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  #1  
Old 02-17-2009, 11:06 AM
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FresnoR FresnoR is offline
 
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Location: Fresno, CA
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Default Risks of an RV-12 order

What do you think the implied risks of ordering the RV-12 kit are? I have full confidence in Vans and the structural testing that they are doing to the prototypes, but will insurance companies feel the same way? The Zenith CH601XL was successful for years until recently having multiple accidents with the wings folding (still debated however). What type of risks does the -12 purchaser assume with significant design changes in the future?

I really like everything about this aircraft. I suppose it being unproven does worry me and I am looking for a little reassurance.

Thanks,

Rick
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  #2  
Old 02-17-2009, 11:19 AM
JohnF JohnF is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 458
Default Risks Ordering an RV-12

I have complete confidence in Van's. I checked with Avenco and they won't insure the hull of an RV-12 yet, but are willing to insure for liability which is the only coverage I wanted anyhow, and is the coverage I carry on my RV6A.

By the time most of (us) earlier RV -12 builders are pretty well along I really believe all legal/FAA issues will have been resolved.
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  #3  
Old 02-17-2009, 08:40 PM
TSwezey TSwezey is offline
 
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Location: Savannah, GA
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Call Jenny at Nationair and I think she will be able to ease your worries.
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  #4  
Old 02-18-2009, 09:10 AM
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RudiGreyling RudiGreyling is offline
 
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Location: South Africa, Johannesburg
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Van's 30 year history and the fact that they are the most successfull metal kit supplier in the world should play a role. If the insurance company don't know that, then get a better company.

I guess it will be fine, until hopefully never, a problem is identified then it will an "insurance" problem at that stage, depending the fix.

Here in South Africa I got several quotes for my RV7, other kit build manufacturers quoted much worse than my Vans comparitevely, Good Insurance Co know the reputation, they know the planes.

Sorry but I am going to say it: If the potential insurance risk of a potential future structural problem is the only reason for you not ordering, then think again... You should order a RV12 for the what it is, not for what it might not be...

My 2cents, you are not going to be any better of with any other manufacturer on this specific future risk. I'd rather risk it on a Vans

Kind Regards
Rudi
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Last edited by RudiGreyling : 02-18-2009 at 09:18 AM.
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  #5  
Old 02-18-2009, 10:38 AM
okiejohn okiejohn is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 74
Default Zenith Accidents

I have heard the wings folding on the CH601 has been traced to aerodynamic flutter. It seems people didn't tension the control cables to the ailerons properly, and the loose control surfaces went into oscillation and overloaded the wing.

So they are probably a good plane if rigged correctly. And we must be grateful to those pilots when we tension the cables on our RV-12s.

I think the risk of buying the RV-12 now is that it is made of Gold! Van said in AOPA yesterday that the ELSA is going to be $65,000. We have tremendous deflation, everything is getting cheaper by 25%- 50% (oil, houses, cars, aluminum, Euros/ Rotaxes). Gold has been going up fast, so I guess thats what RV-12 pricing is based on.
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  #6  
Old 02-18-2009, 11:10 AM
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Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okiejohn View Post
I have heard the wings folding on the CH601 has been traced to aerodynamic flutter. It seems people didn't tension the control cables to the ailerons properly, and the loose control surfaces went into oscillation and overloaded the wing.

So they are probably a good plane if rigged correctly. And we must be grateful to those pilots when we tension the cables on our RV-12s.
I have also heard Zenith added flaps to the old wing, and did not reinforce the rear wing spar. The added stress of deployed flaps was too much for the original design.

I lost a good Australian friend in a Zenith.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2009, 03:11 PM
Fl Mac Fl Mac is offline
 
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Location: Lakeland Fl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okiejohn View Post
I have heard the wings folding on the CH601 has been traced to aerodynamic flutter. It seems people didn't tension the control cables to the ailerons properly, and the loose control surfaces went into oscillation and overloaded the wing.

So they are probably a good plane if rigged correctly. And we must be grateful to those pilots when we tension the cables on our RV-12s.

I think the risk of buying the RV-12 now is that it is made of Gold! Van said in AOPA yesterday that the ELSA is going to be $65,000. We have tremendous deflation, everything is getting cheaper by 25%- 50% (oil, houses, cars, aluminum, Euros/ Rotaxes). Gold has been going up fast, so I guess thats what RV-12 pricing is based on.

The ELSA model is expected to fly away at a total cost of less than $65,000.


In the above copy of the AOPA article he states the fly-away cost. Do you think he is refering to the SLSA? Unless they really stick it to us on the kits that are not out yet, I can't see $65,000.00.

Emp. $2150
wing. $5480
fuse. $4600
Finish. $6000 estimate
engine $20,000 estimate
avionics $10,000 estimate
fastener kit $250


total $48,480

You can fly away with out paint, but if we add paint.

pro paint job $6,000

total $54,480

What do you want to spend the last $10,500 on?
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  #8  
Old 02-18-2009, 03:42 PM
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Phyrcooler Phyrcooler is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fl Mac View Post
The ELSA model is expected to fly away at a total cost of less than $65,000.


In the above copy of the AOPA article he states the fly-away cost. Do you think he is referring to the SLSA?
I wondered the same thing this morning when I saw that. IF he is referring to an SLSA... WOW That would significantly undercut all the LSA competition. But I don't think that is possible. Even if he could do it on that much (little) labor costs... there would probably be no profit left.

I think that if Van's approves a very basic panel/radio/transponder for the RV-12... you will be able to fly for somewhere in the low-mid $40's K before painting.

DJ
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  #9  
Old 02-18-2009, 03:43 PM
Paul the Overlord Paul the Overlord is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fl Mac View Post
The ELSA model is expected to fly away at a total cost of less than $65,000.


In the above copy of the AOPA article he states the fly-away cost. Do you think he is refering to the SLSA? Unless they really stick it to us on the kits that are not out yet, I can't see $65,000.00.

Emp. $2150
wing. $5480
fuse. $4600
Finish. $6000 estimate
engine $20,000 estimate
avionics $10,000 estimate
fastener kit $250


total $48,480

You can fly away with out paint, but if we add paint.

pro paint job $6,000

total $54,480

What do you want to spend the last $10,500 on?
I hope you are right. I spent a lot of money on the 7A, but decided that I won't do that with the 12. According to an earlier statement from Van, he wanted the -12 to come in under the 7/9 in price. That could have been painted with all the options or something.
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Last edited by Paul the Overlord : 02-18-2009 at 06:38 PM.
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  #10  
Old 02-18-2009, 04:07 PM
Fl Mac Fl Mac is offline
 
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Location: Lakeland Fl
Posts: 156
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I called Van's and got a little information. She said the finishing kit was estimated at about $8,000.00. My $6,000 estimate was a little low. That makes the airframe kit $20,480.00. I asked where AOPA was getting their $65,000 figure from and she did not know. She referred me back to the order form that estimates the airframe at 20k so they are close there and the engine prop and avionics at 30K to 35K. This puts it at 50K to 55K. She thought this was still a good number. I told her to be good to those of us that committed out of faith and that if this thing crept up to 65k she would have a lot of unhappy campers out here.
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