VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

  #1  
Old 08-23-2018, 10:36 AM
F1R F1R is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ____
Posts: 612
Default Water Injection

Does anyone have experience with water /methanol injection on a lycoming?

I am curious about some of the details when it was used in the early 1940's to prevent detonation at increased MP values for short term increased HP requirements.
Was the detonation protection partially from having steam cleaned / no hot spot cylinders or was it 100% from the chemistry change of the air fuel mix reacting with the water and methanol?

I am reasonably sure that some of the Reno air racers have experience but will they speak up?

Does anyone have bore scope photos of cylinders that have been run with the water injection from recent years at Reno?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-23-2018, 12:58 PM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 3,133
Default

No experience on a lycoming, though I did experiment with it successfully on a porsche engine with a home brewed turbo. These are horizontally opposed air-cooled, boxer engines, so similar to lycomings, though different chamber designs and smaller bores.

Water injection works through latent heat absorption. When exposed to heat from combustion, the water evaporates, and as it does so, it absorbs heat. The heat reduction is what reduces the detonation potential. It works the same way that your evaporating sweat reduces your body temperature. Normally combustion heat is reduced to below the detonation threshhold in high load conditions by moving it to the exhaust via retarded timing. Water injection allows more boost or more advanced timing by reducing the combustion heat with water evaporation. It is somewhat offset by the power reduction associated with the water displacing air/fuel mix. I forget the effect mehtanol has on the process, but it is about achieving a similar result without as much power reduction (unlike water, the methanol has energy potential during combustion). Most modern usage is a blend of water/methanol. I used commercial windshield washer fluid in my setup.

Larry
__________________
N64LR
RV-6A / IO-320, Flying as of 8/2015
RV-10 in progress

Last edited by lr172 : 08-23-2018 at 01:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-24-2018, 02:53 AM
F1Boss's Avatar
F1Boss F1Boss is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Taylor Texas
Posts: 686
Default I have used it

Quote:
Originally Posted by F1R View Post
Does anyone have experience with water /methanol injection on a lycoming?

I am curious about some of the details when it was used in the early 1940's to prevent detonation at increased MP values for short term increased HP requirements.
Was the detonation protection partially from having steam cleaned / no hot spot cylinders or was it 100% from the chemistry change of the air fuel mix reacting with the water and methanol?

*Neither. The injected mixture cools the combustion event to a temp below the detonation level.

I am reasonably sure that some of the Reno air racers have experience but will they speak up?

*I raced at Reno with several different setups. One setup also sprayed the oil cooler to help control that temp too. Turned out that the proper ratio of ADI worked better: about 20% of the fuel flow, tho more - 30% - did a better job.

Does anyone have bore scope photos of cylinders that have been run with the water injection from recent years at Reno?
*I never took pictures, but I can say the plugs were always clean.
__________________
Best,
Mark

"Not everyone needs a Rocket. Some folks, however, shouldn't live life without one.
You know who you are."
Budd Davisson, 1997
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-24-2018, 06:49 AM
F1R F1R is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ____
Posts: 612
Default

Boss,

Where did you spray the water/methanol in? Did you have one or two large nozzles ahead of the servo body or 6 smaller lines and a nozzle in each of the intake tubes?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-24-2018, 07:16 AM
F1Boss's Avatar
F1Boss F1Boss is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Taylor Texas
Posts: 686
Default ADI injectors

I tried several methods - the best (which was not REALLY the best) was a single nozzle into the fuel controller. I found that the 550 swoopy intake system (Cirrus type engine) was not really good at putting even amounts of ADI into each cylinder.

Since I have added the DanH round inlets for proper cooling, the ADI system is on the shelf. That system weighed at least 70lbs when full (7gal tank, + 10lb pump).

My next build has a supercharger on a low compression 550 - that I expect to push past TCM parameters - has a 6 point (2GPH each injector) setup so each cyl does get the same amount. I also added a Devil's Own controller to get some sort of control of the spray at lower boost levels, and a lot more at higher levels.

The fuel and ignition are SDS parts.

Using the same cowling shape, I expect to not need the ADI as long as I stay within the TCM power chart (38"/2700/350hp). That expectation might be over the top - could be my system does not care what TCM says about their twin turbo setup.

