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How can anyone build a glass plane?

bret

Well Known Member
Just venting and looking to see if anyone shares my frustration, here is 30 hours on a piece of stupid fiberglass, and going to be another 20 to get it ready for paint, am I doing something wrong here. I miss riveting:cool:
20131116_155339_zpsf2f30e29.jpg
 
I'll make you a deal: you teach me how to rivet and I'll educate you on glass work :D

Send me an e-mail or call and I can talk you off the ledge...

Dick

310 seven three nine 988 four
 
I'll make you a deal: you teach me how to rivet and I'll educate you on glass work :D

Send me an e-mail or call and I can talk you off the ledge...

Dick

310 seven three nine 988 four

Deal! Fly on out to Reno! Looking at your profile, I guess fiberglass is your cup of tea, I think I can get myself into enough trouble to make it work but not an entire airplane, my whining is this stuff is all flopity and wavy making for a lot of work to make it flat and look good when finished.
Are you building a vans yet, I jumped in cold turkey, no experience at all and it has been pretty easy.....but, only with the help of this wonderful website.
 
From your photo, it looks like you coated the fairing with clear epoxy. It's about the hardest product to sand. I find that your hand is about the best thing to find if your product is smooth, without bumps. Get the dust off and slide your hand over the piece, not too fast but not too slow. If there are any bumps or holes you will feel then (not the pin holes).
 
From your photo, it looks like you coated the fairing with clear epoxy. It's about the hardest product to sand. I find that your hand is about the best thing to find if your product is smooth, without bumps. Get the dust off and slide your hand over the piece, not too fast but not too slow. If there are any bumps or holes you will feel then (not the pin holes).

Yip, good eye , trying to fill pin holes, I have around 5K in paint (material) so far and trying to make this match the parts I have painted, just tired of sanding and venting here on my favorite website =VAF=
 
tricks and stuff

From surf board stuff I learned there are lots of tricks to make fiberglass more bearable. Just ask something specific here and I sure the tricks will start to flow. JMHO. But yes fiberglass is not preferred over metal bending.
 
Bret,
From working on Chris Craft boats just up the hill from you and a Glassair down farther in Cameron Park, I can tell you that straight epoxy is best sanded with pieces of belt sanding belts. It doesn't help the pinholes, but it is about the only way to get the ripples out. Spray adhesive on a piece of wood the shape you need works well. Then use a glazing product to fill pinholes. Good luck and have fun with it.
 
Dan, you are the reason for this thread, I am trying to do the work I have seen you do on here and you make it look so easy, your work is awesome!
 
Hey Bret, I must admit that I AMA power tools guy when it comes to finishing glass parts - I'd be using a little mouse sander for that part, at least with the hard candy coating - at least until I got all the high points off. If we weren't so swamped at the house project, I'd pop over the hill. Are you building at KMEV, or at home?
 
Just venting and looking to see if anyone shares my frustration, here is 30 hours on a piece of stupid fiberglass, and going to be another 20 to get it ready for paint, am I doing something wrong here. I miss riveting

Slight thread drift but I will tie together at the end.

My issues with working with fiberglass fairing parts is that they change shape. You pop it off the mold and it warps. Warping does not stop there. When you paint it will warp differently. After a couple years on the plane it still seems to change its shape.

One way to limit warp is to make layup stake of plies symmetric. With all the resin on the outside you may get some warpage that will become a frustration later on. Too much paint can also do the same thing.

The only satisfaction I get from fiberglass I guess comes from my inner artist. I know I could never "sculpt" a piece of art but seeing a nice fiberglass fairing I made to smoothly blend out a corner is my "pure art". But this comes after all done as it can be "pure frustration" during the process.
 
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candy coating

don't feel bad, I also applied a layer of epoxy to the intersection fairing. I learned from that and now use my time better. you will have a nice looking part when it's finished.
 
Question

OK,
I'll ask this question for the sake of any/all who may be thinking it: Is it really necessary to glaze that empennage fairing at all? I looked mine over and just didn't see any reason to glaze: It looked pretty good. (The cowling isn't different story...)
 
