Dents, Dings and Damage-Paint shop saga

My 3 year paint warranty was coming to an end and I received a phone call from the paint shop asking how the paint was holding up. I had a few details for them to finish up so I decided to take it back to the paint shop. This is the third time it's been in the paint shop. The first time was the original paint job; the second time was to fix a few blemishes in the paint.

The flight to the paint shop is about 45 minutes (3.5 hr car ride-lots of mountains in the way) and I arrived early so that we can get the work done and get out of there before it got too hot. I was greeted by the new sales guy who had not seen the paint job before. He commented how wonderful it looked. He proceeds to tell me how much higher quality their paint jobs were compared to their competitors.

The detailer began to detail the areas I needed to be fixed. One area was between the rudder cable exits in the rudder. The second time I took the plane in the detailer did not fix this area so I wanted to get it finally fixed. The detailer uses a 10 inch buffing wheel the rudder cables we're in the way so I remove them from the rudder and they were hanging vertically while he began to buff. I was not in the hangar at the time but I was outside on the phone when they heard a thump, thump, thump or bang, bang, bang and I wondered if the buffing wheel had come off the buffer and hit the airplane. That was not the case. The rudder cable wrapped around the buffing wheel and with slapping against the side of the fuselage and the underside of the horizontal stabilizer. I counted 6 to 7 impact points. So now I have several dents in the fuselage and a few dents on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer. The worst one is on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer. It is a deep dent and it broke through the skin.

The plane was flyable (with some 500 mph tape on the worst dent) and I flew the plane back to my home airport. Now my injured beautiful RV-7A sits in its hanger as I decide what to do next.



The paint shop was very sorry about what had happened and will repaint the area as required. They will fill the dents but I don't want them to do anything structural. I've included a photo taken from my cell phone of the damage. Not the best photo but you can see the results. The options are an internal reinforcement/structural patch or re-skinning the horizontal stabilizer. I wasn't planning to put the forward spar reinforcement at this time since I do not have cracks but it looks like I'll have the horizontal stabilizer off the plane so I might as well put in the reinforcement now. It is about 12 weeks to Oshkosh and I was planning to fly my plane there for the first time. I believe the repairs and repainting will take a total of 6-8 weeks.

I have been through the routine flying out to the paint shop and having someone fly out and pick me up and fly back. So between my friends taxing me back and forth from the paint shop and my flight out and back we will burn ~36 gals of avgas. That adds up to almost $200. Should I ask the paint shop to reimburse for the travel costs?

So that was my wonder day at the paint shop.

I had to vent.

Holy smokes... what a bad day. You seem pretty calm, at least in writing. A good attribute for a pilot I suppose.
Seems like you are entitled to the best fix that is out there. I am hoping the experts will outline the procedures with replies here. At that point, document your costs by all means.
The paint shop should not leave you hanging with costs as well as the terrible feeling of someone banging on your plane with what amounts to a runaway hammer.

That's terrible. And yes, the paint shop should reimburse you for everything it takes to have the plane returned to the condition it was prior to the accident; parts, labor, travel, ....

I find it curious that the paint shop offered just to fill the dents, even the ones that have punched thru the skin. It is obvious that the skin should be replaced not just the dents filled.

I would lay out all the costs on a spreadsheet and show it to the manager/owner. Go find an A&P and get their hourly labor rate and put that in the spreadsheet as well.

aeroaddict said:

That's terrible. And yes, the paint shop should reimburse you for everything it takes to have the plane returned to the condition it was prior to the accident; parts, labor, travel, ....

I find it curious that the paint shop offered just to fill the dents, even the ones that have punched thru the skin. It is obvious that the skin should be replaced not just the dents filled.

I would lay out all the costs on a spreadsheet and show it to the manager/owner. Go find an A&P and get their hourly labor rate and put that in the spreadsheet as well.

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Agreed. The paint shop should reimburse all travel expenses as well as ALL PARTS AND LABOR!
I would never reskin a flight surface IMHO. I would replace the entire structure. Drilling out all those rivets creates a lot of oversize holes. There is a lot of potential for failure . I know many skilled AP's will disagree with me and if you are one of those then build on. I would replace the whole HS. Ithe dents in the fuse could be worked out by a paintless dent , filled and painted. It's your butt in the sky.

sorry for the challenges here. I am struggling to understand why filling dents with filler is a problem. I have had to do this on my wing due to previous builder making dents with rivet gun. Further, why is a penetration of the skin a problem. My skins have thousands of holes where the rivets and screw go and it is considered structural. I can point to numerous holes drilled in my skins for various purposes. In fact, I drilled a 1/2" hole in my stabilizer skin for placing an OAT probe. You should be able to rivet in a small .023 backing plate behind the penetration and you would have the same structural integrity as cutting an inspection plate which seems to be done all the time.

Think lightening holes. a hole in and of itself, given edge distance requirements, etc., doesn't necessarily impact structural integrity.

I am not an engineer, so take this for what it's worth. However, I would speak with someone knowledgeable in this area before considering skin replacement.

