Van's Air Force
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Secondary Door Latch
- Thread starter Bart
- Start date
First of all if the door is shut properly it will not open even after an explosion. If you feel the need for a secondary to insure the door is closed properly I would have it operate with the original handle. A second latch not operating on the original handle could mean the difference between first and third degree burns.
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johngoodman
Well Known Member
I would encourage you to not make statements like the "door latches aren't reliable." I'm pretty sure there haven't been any reports of doors leaving the aircraft if they were properly shut. There's lots of areas of Van's airplanes that have created "cottage industries" to either improve upon them or make certain things easier to build. Certainly nothing wrong with that. And the doors could be one area where someone wants a different mechanism or stronger feeling of security. That's OK, too.
It is my opinion, and my opinion only, that I am speaking about here. With over 700 hours in the RV10 myself, I have not seen any problem. As long as they are constructed properly, have a tight fit, and are checked for front and rear latch engagement prior to takeoff, they seem to always stay closed until we open them after landing.
Vic
It is my opinion, and my opinion only, that I am speaking about here. With over 700 hours in the RV10 myself, I have not seen any problem. As long as they are constructed properly, have a tight fit, and are checked for front and rear latch engagement prior to takeoff, they seem to always stay closed until we open them after landing.
Vic
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Hi Dennis...
....to the best of my knowledge, two -10's have lost a door each, in flight. One airplane is from Georgia, the other happened in South Africa.
The Georgia airplane lost the right door and it impacted the right stab with enough force (during cruise), that it bent the right stab backwards and kinked the left side of the fuselage. It was disassembled and taken to Florida where a new tailcone was added. I spoke with Jesse Saint, the man who did the work.
Van has since provided a secondary safety latch that mounts near the center of the lower door edge that is supposed to address this issue, but as Vic said, if the two pins are engaged front and rear, they're not coming open,
Best,
....to the best of my knowledge, two -10's have lost a door each, in flight. One airplane is from Georgia, the other happened in South Africa.
The Georgia airplane lost the right door and it impacted the right stab with enough force (during cruise), that it bent the right stab backwards and kinked the left side of the fuselage. It was disassembled and taken to Florida where a new tailcone was added. I spoke with Jesse Saint, the man who did the work.
Van has since provided a secondary safety latch that mounts near the center of the lower door edge that is supposed to address this issue, but as Vic said, if the two pins are engaged front and rear, they're not coming open,
Best,
The Van's demo plane lost a door also or severely damaged it before anyone else had a chance to lose theirs. I had to open my door after the explosion blew the windows out. If the doors can withstand an explosion like that there is no pressure in flight that could be worse.
Just to clarify....
Again....
The incident you are talking about was with a prototype door and prototype latch mechanism. It occurred long before any kit builders were ever shipped any parts for installing doors. The latch mechanism failed in a way that made the pins not properly extend, even though the handle was in the latched position.
For obvious reasons the design was changed.
There are major differences from the production door and latch that has been shipped with all kits since kit # 1, and the ones on that airplane at that time.
Kind of makes it an apples to sour grapes comparison in my opinion.
I installed the stock Vans secondary latch system (after I'd already painted the aircraft). With 65 hrs flown so far, I like it and am glad I installed it.
When the secondary latch is clicked into place the primary door pins engage with the fuselage properly every time. The secondary latch also provides a quick, convenient way to secure the door during windy conditions on the ramp (pax and baggage loading).
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
Yep, nor have some rescuer have to figure out the extra latch.
As Todd said, might make the difference between first and third degree burns.
BTW, for those doing the door mod, take a look at this thread, might be of interest.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=58783
For those going to OSH, you should be able to get a first-hand look at Sean's latch that integrates into a complete single-lever solution. If you're not in urgent need to complete it right now, going to the show could give you first-hand views of a few different designs.
Tim
Tim
I'm a fan of Sean's design. Works well to solve issue I had in drawing door in to allow closing with seals that were not compressing easily. Had some bowing of lower door at cruise ie 1/8 inch that generated a draft. That is solved. It provides a very solid safety latch. No way this door could open in flight. To those that are concerned with opening the door quickly this is a perfect solution. I installed this on a flying aircraft with no big issues.
This seems to be the best of everything.
Here's what my legs look like two weeks after the accident and getting out using just the standard door latch and seat belt. Do you want to spend more time in the fire screwing with a secondary latch?
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PainterJohn
Well Known Member
I just installed a set of secondary door latches in a -10 that in my opinion were not needed. The Vans design functions just fine.. IF the doors are fit properly to the cabin and the Vans latch is installed correctly!!!
I was told that this additional latching contraption would "suck the door in" then allow the Vans pins to engage the latches at the A and B pillar in the cabin door jamb after this thing sucked the door in. I installed them at my customers request, again, i dont think they are needed at all. I have installed doors on alot of different aircraft, cars, boats, motorhomes, houses, safes, paint booths, hangars, combat tanks, etc etc etc.. and i have NEVER seen a need for something like this IF the door is built and installed correctly.. I advised against it, but my customer insisted they be in there, rather than allow a bit more time to make the doors fit better.
