What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Passenger liability waiver? who has one to copy?

flyboy1963

flyboy1963

Well Known Member
I couldn't quite find this info elsewhere in the forum threads.....

1. I have the young eagles waiver form, and one from COPA for Kids, just wondering if anyone has a nice clean one where I can 'insert name here' and cover my butt a little!

2. where do you leave this after the passenger signs it?
certainly no good in the aircraft!....I'll have to stash mine in my yard box next to the tie-down. I guess the hangar guys have it made, they can pin up on the wall until they return.

3. is it good for more than one flight?...or can it be construed as on-going once signed?
 
In a case where you do not have someone on site to take them for you, it should be given to an FBO as an example, in a pre-paid envelope, to be mailed(not to you of course) in the case of your demise.

THis is a common procedure used in several arenas. An example is Angel Flights. We pick up passengers, make em sign, hand to FBO to mail, and off we go.

These forms are available all over the web via a google search. Whether or not the language works in your jurisdiction is up to you.
 
Last edited:
Had a similar issue...

I had the same issue some 20 years ago and went to an Orlando airshow performer/lawyer who told me "they weren't worth the paper they were written on" but he'd be glad to take my money and compose one for me. He explained that your passenger cannot sign away the rights of an interested third party. So your estate could be sued, the Hold Harmless paper notwithstanding. Perhaps the laws have changed but I doubt it. I recommend you seek advice from an attorney in your state that specialises in asset/estate protection.
I sought advice from one such attorney and he said (in very condensed terms) "get at least a million dollar liability policy; get anything that can hurt someone (e.g., water craft, aircraft, automobile) in one persons name only; put you paper assets (e.g., saving account etc) in both yours and your wifes name." That is specific to Florida, your state is likely to be different.
Conclusion: If you are worried go ask a pro. Lawyers are much more affordable before an incident than after.
Don
 
One of my lawyer friends suggested putting the aircraft into the possession of an LLC in addition to the previously recommended insurance, etc.
 
Brantel said:
The learn to fly day/EAA website has a real nice form for this...
http://www.eaa.org/chapters/resources/forms/Adult_waiver.pdf
Click to expand...

Great resource (and I agree with the disclaimers listed above). I've slightly modified it and (temporarily) shared it with the web. To save others from the effort of converting the PDF to text you can copy from the following webpage into your favorite text editor:

google extract

(I'm not a lawyer, my edits might be mistakes. no promises. etc...)
 
Insurance companies love when you make passengers sign waivers to ride in an aircraft they insure. If you crash and kill them then the insurance company doesn't have to pay them anything and then their family can sue your family.
 
Sid Lambert said:
Insurance companies love when you make passengers sign waivers to ride in an aircraft they insure. If you crash and kill them then the insurance company doesn't have to pay them anything and then their family can sue your family.
Click to expand...

Not that cut and dry anymore... really depends on the final draft of the document.
 
APACHE 56 said:
I had the same issue some 20 years ago and went to an Orlando airshow performer/lawyer who told me "they weren't worth the paper they were written on" but he'd be glad to take my money and compose one for me. He explained that your passenger cannot sign away the rights of an interested third party. So your estate could be sued, the Hold Harmless paper notwithstanding. Perhaps the laws have changed but I doubt it. I recommend you seek advice from an attorney in your state that specialises in asset/estate protection.
I sought advice from one such attorney and he said (in very condensed terms) "get at least a million dollar liability policy; get anything that can hurt someone (e.g., water craft, aircraft, automobile) in one persons name only; put you paper assets (e.g., saving account etc) in both yours and your wifes name." That is specific to Florida, your state is likely to be different.
Conclusion: If you are worried go ask a pro. Lawyers are much more affordable before an incident than after.
Don
Click to expand...
I got the same advice from an attorney several years ago. "Not worth the paper they are written on" is just about exactly what I was told.
 
APACHE 56 said:
I had the same issue some 20 years ago and went to an Orlando airshow performer/lawyer who told me "they weren't worth the paper they were written on" but he'd be glad to take my money and compose one for me. He explained that your passenger cannot sign away the rights of an interested third party. So your estate could be sued, the Hold Harmless paper notwithstanding. Perhaps the laws have changed but I doubt it. I recommend you seek advice from an attorney in your state that specialises in asset/estate protection.
I sought advice from one such attorney and he said (in very condensed terms) "get at least a million dollar liability policy; get anything that can hurt someone (e.g., water craft, aircraft, automobile) in one persons name only; put you paper assets (e.g., saving account etc) in both yours and your wifes name." That is specific to Florida, your state is likely to be different.
Conclusion: If you are worried go ask a pro. Lawyers are much more affordable before an incident than after.
Don
Click to expand...

