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  #101  
Old 07-04-2018, 12:19 PM
lon@carolon.net lon@carolon.net is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcarsey View Post
Perhaps ASTM F2245-16c has different language than the older F2245-11? The FAA mandated the newer -16c version as of October 2017.. (see FAA NOA-17-01). I don't have a copy of it, nor do I want to pay $ to see it.
Does anyone have a copy of the 16c standard? I can’t find it online, without paying for it.

I also haven’t been able to find the FAA order that requires compliance with version 16c. Earlier versions required compliance with a plane’s POH, but did not itself prohibit flight in IMC.

As an aside, how can Americans be required to comply with a law that’s not available to be read unless it’s paid for?

Last edited by lon@carolon.net : 07-08-2018 at 11:02 AM.
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  #102  
Old 07-04-2018, 09:57 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
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Rob,

I’m not sure I follow the regulatory trail to the ASTM. The Operating Limits for my ELSA allow night and IFR operations if properly equipped. Are you referring to SLSA RV-12s?

Rich
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  #103  
Old 09-17-2018, 01:47 PM
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randylervold randylervold is offline
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I have read this thread with great interest as I am seriously considering an RV-12iS project that I specifically want to be IFR capable/legal. My intended use will be light VFR capability/use and that has been well articulated by several posters above.

Thanks to Scott M., the OP on this thread, for getting the issues on the table and attempting to get the legalities clarified. I would surmise from all the info above that an ELSA, when properly equipped as defined in 91.205, would indeed be IFR legal, and that the two main changes from the ELSA configuration would be the 91.205-required heated pitot and approved IFR navigator source, and I'm considering what I think is a fairly creative Dynon/Avidyne solution for that. Anything other than that and any disagreement with that?

I am fully aware that I could build it as an E-LSA and then change the panel and certain other items the day I get the COA so as to comply with 91.205, but I have no problem building it as an E-AB. I'm not sure why some other posters seem averse to that.

Once I start the build I'll get back into the pitot issue and the fact that a wing mounted heated pitot would technically require an entire flight test series to determine accuracy, a topic for another thread. I'm told that the Rotax 912iS has a higher output alternator which will hopefully handle the additional electrical load needed, I'll research that here shortly.

So, for the archives, do we have clarity on this now?
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RV-12iS, setting up shop & tools
RV-3B, first flight 2007 - sold 2009
RV-8, first flight 2001 - sold 2004

Last edited by randylervold : 09-17-2018 at 01:49 PM.
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  #104  
Old 09-17-2018, 02:30 PM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randylervold View Post
91.205-required heated pitot and approved IFR navigator source,
Where in 91.205 do you find a "required heated pitot"?
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Mel Asberry..DAR since last century
A&P/EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor/Nat'l Test Pilot School
Specializing in Amateur-Built and Light-Sport Aircraft
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
North Texas (8TA5)
RV-6 Flying since 1993, 172hp O-320, 3-Blade Catto (since 2003)
Legend Cub purchased 12/2017
FRIEND of the RV-1
Eagle's Nest Mentor
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  #105  
Old 09-17-2018, 03:04 PM
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randylervold randylervold is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
Where in 91.205 do you find a "required heated pitot"?
That's what I get for trusting what others have indicated -- I haven't specifically found it, my apologies. Let's clarify, is it required for IFR operations or just a good idea?
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RV-12iS, setting up shop & tools
RV-3B, first flight 2007 - sold 2009
RV-8, first flight 2001 - sold 2004
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  #106  
Old 09-17-2018, 03:26 PM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randylervold View Post
That's what I get for trusting what others have indicated -- I haven't specifically found it, my apologies. Let's clarify, is it required for IFR operations or just a good idea?
Not required.
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Mel Asberry..DAR since last century
A&P/EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor/Nat'l Test Pilot School
Specializing in Amateur-Built and Light-Sport Aircraft
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
North Texas (8TA5)
RV-6 Flying since 1993, 172hp O-320, 3-Blade Catto (since 2003)
Legend Cub purchased 12/2017
FRIEND of the RV-1
Eagle's Nest Mentor
Recipient of Wright Brothers "Master Pilot" Award
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  #107  
Old 09-17-2018, 04:30 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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The “approved ifr navigator” could be as simple as a VOR, depending on where you’re going. As to the heated pitot, as Gil said, not legally required. You might ask yourself, “Will I absolutely never enter the clouds when it’s below freezing?” You might also ask yourself if your EFIS attitude display requires airspeed data, airspeed or gps, or neither, and how that factors into your risk tolerance.
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  #108  
Old 09-17-2018, 05:38 PM
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randylervold randylervold is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
You might also ask yourself if your EFIS attitude display requires airspeed data, airspeed or gps, or neither, and how that factors into your risk tolerance.
Good point, virtually all EFIS systems use either GPS or pitot/static "aiding", most use both to some degree.
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RV-12iS, setting up shop & tools
RV-3B, first flight 2007 - sold 2009
RV-8, first flight 2001 - sold 2004
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  #109  
Old 09-17-2018, 05:47 PM
moosepileit moosepileit is offline
 
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Stein sells an easy to install alternate static air source switch valve. Cabin alternate air selection with autopilot on will move the plane 60 feet vertically at cruise.

As important as Pitot heat, potentially.

I did get a static block once after a level 5 storm drenched plane from every direction.

Have not tried to find icing.
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  #110  
Old 09-17-2018, 09:22 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randylervold View Post
Good point, virtually all EFIS systems use either GPS or pitot/static "aiding", most use both to some degree.
Some use “aiding” (fine tuning); some will show a just plain wrong attitude without either pitot or gps data.
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