really want to do it and fit in the back. I'm not giving up, but need to learn a whole lot more.

Easy Flyer
 
Training, training, training

I have recently traveled this path (starting as a rusty PPL with 150 hrs in Cessnas and Pipers 20+ years ago). Here?s what I did (and some gained wisdom).

1). Got recurrent in a 172 with an instructor. 3hrs was plenty for a refresh, BFR, and local airspace familiarization.

2). Get a tail wheel endorsement. I did this in an American Legend cub with Bruce Bohannon near Houston (highly recommended). 5 hours covered this. I believe a Citibria/Decathalon/Champ would work just as well.

3). Get transition training. I did 4-5 hours with Bruce in his RV8 (he has full rear controls and instructs from that position).

4). MORE transition training in my RV-6. I probably flew 10 hours of dual to become fully comfortable (LOTS of pattern work with winds from all quarters on progressively narrower runways). Not cheap but money well spent. BTW: my insurance required 5 hrs of dual in type.

5). I am still learning but very comfortable flying the RV6 alone or with passengers.

Note the stepwise progression. Start with something familiar (172). Then a tail wheel trainer (Cub). Then a Van?s level performance tailwheel aircraft RV8). Finally my specific RV6. I learned a lot (*more than I expected* :) ) at each step. YMMV.

Be safe. One moment of inattention or poor judgement can result in significant expense or heartache.

Be safe!
Peter
 
Hi Peter,

Thank you very much for your input,
After the RV4 flight (checking out a potential one to buy), it seems that the transition like you describe seems to be a good (more comfortable) idea for me, vs modifying an RV4 and trying to re-train in it.

I think I'm going to go get some 172 time, in an old faithful and familiar airplane, then I'll seek out some tail-wheel time.

It also gives me more time to keep looking at/for more RV's

I will keep my options and mind open.

Easy Flyer
 
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