That is very much the same story I heard from the AOPA legal guy at a seminar at the AOPA open house a few years ago.

John
 
LifeofReiley said:
Not that cut and dry anymore... really depends on the final draft of the document.
Click to expand...

Especially when the max insurance I can find for a homebuilt covers each passenger to a maximum of $100K - which is pretty close to nothing. (Anyone found anything better?)
 
Funny story...

flyboy1963 said:
I couldn't quite find this info elsewhere in the forum threads.....

1. I have the young eagles waiver form, and one from COPA for Kids, just wondering if anyone has a nice clean one where I can 'insert name here' and cover my butt a little!

2. where do you leave this after the passenger signs it?
certainly no good in the aircraft!....I'll have to stash mine in my yard box next to the tie-down. I guess the hangar guys have it made, they can pin up on the wall until they return.

3. is it good for more than one flight?...or can it be construed as on-going once signed?
Click to expand...

Years ago, Part 135 operators were required to "leave a copy of the passenger manifest at the airfield of origination". Sometimes the nearest FBO was across the airfield from our departure ramp so it was the usual practice to wad up a copy of the newly completed manifest and toss it out the window in the runup area. While this practice met the strict interpretation of the regulations, I doubt it satisfied the intent. Hope you find a better place to put your waiver forms.
 
If all these liability waivers are no good, why the heck does everything that involves the slightest amount of risk require one to participate?

The EAA has dozens of lawyers that work for them and they still provide one to use so I think I will stick with their recommendation.

Just GOOGLE "Are Liability Waivers Enforceable" and read till your heart is content on the subject....

Here is one that I thought was interesting:

24myqhh.jpg
 
Brantel said:
If all these liability waivers are no good, why the heck does everything that involves the slightest amount of risk require one to participate?
24myqhh.jpg
Click to expand...

Because it keeps honest people honest, so to speak.....

If somebody wants to sue, you can't stop them. Since most states don't allow you to sign away rights for a third party (i.e. spouse, estate, etc) is what causes most grief.

The comment that a LLC protects you, also has similiar issues. I won't go into the details, but a good lawyer can find a way render the perceived protection useless. Don't get me wrong, it can add protection, it just isn't fool proof.
 
Why?

Why does every organization require this kind of thing?
1. Sometimes, in some situations, it might help. As others have observed, it depends on the situation, and the jurisdiction. More likely than not, it won't help. It's certainly not likely to be your "get out of jail free" card.
2. It's cheap and easy.
3. it gives people warm, fuzzy feelings that they are protected, even if they aren't.
4. It doesn't hurt, and it does demonstrate that the passenger is aware of some degree of risk.
 
Seems like this is one of those timeless questions that regularly resurfaces. Sometimes it relates to passengers, other times to the sale of experimental aircraft. The answer always seems to be the same: there is nothing you can do to guarantee you won't be sued.

I'm curious though if anyone knows what the track record has been of actual cases filed? My earlier understanding was that there had not been many successful lawsuits, in part because these are in fact "EXPERIMENTAL" aircraft and clearly identified as such. Is this true, or just my wishful thinking?

I also wonder if anyone ever changes their mind about wanting a ride after they have read one of the waivers?
 
I have a nice liability release form that requires each paragraph to be signed by both reader and witness. It is two pages long and according to my lawyer (who also said its not worth the paper is written on) it does show to the jurors the passenger was fully aware of the risk and intentions and undestood he was riding a machine which breaks, etc....some of the paragraphs also instruct his Family, lawyers, estate, etc to sue no one...
 
Tort Law documentary on HBO..

I recently watched a "tort reform" documentary on HBO.. there was a story of a girl who worked for a security contractor in some capacity and got deployed overseas. Long story short, she signed a contract releasing her employer of any and all responsibility if anything bad happened to her while on deployment.. she got housed in a barracks of all men, she got harrassed, complained, ignored, a lot of bad stuff happened to her, and she has no legal recourse with her employer. There are even congressional hearings going on over her case but she still can't do anything due to her contract she signed releasing her rights to sue.
I would think if someone signed something before a ride in a RV stating that no matter what happens, it is a dangerous activity and agree to not hold the plane nor pilot responsible for any bad outcomes, then it would be better than nothing and most likely hold up.
 
Sid Lambert said:
Insurance companies love when you make passengers sign waivers to ride in an aircraft they insure. If you crash and kill them then the insurance company doesn't have to pay them anything and then their family can sue your family.
Click to expand...