Larry

Also, don't forget to check the integrity of the rudder cable that used as a hammer.

Tim

I'd have to go with Larry on this one. Yeah, it really stinks that this happened, and it could have been carelessness on the part of the guy running the buffer, but building a new HS is hardly necessary. If you had made the dent with a rivet gun or by leaving a Cleco on the table where you set the HS while building, you would fix the hole and then have any evidence filled and painted so you can't see it. That is what I would do. Just give it a structural fix and have the paint shop do the body work required to hide it, then have them warranty that area for a period in case the filler pops.

For anyone having work done in the future or just parking it out on the ramp on a trip...try to think of all of the ways to prevent damage to your plane.

Remove hardware, bag, tag, push cables as far into tailcone as possible, use tape to secure and protect them. Use foam cushion pieces on sharp corners, use all covers including cabin cover, attach flourescent construction ribbons to outside edges allowing them to hang down. Take pics before work. Get a copy of their liability insurance policy. If at all possible, do it yourself.

I would flush patch the bad one, fill the remainder, ask for some money for my trips and labor, ask them to repaint when I am done and ask to be their top priority. Yes, that would make me just a little ill.

Just my $0.02.

Rivet holes and others are obviously round and have smooth edges. These holes were machined using known and verified processes developed over many years.

The skin penetration from the cable is an area of sudden impact great enough to exceed the tensile strength of the aluminum causing the material to mechanically separate (tear) in a violent fashion.

There is very little if any work hardening of machined holes, unlike the tear in the skin which has considerable localized work hardening of the aluminum.

Agree with the dents; fill, sand and paint.

One can remove a piece the size of a quarter to make a flush patch. Once completed, filled, painted one will never notice.

Wayne Gillispie said:

One can remove a piece the size of a quarter to make a flush patch. Once completed, filled, painted one will never notice.

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I agree. I wasn't suggesting that the area shouldn't be cleaned up and radiused. Only dispelling the notion that a hole in an aluminum sheet somehow compromises it's strength, especially if a patch is properly applied.

Larry

I knew I would get blown out of the water with my "replace it" opinion. Drilling it out and patching it is actually a very viable solution. If my only option was to reskin the horizontal stab, I would replace it instead. I base that decision on the fact there is no way I could drill out all those holes perfectly.

flush patch

So, if one cleans up the hole to a circle about the size of a quarter, how does one make a flush patch without access to the back of the skin?
Bill Brooks

C-GRVT said:

So, if one cleans up the hole to a circle about the size of a quarter, how does one make a flush patch without access to the back of the skin?
Bill Brooks

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There are sheet-metal magicians that can repair just about anything you can imagine. I have seen a hole that was punched in a T-6 "Texan" wing when it fell off a jack, repaired, and I would defy anyone to find it. The hole was properly structurally repaired, and the paint was matched perfectly. Even the owner couldn't find the repair!

These guys are artisans. Try to find one, and pay them to do an expert repair. Building is one thing. Repairing is another level. And let the paint shop's insurance pay. That's what it's for.

Just my $2 worth.

Yes, dollars. There's no "cents" in Aviation!

C-GRVT said:

So, if one cleans up the hole to a circle about the size of a quarter, how does one make a flush patch without access to the back of the skin?
Bill Brooks

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It is always nice to have access to the back side to install the doubler and filler piece. If not, use a 3/32" Pop Dimpler and blind rivets. Apply filler, sand smooth, prime and repaint. Pretty simple...just takes time, skills and the right tools. Practice on scrap first until you get the knack. Have fun.

PCHunt said:

There are sheet-metal magicians that can repair just about anything you can imagine. I have seen a hole that was punched in a T-6 "Texan" wing when it fell off a jack, repaired, and I would defy anyone to find it. The hole was properly structurally repaired, and the paint was matched perfectly. Even the owner couldn't find the repair!

These guys are artisans. Try to find one, and pay them to do an expert repair. Building is one thing. Repairing is another level.

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Paul, find Jack Thompson. He is one of the best sheet metal guys in Tucson.

springer said:

Paul, find Jack Thompson. He is one of the best sheet metal guys in Tucson.

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He now works for a jet engine inspection service near our Airpark and is often overseas.

Last weekend he said he misses building RVs...

A few years ago several of us watched him repair a major chunk of a Yak leading edge - it was metalworking wizardly in motion. He did everything by eye, and it all fit perfectly with exact spacing on the rivets.

Send me an email if you want to get in touch with him, I see his boss regularly.

Current Status

I removed the emp today and took it home to my shop. It took about 2 hours. Inspected the fuselage dents. The most serious one had a scratch or gouge in it. It was had to tell if the scratch was deep since there was still paint in the dent. After a bit of sanding with 320 wet dry paper I was able to remove the scratch. I sanded a sample piece of 0.025 aluminum (same thickness as the aft fuselage side skin) to be able to determine how much material was lost. I believe I sanded somewhere between .001-.002 off to clean up the scratch. I can live with that without any additional reinforcement. The dent is about .010" easily filled and sanded. The remaining dents/dings aren't as deep and an not a concern.