Wayne,
We've never met, but your posts always strike me as though you are a person who's pride is inversely proportional to quality :confused:D

I'm with Wayne here too. About an hour or less for me on this part. I'm an experienced fiberglass guy after a Cozy MKIV so that's a help. Just because an hour on this part was spent and Wayne states he is not building a show plane (same here) has nothing to do with build quality or safety.
 
So why sanding belts?
I use the sanding belts because they cut better and last longer than regular sand paper. I am not saying that is the only way. just the way I have done it for many years building glass boats to a Glasair 1TD.

You can roll them up or glue them to a piece of wood that is easily shaped to what you need. Bret has already put straight epoxy on the faring and if it isn't perfect now, he will have to sand it smooth. Any sandpaper is going to leave imperfections and that is where the glazing or light weight filler will be used.
 
Bret, you're working on the most difficult RV part in terms of surface contour, as it's all concave or convex faired into concave. Still, it's just sanding. You wouldn't bitch this much if it was a block of wood.

Shape is something you do in the layup and fairing steps. The shape of the raw layup is controlled by mold or form shape. Time spent on the mold or form before starting the actual part pays a large dividend later, in the fairing stage.

Fairing is where we correct surface contour. I am absolutely amazed at the variety of filler material so often seen slapped on the same part. Ask about it and you always get a variation on the same answer; they were looking for the magical easy product. What they didn't realize is that different fillers sand at different rates. It makes it more difficult to flatten the surface profile, as the harder fillers become highs and the soft fillers become lows. In general, stick with one filler mixed at the same ratio every time.

Let's assume you are very close to the desired surface profile. The epoxy is there to seal the surface, nothing more. All you need to do is scuff it smooth while leaving a bit of tooth for adhesion. It's only a few 0.001's thick; about the only mistake you can make is to sand it too much, cutting back into the underlying glass fiber.

Is it hard to sand? Depends on what you're sanding with. First, sandpaper is a shop consumable. Don't be a cheapskate; buy the best and change it often (I mostly buy 3M gold Stickit disks and Green Corps 3x18's). Second, although it might not help you much on this particular part, an air orbital is a required shop tool. Third, think about grit size; what is the largest grit scratch you can cover? Attacking the epoxy coat with 300-600 grit paper is pretty dumb when a subsequent coat will be a thick primer-surfacer. Use a new sheet of 120; no problem covering a 120 scratch.

I visited a major aerospace composite contractor plant a few weeks ago. Know what they were using to seal raw glass? Epoxy mixed with cabosil.

Fast, cheap, good...pick any two.
 
That part looks pretty good. I would say ready to paint in a half day. Only 20 minutes of work the rest is dry time for primer.
 
Bret, you're working on the most difficult RV part in terms of surface contour, as it's all concave or convex faired into concave. Still, it's just sanding. You wouldn't bitch this much if it was a block of wood.

Shape is something you do in the layup and fairing steps. The shape of the raw layup is controlled by mold or form shape. Time spent on the mold or form before starting the actual part pays a large dividend later, in the fairing stage.

Fairing is where we correct surface contour. I am absolutely amazed at the variety of filler material so often seen slapped on the same part. Ask about it and you always get a variation on the same answer; they were looking for the magical easy product. What they didn't realize is that different fillers sand at different rates. It makes it more difficult to flatten the surface profile, as the harder fillers become highs and the soft fillers become lows. In general, stick with one filler mixed at the same ratio every time.

Let's assume you are very close to the desired surface profile. The epoxy is there to seal the surface, nothing more. All you need to do is scuff it smooth while leaving a bit of tooth for adhesion. It's only a few 0.001's thick; about the only mistake you can make is to sand it too much, cutting back into the underlying glass fiber.