Not exactly the way it works, Sid -
Your liability coverage is there to protect you in case (and not really until) someone sues you. The "per passenger" coverage in your policy isn't really there to just pay out if someone gets hurt. It's there to respond, defend, and pay if someone shows that you were negligent in the injury.
The spouse / child / dependant of a dead passenger can have a claim against you seperate from the dead individual himself. The passenger sues you for injuring him. The family sues you for loss of income, etc.

Re LLC's - Remember, with personal aircraft, the LLC isn't the pilot. YOU are. 90% of aircraft accidents are attribuatible to pilot error. If YOU are negligent in my injury, I'm going to sue YOU - not the LLC aircraft owner.
 
Last edited:
Suggestion

Most of my career, I have represented engineers and other professionals. As a group, I would have to say that engineers, pilots, technical personnel, physicians and military officers have less knowledge about the law and less respect for its vast complexity than perhaps any other groups I know. That covers a lot of the people who read this forum, many of whom are my friends and people for whom I have great respect. That's not intended as a criticism, it's simply the recognition of a weakness. As long as you are aware of the weakness, you can cope with it.

As likable and competent as these people are in their own areas, they, generally speaking, know almost nothing about the law and the legal system (two very different things), and anecdotal experience will not teach you these subjects. If you fall into one or more of these groups, it would behoove you to befriend a lawyer that flies or is building an experimental aircraft, and spend a little time with him to gain some insight. You might want to pay him for an hour or two of his time for this purpose. Just remember, there is not anything you can do that allows you to check out of the legal system -- no piece of paper, no contract, no waiver, no document of any kind gives you any kind of blanket immunity. You might as well try to get a waiver from the law of gravity. While some of these things can help in some circumstances, you are not going to know if you have done enough, if there is something more you can do, or if anything you do will help at all.

That said, my suggestion is that you concentrate on the real dangers of building and operating these aircraft -- take pains to build and fly with safety foremost in mind. Carry good insurance. Then, if something happens, so be it. If you feel more comfortable with some kind of waiver, obtain one. If you feel better if your plane is owned by an LLC, get one done. Just don't cheap out -- get a lawyer to help you that knows this area.
 
Personal Liability Insurance

I sought advice from one such attorney and he said (in very condensed terms) "get at least a million dollar liability policy; get anything that can hurt someone (e.g., water craft, aircraft, automobile) in one persons name only; put you paper assets (e.g., saving account etc) in both yours and your wifes name."

I am an insurance agent in the State of Utah and to add a $1,000,000 personal Liability insurance policy to your existing policy is usually less than $200 a year and can be lumped in with your auto premium.

In my opinion - it is cheap peace of mind if you intend to take passengers with you or not. You could be solo, and have a problem and have to set down in a less than desirable location, and injure someone there. You just never know when you will need the insurance that you didn't take.
 
Get an Umbrella

kevinh said:
Especially when the max insurance I can find for a homebuilt covers each passenger to a maximum of $100K - which is pretty close to nothing. (Anyone found anything better?)
Click to expand...

A personal Liability Umbrella policy that can be attached to your auto/home policy, would cover any thing in excess of the $100k for the passenger. They are usually less than $200 a year (depending on the company you are insured with) for a million $ umbrella.
 
mkjprice said:
A personal Liability Umbrella policy that can be attached to your auto/home policy, would cover any thing in excess of the $100k for the passenger. They are usually less than $200 a year (depending on the company you are insured with) for a million $ umbrella.
Click to expand...

Wow - thanks! I'll shop around for a different umbrella insurance provider. I've had an umbrella policy in addition to my av insurance but the terms of the policy exclude coverage for operating an airplane.
 
mkjprice said:
A personal Liability Umbrella policy that can be attached to your auto/home policy, would cover any thing in excess of the $100k for the passenger. They are usually less than $200 a year (depending on the company you are insured with) for a million $ umbrella.
Click to expand...

Uhhhh - let's check on aviation liability exclusions. I'd be surprised if the personal umbrella covers your aviation exposure. Especially for $200.
 
There are some prior posts on this topic and they say umbrella insurance excludes experimentals.
 
great feedback.....even if not black & white

...so it would seem that we can't entirely cover our butts, ( note the draft!) ...but we can try to insure it!

thanks guys for all the comments!...Kevin, i am already cutting and pasting your document!
 
Last edited:
Perry, for what it's worth, i've been told that *IN CANADA* there has not been a successful lawsuit brought against the builder of an amateur-built aircraft by the estate/insurer/etc. of a subsequent owner. Not sure about passengers suing pilots, but it's at least kind of nice to know that if you sell it you're probably safe.