Im not sure which secondary latch you are all discussing, Maybe it is Seans's.. I like that it still only requires one handle operation but i think they are an "easy" answer to not installing the doors correctly.
Incidentally this 10 had a set of doors removed and replaced before i ever saw the thing...
I was told that this additional latching contraption would "suck the door in" then allow the Vans pins to engage the latches at the A and B pillar in the cabin door jamb after this thing sucked the door in. I installed them at my customers request, again, i dont think they are needed at all. I have installed doors on alot of different aircraft, cars, boats, motorhomes, houses, safes, paint booths, hangars, combat tanks, etc etc etc.. and i have NEVER seen a need for something like this IF the door is built and installed correctly.. I advised against it, but my customer insisted they be in there, rather than allow a bit more time to make the doors fit better.
Im not sure which secondary latch you are all discussing, Maybe it is Seans's.. I like that it still only requires one handle operation but i think they are an "easy" answer to not installing the doors correctly.
Incidentally this 10 had a set of doors removed and replaced before i ever saw the thing...
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ScottSchmidt
Well Known Member
I was one who did not feel a secondary latch was needed as well, after installing Sean's latch design (Planearound.com) I sure am glad I took the time to put it in. I have discussed this on another thread but it works great and makes closing the door that much easier, the integration into the handle does not make it more difficult or complicating. The Japanese would call Sean's design a Poke-Yoke, it basically means the operator cannot screw up closing the door, it is now mistake-proof. You either close the door 100% correct or it is VERY obvious that it is not closed and needs to be re-addressed.
I've talked Sean into flying my plane out to Oshkosh this year (I'll be going like the pioneers did, in my air-conditioned truck pulling my trailer) and he will give me a 2 day start and still beat me. Anyway, you all will be able to see this latch system there as I'm sure others will have it too.
Anna had her first flight at 6 weeks old and the latch is just a little more insurance that all is well and she can rest all she wants!
I've talked Sean into flying my plane out to Oshkosh this year (I'll be going like the pioneers did, in my air-conditioned truck pulling my trailer) and he will give me a 2 day start and still beat me. Anyway, you all will be able to see this latch system there as I'm sure others will have it too.
Anna had her first flight at 6 weeks old and the latch is just a little more insurance that all is well and she can rest all she wants!
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Refer back to Todd Swezey's post # 16 ...
....and see if that doesn't answer your question. Just because the Tomahawk is a certified airplane, to me, means nothing. I've been in 'em...not too impressive.
Best,
....and see if that doesn't answer your question. Just because the Tomahawk is a certified airplane, to me, means nothing. I've been in 'em...not too impressive.
Best,
Normally I don't endorse products, but I did want to followup on this item. I have about 170 hrs on my RV-10 and originally installed the Van's safety latch during the build process. At one point, during an aggressive ground runup with just the safety latch engaged on a hot day, the prop blast twisted the door and the safety latch failed. At that point, I lost all trust in the ability of this safety latch to hold a door on in flight. This was further confirmed after reading a few months ago about a door loss with the safety latch installed. With the flex of the door, there is no way the safety latch is going to work at cruise speeds with the door sticking out an inch into the slipstream (one engineers educated opinion).
During my first annual in May, I bit the bullet and paid for Sean's system. Retrofitting it required deviation from the directions because I had to remove the Van's latch that was in approximately the same spot, but I made it work, and the metal that exists due to the Van's latch gives extra strength to the new solution at the middle of the door.
I can not say enough about the new system. Not only does it make the door much easier to close with my tight seals, it also allows the door to open with just the handle. If you are still in the building process, I would highly recommend that you at least consider this solution.
During my first annual in May, I bit the bullet and paid for Sean's system. Retrofitting it required deviation from the directions because I had to remove the Van's latch that was in approximately the same spot, but I made it work, and the metal that exists due to the Van's latch gives extra strength to the new solution at the middle of the door.
I can not say enough about the new system. Not only does it make the door much easier to close with my tight seals, it also allows the door to open with just the handle. If you are still in the building process, I would highly recommend that you at least consider this solution.
David Shelton
Well Known Member
The Real Problem
I fly one airplane with a terrible door latch. The door has opened several times in flight but it doesn't tear off or creat a flight hazard. Why? Because it's front-hinged.
I'd like to steer the conversation in a new direction for a moment. It seems to me, the real problem has more to do with the top-hinged door design and not the latch. Every top-hinged aircraft that I'm aware of has issues with door loss. While a more reliable latch system helps, it may never eliminate the problem. Perhaps switching to a front-hinged door is the ultimate solution. Has anyone tried this?
I fly one airplane with a terrible door latch. The door has opened several times in flight but it doesn't tear off or creat a flight hazard. Why? Because it's front-hinged.
I'd like to steer the conversation in a new direction for a moment. It seems to me, the real problem has more to do with the top-hinged door design and not the latch. Every top-hinged aircraft that I'm aware of has issues with door loss. While a more reliable latch system helps, it may never eliminate the problem. Perhaps switching to a front-hinged door is the ultimate solution. Has anyone tried this?