The HS is another issue. Shown in the photos below you can now see the damage. The 3/4" circle represents one option of cutting the damage and installing a flush patch. However the dent depth at the 3/4" is 1/16" deep so a flush patch may not work without hammering back the material. Unfortunately when you try this the material distorts a bit. I don't want a lot of filler to fix this problem. There is another dent that has not broken through the skin. However it is also 1/16" deep but a much smaller effected area. Lots of stress to have caused this.



I am concerned that the paint shop may have more issues filling and sanding the underside of the HS (When mounted to the airframe -I am not taking this beast off again) and making it look right. They would have better success with a new skin. Actually it will be less work for the paint shop and a bit more work for me. But it would be like new.

I going to think about the next steps over the next few days.

I just finished a SkyView upgrade and the plane was down for a month. I only got 5 hours of flying in the last month after the upgrade, now the plane is down again. The nice cool weather is gone and the summer temperatures are back. 96 F today at the hangar. I am eagerly waiting for winter to come, the best time of year in AZ.

The damaged area is right near the under lying structural elements. I would pull a few rivets and tie the patch into the structure and use pull rivets if you can't buck them. The depression of the dent doesn't matter, as the patch is going over the skin and it represents the new skin in that area. If you do this, you may need to trim the lower HS fairing to allow for the patch.

I wouldn't worry about the guys doing the fill and sand on their back. They deserve some dust in their eyes. I have done some filling on my back. Not enjoyable, but not really difficult.

I would polish scratches out with a scotchbrite wheel, fill, sand, repaint and move on.

Those are minor dents and there are no structural issues.

rocketbob said:

I would polish scratches out with a scotchbrite wheel, fill, sand, repaint and move on.

Those are minor dents and there are no structural issues.

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Bucking bars have been dropped and made bigger dents than those.....

I know you are frustrated with having to deal with someone else's incompetence, but I would not even consider reskinning that stab, much less replacing it (!?). Make simple repairs, sand, fill, paint, and move on with enjoying your safe plane.

Filler

So what would be the best filler for this type of repair on sheet aluminum?

I like Poly Fiber Super Fill epoxy filler. Light weight, easy to work.

Cessna sells a product labeled "Aerodynamic Filler" What you get is a over priced can of Dyna Lite. Wich is just Bondo.

I like and use Evercoat Rage.

Update

I removed the root nose rib to gain access to the underside of the dent that broke through the skin. I drilled out the dent to 3/4" diameter to see if that would relieve some of the stress in the dent and assess the option of an internal patch. The removal of the material did help a bit with the depth of the remaining dent. However there isn't enough distance between the hole and front spar to get a radial rivet pattern for the internal patch. An external patch is not even in consideration.

I took a piece of .032 sheet and supported it appropriately to simulate the area that was damaged on the HS. I then took a ball peen hammer and hit it. I couldn't even come close to causing a dent anything like the dent in the HS. So the energy imparted on the HS by the clevis end of the rudder cable was extremely high.

The rudder cable and clevis look fine but I will replace the cable as well.

So the fun begins as I reskin the HS. Parts are do in on Friday. I ordered new ribs, front spar and skin. I will also be performing the service bulletin (even though I don't have any cracks). Hopefully I will have the HS back on the plane the following weekend. I will update the post with pictures of my progress.

What a bummer. But appreciate the update and believe you are doing the right thing repair wise.

I'm sure most of us have experienced poor customer service in our everyday travels; car dealers, department stores, tire shops,..... . I would be curious to know how the paint shop treats you in regards to your damages. Aviation is a small community and a poor customer service rating would not be in their best business interest.

Update

I finished re-skinning the Left HS and performed the HS front spar service bulletin (even though I didn't a have any cracks. It came out better then the original skin. I have better tools then when I built this in 2002. I have a better rivet gun, spring back dimple dies, pneumatic squeezer and tungsten bucking bar. Took her for a flight this morning and it felt great.

Next Saturday I will fly it to the paint shop (again) for HS painting and repair and painting of the aft fuselage where there are a few minor dings/dents.

Looks great. Let us know how the Paint Shop visit goes.

Pmerems said:

I finished re-skinning the Left HS and performed the HS front spar service bulletin (even though I didn't a have any cracks. It came out better then the original skin. <Good solution, SB done, and new skin> I have better tools then when I built this in 2002 <amen, don't we ALL!!> . I have a better rivet gun, spring back dimple dies, pneumatic squeezer and tungsten bucking bar. Took her for a flight this morning and it felt great.

Next Saturday I will fly it to the paint shop (again) for HS painting and repair and painting of the aft fuselage where there are a few minor dings/dents.

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Nice job on crafting a solution, smart thinking. Hopefully, the paint shop will step up and make you whole now with your additional investment. I am betting they will, but I believe in positioning people to do the right thing.