[edit] I should add that this doesn't mean that there haven't been any lawsuits... Just that none have successfully claimed against the builders. I'd appreciate hearing if anyone knows this to be false.
 
Last edited:
PUP

Does not cover Aircraft Liability.
Would you cover someone's aviation liability for $200 with a $1,000,000 risk? Probably not.
Any attorney, GA pilot, professional person can come off as arragont.
That's not the point. Its in the best interest of your family to go get CURRENT advice. From my prospective ,the biggest value the attorney brings is a familiarity with CURRENT court rulings/judgements. You don't want to build a bridge with old engineering information.
 
In the year and a half that I flew my -8, I took 71 different guests up with me and countless repeat passengers. I hardly ever flew with an empty seat. My wife and I made a decision that we were so blessed to be able to own such a machine that we should share it with as many other people as possible. We assumed the liablity knowing that if something bad happened, the financial impact could be serious. I did make a point of only inviting people with whom I had ties...no strangers. I also made a point of informing them that their life insurance policy would most likely not pay up if they died during our flight. Fly a well-maintained bird, and fly a conservative flight profile with a pax. If you do these two things, you are doing what common sense demands. As far as the financial risks...at some point you have to choose to live your life or live in fear of the unknown... each person will weigh the risks differently.
 
Good points to remember, but my understanding of the Life Insurance policies I have is that the below is not the case. I'll admit that I have only researched the two policies I have, but both would pay if I was a passenger in a plane, experimental or otherwise. With my work policy, the aviation exclusion only applies to the AD&D portion.

tinman451 said:
I also made a point of informing them that their life insurance policy would most likely not pay up if they died during our flight.
Click to expand...

The Aviation Exclusion I have in front of me says it won't pay if I am "A pilot, officer, or member of the crew of the aircraft, or is participating in aeronautic or aviation training."

YMMV
 
Most of us are aware that most standard life insurance policies exclude the time where you are PIC of an aircraft but I am not sure the occasional hop with a friend in an experimental as a passenger will leave you with without coverage.

What say ye insurance experts?
 
LaFayette Life Ins.

I'm in the ag aviation business and have a VERY hard time finding coverage while I'm Spraying!

Along came LaFayette Life, years ago and offered 100% coverage during the course of my ag work and any other commercial or private airplane flight.

LaFayette is in LaFayette, Ind.

Best,
 
Mildly off-topic, but a number of years and three jobs ago my employer changed from self-insuring to using one of the large insurance companies for all the benefits. The company had about 300 people at the time, of which about a dozen were pilots... HR didn't know this until we all got our policies and read them. The new policies excluded pilots left right and center from most injury or life insurance benefits.

We raised the issue with the HR department, who went back to the insurer. They amended the policy to remove all pilot exclusions, at *no charge*. That was the only time i've ever had coverage as a pilot. When we switched insurers four years later, the next company wouldn't change it.
 
I have a $500,000 policy with Protective Insurance for $500 a year that includes dying in a small airplane and scuba diving, and motorcycle track days.
As a CFI, I do a lot of flight reviews and flight instruction for free, and now have my own RV, so wanted to make sure I was covered. It wasn't a problem finding life insurance. Liability insurance might be another story.
 
Limit of liability

In Switzerland we are encouraged by our insurance company to give any passenger a kind of ticket that triggers some protections and limits to liability.

It says this on the "ticket":

Carriage on the basis of this title of transport is subject to the liability provisions stipulated in the Ordinance on Air Transport (OATr) of August 17, 2005 for domestic and international transportation that
is applicable at the time of travel and, where applicable, to the Montreal Convention of May 28, 1999 and the EU Ordinance no. 785/2004 of April 21, 2004. These pieces of legislation govern the liability of air carriers for death or bodily injury of a passenger, for the loss or damage of baggage and for delay. Liability may be limited.
1. For losses up to 100,000 Special Drawing Rights (SDR) the liability may not be excluded or limited. Beyond this, the air carrier may exempt itself from liability under certain grounds for exoneration, defined by the legislation. For death or bodily injury, an advance payment is due for each passenger within 15 days from the date of identification of natural persons entitled to such compensation. In the event of death, at least 16,000 SDR are due.
2. Liability for destruction, loss, damage, or delay to baggage, is limited to 1,000 SDR per passenger.
3. Liability for delayed travel is limited to 4,150 SDR per passenger.
4. Benefits paid to persons entitled to compensation for damages from any passenger accident insurance policies the air carrier or aircraft owner may have taken out, and advance payments that the air carrier may be obligated to make under the applicable liability provisions must be credited in full against liability claims.
Click to expand...

