Actual build and operating cost of RV-3B?

Hello,

I'm getting ready to start building my first RV but still deciding between the -3B and the -8. I have flown in the back of the -8 twice so I have a good understanding of its' flight characteristics but hear all the time the -3B is the "pilots" RV!

I'm wondering how much "cheaper" the -3B is over the -8 in terms of operation, insurance and build costs. The -3B kit is about 1/2 the -8, but what about engines and avionics/instruments? I have more time then money but if the costs are similar, I'd opt for the -8 since it carry's two people.

My missions priorities are as follows:

1. Get flying! I'd rather have a basic airworthy aircraft then a fancy hangar queen.
2. VFR Day/Night
3. Aerobatics, 300-400m hops around the states.

A few other general questions if you please.

1. I read that RV-3 builders need to limit their aerobatics to the normal category until the wing spar mod is complete. Is this feature standard in the -3B?

2. How well are the -3s plans laid out? I started reading a thread a while back regarding some plans errors. Will this be a major problem for build time?

Thanks for your time and and input!

Hit the RV8... Van's RV3-B is still in the historic stage regarding both plans/parts and for a first time builder would be a great challenge compared to the RV8. Of course the RV7 is the 'Cats Meow' !

My build time

Was 2 1/2 years, yes, there are a few plans errors, but one call to Vans will take care of that. If you can follow directions you can build the -3 its not pre-punched, but that didn't bother me at all. I hope that other -3 builders will chime in on this also.

As for the flying, the -3 will out climb the -8 all day long, I have 160hp in mine, and it will hit redline in level flight. Long trips are not that long. The -3b has the spar mod, so aerobatics are a no brainer, also very fun! It is very light on the controls and super responsive, but not twitchy.

In short, build the plane YOU want to build, not what someone thinks you should build.

If you want to build an airplane for the sake of building an airplane, the RV-3B is very rewarding. (And a challenging first time kit!)

Because your stated number one mission is to GET FLYING, I would definitely recommend the -8. My boyfriend bought an RV-8 tail kit a couple summers ago and had the entire horizontal stab and vertical stab finished in the same time it took for me to get my RV-3B rudder spar built and the skin laid out, cut to shape and filed, stiffeners made, rivet holes laid out, drilled, deburred, dimpled, and backriveted (until I ran the gun off the edge of the backrivet plate, cracked the skin and had to start over again! ) Then there is the subject of building jigs to keep everything straight while you drill the rivet holes in an RV-3B. Van's pre-punched holes make most jigs a thing of the past.

If flying soon is a priority and the cost of finishing an 8 is daunting, there's no shame in buying a flying airplane. You can find some flying airplanes on the market that are priced lower than if you were to build it yourself.

Katie's advice is very solid. If flying quick is your priority, definitely go with one of the later kits. The RV-3B as a first build is not for the faint of heart. Certainly do-able, but it would take much longer a modern kit. And, I had to chuckle at the comment that you just call the factory for advice on the -3B. The only person at the factory that has built a -3 is Van and his recollections from 40 years ago are vague. This forum is the site for build advice specific to the -3. (Of course, the Vans folks are great at helping with generic issues that apply to other models.)

If economics is the driving force, buy. Building makes no real economic sense unless you want a custom airplane. -3s, -3Bs, and -4s are commonly available at great prices.

If you want the fun-est and cheapest RV to fly (we commonly cruise at 165+kts and 30+mpg with the IO-320), go with the -3B (or maybe a -3 with the wing spar mods).

Based on your post, you might consider a -4. It carries two people, reported to be almost as fun and economic as the -3, more are available on the used market, and the kit is a little more advanced than the -3B. Frankly, given your stated criteria, I can't see what the -8 offers to you.

And, as to your original question, how much do you want to pay? With strong scrounging abilities, patience, and a willingness to go with a near run-out engine, you could probably build a -3 with the spar modifications for under $25k. There are lots of kits out there that were never finished that you could probably pick up really cheap. And, what do you need in the panel? Almost nothing! As for build time, we took 26 months to build a "high-end" -3B while working full-time, but we were a team of two and one was an experienced builder.

I typically tell people that the cost of any kit built plane can be broken down into thirds. 1/3 the cost of the kit, 1/3 the cost of engine, 1/3 the cost of the instruments, and 1/3 the cost of everything else. That fourth third means, you will go over budget.

That said, both the -3 and the -8 require engines, instruments, etc. The only real savings is you only have to buy one seat, seat belt, headset, etc. and you don't need an ELT or intercom.

So, there is a false sense of savings by going with a one holer vs. two.

That and what the other -3 builders have said, the quick build kits are worth the extra cost, if you want to get flying quickly.

RV-3 operations

An -8 will probably cost 2x that of a -3, both to build and operate (IMHO). You need an IO-360 with CS prop in a -8 to get best performance, whereas the -3 gets by fine with a carbureted 0-320 and FP prop. That's a 2x building expense difference right there, probably. However, resale value for an -8 wins every time over a -3, as most folks want to go fast with two seats.

After 800+ hours with my -3, the operating cost so far has been gas, oil, and a hanger. The hanger cost is $3600/yr. Gas and oil for 100hrs flying is about $4000.

Liability insurance in a -3 is $200-300/yr. I've owned mine outright from the beginning, so that's all I carry (if I wreck it and survive, I'll fix it or build another one).