Is it hard to sand? Depends on what you're sanding with. First, sandpaper is a shop consumable. Don't be a cheapskate; buy the best and change it often (I mostly buy 3M gold Stickit disks and Green Corps 3x18's). Second, although it might not help you much on this particular part, an air orbital is a required shop tool. Third, think about grit size; what is the largest grit scratch you can cover? Attacking the epoxy coat with 300-600 grit paper is pretty dumb when a subsequent coat will be a thick primer-surfacer. Use a new sheet of 120; no problem covering a 120 scratch.

I visited a major aerospace composite contractor plant a few weeks ago. Know what they were using to seal raw glass? Epoxy mixed with cabosil.

Fast, cheap, good...pick any two.

Thanks Dan, the fairing was placed on the plane and cleko opposite side while sanding other side with a one inch PVC length. This is going to be black and purple so it has got to be straight, i only glazed it after everything was straight to seal the edges and fill any remaining holes? and you are right about hard and soft fillers sanding differently. Fun stuff, just went out to the garage and it looks good, not as good as your work, you should post a pic of your scoop for an example:D
 
Hey Bret, I must admit that I AMA power tools guy when it comes to finishing glass parts - I'd be using a little mouse sander for that part, at least with the hard candy coating - at least until I got all the high points off. If we weren't so swamped at the house project, I'd pop over the hill. Are you building at KMEV, or at home?

Thanks For the offer Paul, Sky Hawk at KMEV, RV resting in the comfort of my living room and garage in Gardnerville.
 
Bret, love the shape of your fairing. Do you really need that many screws to attach? By extending the part of the fairing that wraps around and underneath the stab leading edge I was able to "hook" my fairing in place and secure with just two screws (one on each side) to the aft edge of the vertical stab. Still holding after 22 years of flying.
 
Skim coat

I just skimmed this thread but didn't see what epoxy the original poster used for his skim coat. For non structural parts I would suggest using West System epoxy. It's the easiest sanding epoxy we Canardians use. MGS is miserable to sand by comparison.

Jon D.
Cozy MKIV
Bronze Lindy winner OSH 2013
 
Ug:mad: I should have left it alone, just shot black epoxy primer and of course it shows everything, what looks good unprimed is very deceiving. I'm glad I am building an aluminum plane. Tempting to throw it out and start over, the only good part is the wrap around the HS glove fit. Going to wait a day or two and start blocking. Apparently 60 grit is only good for?????? What is that saying. Build on?
 
Bondo

In a former life I worked with Bondo (polyester resin). It can be applied up to 1/8" and forms easy with a cheese grater and 80 grit sand paper. This job shouldn't take more than an hour. The vinylester resin and epoxy are both very hard to achieve final form but are superior in strength?

Standing by for incoming!!:D
 
In a former life I worked with Bondo (polyester resin). It can be applied up to 1/8" and forms easy with a cheese grater and 80 grit sand paper. This job shouldn't take more than an hour. The vinylester resin and epoxy are both very hard to achieve final form but are superior in strength?

Standing by for incoming!!:D
Ok, nice to meet you, but, did you just say one hour For the EMP fairing? or to make a flat area on a flat piece of material flat? I started this thread just to vent my frustrations of not being a skilled fiberglass manipulator, and to survey the crowd for similar frustration. Misery likes company. I like the polyester stuff, I am using Metal Bite glazing putty, it works but as Dan mentioned, it is softer and sands down faster than epoxy. Hence, inadvertently adding complexity to my messed up project. As you can tell, I am done for the day, having a beer and reflecting on another day of aircraft building:D
 
Bret,

Hope you enjoy the beer or two, it sounds well deserved!! I haven't made it to the emp fairing yet but it looked like a skim coat was all that is needed to achieve the final shape before priming. I don't know how much flex this thing has on it but poly resin probably doesn't fit the bill. Man good luck with that thing!
 
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Ug:mad: I should have left it alone, just shot black epoxy primer and of course it shows everything, what looks good unprimed is very deceiving. I'm glad I am building an aluminum plane. Tempting to throw it out and start over, the only good part is the wrap around the HS glove fit. Going to wait a day or two and start blocking. Apparently 60 grit is only good for?????? What is that saying. Build on?

Here is what I would do.