I am thinking that 42-44" might be OK with the ADI running at 20% of FF (likely close to 45GPH without ADI, but more like 35-38 with ADI), but only experimenting will give me that answer.

Yes - the airframe has been 'modified' to allow the use of such power levels, and it's resultant TAS numbers.

As I have said before - it will be GREAT - especially if it works!
__________________
Best,
Mark

"Not everyone needs a Rocket. Some folks, however, shouldn't live life without one.
You know who you are."
Budd Davisson, 1997
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-26-2018, 07:14 AM
F1R F1R is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ____
Posts: 612
Default

[quote=F1Boss;1283155]I tried several methods - the best (which was not REALLY the best) was a single nozzle into the fuel controller. I found that the 550 swoopy intake system (Cirrus type engine) was not really good at putting even amounts of ADI into each cylinder.

I have added the DanH round inlets for proper cooling. "


Just curiuos if all the new F1 Cowl inlets are round or are they still the rectangular slots previously used? One of the slide show photos on your site show a carbon fiber cowl with round inlets.



And a smuggled photo of the F1 skunk works shop ( location unknown) molds for the hopefully available to all F1 owners new cowls?

Last edited by F1R : 08-26-2018 at 08:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-26-2018, 07:30 AM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 3,064
Default

My dad ran water vapor 'injection' on a '59 Studebaker Lark 6 cylinder. (Newer technology than a Lyc, but only by a little bit).

He always claimed that it improved the gas mileage and performance. I can't verify; I was too young to drive back then. But guess what; you can still buy the technology today! Should work fine on a Lyc; it's only slightly older than the Studebaker.

http://www.watertogas.com/water-gas-injector.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=wate...hrome&ie=UTF-8

;-)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-26-2018, 08:43 AM
F1R F1R is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ____
Posts: 612
Default

I am only seeking a good, safe, quick and effective method to clean out the lead and carbon deposits.

There is a really informative video on the important data collected by a NACA test report from 1944 where they were able to more than double the HP from a V12 by the use of straight water injection. Details are here: https://youtu.be/1PA70pN6zPM?t=4m8s
or start at the beginning for a good bit of background and lead in.

It gets much more interesting when methanol was added to the mix.

I like the Devils Own auto systems that meter proportionately to fuel flow and boost for super charged and turbo charged engines.

However, since I only intend on clean up before bore scope time, I should be able to regulate a single nozzle to flow about 20-30% of my 1 liter per minute(15 gph) of fuel flow.

Last edited by F1R : 08-26-2018 at 01:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-26-2018, 11:33 AM
F1Boss's Avatar
F1Boss F1Boss is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Taylor Texas
Posts: 686
Default Easy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by F1R View Post
I am only seeking a good, safe, quick and effective method to clean out the lead and carbon deposits.

There is a really informative video on the important data collected by a NACA test report from 1944 where they were able to more than double the HP from a V12 by the use of straight water injection. Details are here: https://youtu.be/1PA70pN6zPM?t=4m8s
or start at the beginning for a good bit of background and lead in.

It gets much more interesting when methanol was added to the mix.

I like the Devils Own auto systems that meter proportionately to fuel flow and boost for super charged and turbo charged engines.

However, since I only intend on clean up before bore scope time, I should be able to regulate a single nozzle to flow about 20-30% of my 1 litter per minute(15 gph) of fuel flow.
You can use an RV water pump, or a garden hose connected to your house, then to the nozzle. You can use spray nozzles from a misting system, but those are generally fairly small - be picky about the size so it is large enough. I would say that you should run the engine at 50% power for about 5 min to see if that is enough to clean things up. If it is still dirty, give 'er another shot!

Rig the nozzle so it sprays into the carb/fuel controller, and turn on the water after the engine is warm, and you are happy with the power setting. I doubt you will need full power, nor will you need any methanol.

Be sure to use distilled water.
__________________
Best,
Mark

"Not everyone needs a Rocket. Some folks, however, shouldn't live life without one.
You know who you are."
Budd Davisson, 1997
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-26-2018, 10:03 PM
isosceles isosceles is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Fremont
Posts: 10
Default

how do you guys make sure there is no detonation? i was once contemplating a possibility of installing a race-car water/methyl injection, but how do you know that it works as expected?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:47 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.