Here is a PDF:

http://www.reznitsky.info/files/fl/axa-winterthur-title-of-transport.pdf

No idea if this is limited to Switzerland or global.

The key thing that triggers the "protection" is that the passenger has to pay something, like 1 dollar. This is apparently ok, since we're allowed to have a passenger pay up the their fair share of the trip's expenses.
 
APACHE 56 said:
I had the same issue some 20 years ago and went to an Orlando airshow performer/lawyer who told me "they weren't worth the paper they were written on" but he'd be glad to take my money and compose one for me. He explained that your passenger cannot sign away the rights of an interested third party. So your estate could be sued, the Hold Harmless paper notwithstanding. Perhaps the laws have changed but I doubt it. I recommend you seek advice from an attorney in your state that specialises in asset/estate protection.
I sought advice from one such attorney and he said (in very condensed terms) "get at least a million dollar liability policy; get anything that can hurt someone (e.g., water craft, aircraft, automobile) in one persons name only; put you paper assets (e.g., saving account etc) in both yours and your wifes name." That is specific to Florida, your state is likely to be different.
Click to expand...
Yes, it may vary by state. As a rule, you can protect your home/real property this way; it's called "tenancy by the entirety," and it can only exist between husband and wife, but it does indemnify property so held from the liabilities of one of the spouses but not the other.
SteveinIndy said:
One of my lawyer friends suggested putting the aircraft into the possession of an LLC in addition to the previously recommended insurance, etc.
Click to expand...
Won't help. An LLC protects the members from the torts of their employees, but won't protect their assets from their own torts. If you, as a member, augur in due to your own culpable tort, they can come after your personal assets, including your interest in the LLC. Moreover, when you commingle the assets of a corporate form with your own personal assets--including using corporate assets for personal use, such as using the plane for your own recreation--it becomes easy to "pierce the corporate veil," making your personal assets available to satisfy corporate liability. To avoid that, you'd have to A) strictly follow the corporate form (including having appropriate officers, having an annual meeting, etc.), B) rent the aircraft from the corporation for your personal use, and C) keep proper accounting, including paying appropriate taxes for the LLC (which should be nil, or nearly so, if you set your pricing right).

Brantel said:
If all these liability waivers are no good, why the heck does everything that involves the slightest amount of risk require one to participate?
Click to expand...

Because you don't have to be holding four aces if they think you're holding four aces. The easiest lawsuit to win is the one that's never filed; if you can convince the potential plaintiff that he doesn't have a chance, you win.

mkjprice said:
I sought advice from one such attorney and he said (in very condensed terms) "get at least a million dollar liability policy; get anything that can hurt someone (e.g., water craft, aircraft, automobile) in one persons name only; put you paper assets (e.g., saving account etc) in both yours and your wifes name."

I am an insurance agent in the State of Utah and to add a $1,000,000 personal Liability insurance policy to your existing policy is usually less than $200 a year and can be lumped in with your auto premium.

In my opinion - it is cheap peace of mind if you intend to take passengers with you or not. You could be solo, and have a problem and have to set down in a less than desirable location, and injure someone there. You just never know when you will need the insurance that you didn't take.
Click to expand...

This is sound advice.

Disclaimer: I am a lawyer, licensed in the State of Oklahoma. I am not your lawyer. The law varies based upon jurisdiction and specific facts. This is not legal advice, and won't become legal advice until you pay my retainer...and I have an airplane habit to support :D.
 
Last edited:
How much coveage do you really have?

I attended a flight instructor refresher clinic a while back and was surprised and disappointed to learn some insurance facts.

One of the participants in the FRIC was an insurance executive. He stated that the amount of liability coverage one carried could be deceiving. Say for instance you had $100K coverage.

If an accident occurred and you were sued, the insurance company has the right to employ their own lawyers to defend the policy and you. Everyone knows how expensive an experienced law firm can be, so.... the $100K coverage pays for the lawyers at whatever rates apply... decreasing the remaining amount of the $100K.

If and when the $100K is used up on lawyer fees the insurance company walks away and you are responsible for the payment of future fees, medical expenses and damages.

I have never confirmed with an insurance company, but the information but it seems consistent with today's business practices and the way US companies focus on the bottom line.
 
Life Insurance

I have had a term life insurance policy with Prudential for a number of years and it specifically covers my activities in a experimental aircraft. If I remember correctly my prior policy did not but things changed a few years ago.
Figs
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top