1: Sand smooth with 180 grit paper.
2: Eyeball for pinholes.
3: Fill any you see. I use Evercoat "Glaze Coat" P/n 417
4: Sand the filler
5: Prime with PPG K36 primer. It's easy to get, dries fast, and sands real nice.
6: back to step 2.
7: After 2 or 3 applications of primer sand with 320 sand paper if ready to paint or just leave it for your painter to do it.
 
Here is what I would do.

1: Sand smooth with 180 grit paper.
2: Eyeball for pinholes.
3: Fill any you see. I use Evercoat "Glaze Coat" P/n 417
4: Sand the filler
5: Prime with PPG K36 primer. It's easy to get, dries fast, and sands real nice.
6: back to step 2.
7: After 2 or 3 applications of primer sand with 320 sand paper if ready to paint or just leave it for your painter to do it.

#7 (or just leave it for your painter) well if I was not a poor blue color worker I could probably hire a painter, but, I am the painter, by the pic you can see why I am spending more than one
DSC03114_zps08911787.jpg
hr on the EMP fairing:cool:
 
Wow, Bret:eek: You did that paint??? Awesome! Looks like you could easily barter some painting assist for some glass assist with someone local.
 
... if I was not a poor blue color worker I could probably hire a painter, but, I am the painter, by the pic you can see why I am spending more than one hr on the EMP fairing

You have high standards and do nice work, so quit your whining'.

Any **** fool can smash rivets ;)
 
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I've probably done 10 of these empanage fairings for RV friends who hate glass. The first few planes I simply threw out the Vans part and made a new one from pour foam, put the last 6 or so I've found that by waxing the VS, HS and fuselage and then bondoing the fairing in place it makes it much easier to do the contouring, as the part is stable. I start with 36 grit "blue" Norton sanding belts glued to various sizes of PVC tubing (rigid) or 4#/cu ft Klegecell foam (flexible) to begin, then working up to about 150 or 180 before beginning with high build primer.

The fairing pops right off if you do a good wax job on the aluminum :)
 
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I found using straight epoxy with a brush would leave a very uneven surface. Making sanding that much harder. I followed one of DanH recommendations and use a small roller for this coat and found sanding much easier as I had to take off less material.
 
Geez, Bret, thats nice! I think a trip over the hill to see that would be an inspiration to my build.
B/C or SS?
 
#7 (or just leave it for your painter) well if I was not a poor blue color worker I could probably hire a painter, but, I am the painter, by the pic you can see why I am spending more than one
DSC03114_zps08911787.jpg
hr on the EMP fairing:cool:

Those are some nice looking wings!

If I spent 30 hrs. on one little part I would not be in business very long. The whole set of glass parts on an RV takes me about 20-24 hrs to get ready for paint. That's all work hours. Dry time is over night. I have gotten faster over the years. I've done more RV fairings than you can shake a stick at.:D
 
Update, at 42 hours, primer shot and blocked, second primer shot and curing, predicting 65 hours, O Crud, just did a count, I have 14 more pieces of wheel pants, leg fairings, and intersection fairings! Now I know why a paint job costs so much, I thought the wings took a long time to paint:confused:
 
I gave up working on my doors and canopy when it got to last winter and too cold for fiberglass work. Just stopped again for this winter..............

I could NEVER build a glass aircraft - hate it!
 
I gave up working on my doors and canopy when it got to last winter and too cold for fiberglass work. Just stopped again for this winter..............

I could NEVER build a glass aircraft - hate it!

Too cold? Na, back window open, heater on hi, wood stove cranking, ready, crack garage door open, fire up fans, and Shoot paint! then 5 min later the wife comes barging into the paint shop-garage- plane factory, WHAT the *&% are you doing Freezing us out?
 
There are so many flaws, I give up, three coats of primer sprayed and sanded off, three coats of black shot and sanded off, runs, pits, bumps, I don't know how you pro painters do it. You have my respect:)

DSC04319_zps24491c87.jpg
 
What Rocky said, there is NOTHING I can see about the work on that fairing that you need or should be ashamed of.
 
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