I've got an 0-320-E2D, carb, 3-blade Catto. Empty weight is 810#, a little heavy. On a std day at sea level, I'll see 2400fpm Vy. I don't often do the max climb trick because the view fwd is completely obscured by the cowling. Cruise is 150kts 7gph. Max speed on std day 8000ft WOT is 175kts 9gph. I don't often go more than 150kts because there is quite a lot of wind noise in the cockpit, mostly transmitted via the canopy.

Speaking of the cockpit, get into a -3 to make sure you fit before buying a kit. I'm 6' 180lbs, and it's just right - barely. The tip-over canopy is best for getting in and out (the slider looks great though).

My mission has always been max performance at minimum cost. On the single-seat issue, both my kids don't care much about flying with me, my ex-wife certainly doesn't care about flying with me, and the girlfriend loves it that I can fly to her place to see her, but she doesn't want to go flying with me either. Ergo, I'm happy with one seat.

I've thought long and hard about what the next step up in performance might be after a -3, and it's pretty clear that an HR Rocket would be the way to go. But that's six cylinders, fuel injection, two seats, a larger, heavier, more complex airplane. That would get me another 50mph on the top end, and maybe another 1000fpm climb. Maybe. And 2x fuel burn. And higher insurance cost. And more maintenance tasks. And a more complicated annual. The more complicated an airplane is, the more things can go wrong and the more you have to service it. A day VFR -3 is about as simple as you can get, and still see 175kts on the top end.

- Steven
800+ RV-3 hours
(another one last weekend!)

I'm not interested in out right buying for the simple fact I really like working with my hands and this sounds like a fun yet challenging project. I did buy the tool box kit and found it to be very straight forward (pre punched as well).

Why not a 4.

All RV's are great, the best handler the 3, next the 4.......and the 8 is very good too. But if the 3 is your dream but you like two seats as well why not the 4.

Also you can probably buy a flying aeroplane cheaper than you can build it and it will get you in the air quicker.

Jwhallon said:

I'm wondering how much "cheaper" the -3B is over the -8 in terms of operation, insurance and build costs. The -3B kit is about 1/2 the -8, but what about engines and avionics/instruments? I have more time then money but if the costs are similar, I'd opt for the -8 since it carry's two people.

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I know, this is kind of an old thread. However; it has had me thinking. I'm not sure any of this helps answer your question but may be another data point that helps your decision...

It seems pretty common for the RV-3B to be considered a "toy" airplane - something to fly around the pattern or to breakfast at the next airport. I've experienced this A LOT. It really confuses me. I suspect it is due to seating only one person. I fly all over the country with my -3B (Daisy). Thousand mile cross-countries are no big deal. She takes me on some magnificent camping trips to backcountry airstrips, hauls my skis on skiing trips, takes me to visit friends and family, and even lets me get upside down and do formation work. She does all this faster and more efficiently than most other airplanes (I flashed by a fiend in his Skylane a few weeks ago and the shock hasn't worn off yet - he is still talking about how fast "that little RV is"). I've even started thinking about a Bahamas trip.

As far as cost goes, I suspect one can spend as much money as is available no matter what aircraft is being built - the "while I'm at its" and "might as wella's" are just too much for most men to resist, never mind our inability to distinguish between want and need. I have a very hard time believing that an -8 would not cost more to build simply considering that it is physically larger and requires a larger engine (an -8 is a fantastic aircraft though).

Everyone is different when it comes to operating cost but mine is pretty low. Daisy lives in my three car garage at the airpark on which I live (E98 - with my car), insurance is about $700/year, and I burn about 7/gph of uncontaminated auto fuel. I fly about 150 hours per year so that puts operating cost somewhere around $5/hr for insurance. $25/hour for fuel (when near home). Maintenance/Oil/Tires is harder to calculate - purely a guess but I'll say about $5/hour. For a total of around $35/hour - obviously no 'rebuild fund' or anything like that included. Not sure how to extract a storage cost from the cost of my home. Hangars go for about $250/month around here so I guess that would add $20/hour to my numbers.

I have to admit that there are about 3-4 times each year when I really wish I had another seat. At those times, I console myself by remembering that I am not paying for fuel and insurance on every other flight of the year for those rare times. However; I'm a single guy - this single seat issue may be a non-starter for married guys with a wife that likes to fly!

As an aside, Daisy going into/out of my garage is a magical bending of the laws of physics to my friends. Without moving my car, Daisy just spins right into place thru a 16' door. I suppose I should video it sometime.

Option

If flying is the priority and lowest up front cost is an issue, the -3 is the way. However, one day, you will want to sell that -3 and when you do, you will be wishing it was a -8. I've had a -3 and it was the closest thing to a bird that I have ever experienced. As a matter of fact, the experience was so remarkable, that after 3-4 hours of flight, I REALLY wanted to share it with my friends. I just never could get them to hold on to the wing while I took off. I have since shared the -6 with them but the -3 isn't anything like it. I may one day get another -3 but only after having either a two or four place ready and available.
Good luck and wish you well in your journey. It's fun no matter what.

Huh?

YellerDaisy said:

I - this single seat issue may be a non-starter for married guys with a wife that likes to fly!

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Only if he tries to Bogart it!