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Southern flyers and their oil coolers

F

fabricflyer

Well Known Member
Are you flying in the south and satisfied with the oil cooler that came in your firewall fwd kit? I'll be flying in southern MS with a IO360 180 hp and CS prop. The guys here are saying I need to put the larger cooler that Vans offers. Appreciate any thoughts on the subject.
 
fabricflyer said:
The guys here are saying I need to put the larger cooler that Vans offers. Appreciate any thoughts on the subject.
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The folks with the direct, hands-on experience generally know what they're talking about ;)

Here in the Texas heat, the oil cooler that came supplied with the firewall-forward kit for my friend's RV-8 was woefully inadequate for his ECI Titan IO-360 engine. Ended up changing to an almost $700 SW-10599R oil cooler and still could use a bit bigger one on the hotter days.

If your IO-360 is equipped with the piston oil squirters (my friend's ECI engine is), then that makes the engine dump a *lot* more heat into the oil, but it sure helps to keep the CHTs down in the happy zone.
 
fabricflyer said:
Are you flying in the south and satisfied with the oil cooler that came in your firewall fwd kit? I'll be flying in southern MS with a IO360 180 hp and CS prop. The guys here are saying I need to put the larger cooler that Vans offers. Appreciate any thoughts on the subject.
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It's much easier to cut off air flow if your oil cooler is too big than to go the other way. I went with the bigger 2006(whatever model number) and mounted on the firewall for this reason. I've yet to find anyone that can't keep the oil temps down with the bigger cooler.
 
oil cooler

I fly in north Florida mostly. I have an 8 with an IO 360 with the larger oil cooler. I have no problem with oil temperatures at altitude, but tooling around the county on hot afternoons below 2000 feet, I'll see oil tempertures near 225. I am seriously thinking about moving the cooler to the firewall with a 3 inch scat tube to supply air from high up on the baffle behind the number 3 cylinder. My setup is currently on the baffle behind the number 4 cylinder. It would be best to not have to worry about oil temperatures, so I recommend you buy the larger cooler and mount it on the firewall. My baffles are sealed very well and I never have CHT problems; just oil temperature. Good luck.
 
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DEWATSON said:
I fly in north Florida mostly. I have an 8 with an IO 360 with the larger oil cooler. I have no problem with oil temperatures at altitude, but tooling around the county on hot afternoons below 2000 feet, I'll see oil tempertures near 225. I am seriously thinking about moving the cooler to the firewall with a 3 inch scat tube to supply air from high up on the baffle behind the number 3 cylinder. My setup is currently on the baffle behind the number 4 cylinder. It would be best to not have to worry about oil temperatures, so I recommend you buy the larger cooler and mount it on the firewall. My baffles are sealed very well and I never have CHT problems; just oil temperature. Good luck.
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I am not in any of the Southern states nor do I have a 360. I am in the SouthWest with an O-320 Hartzell. I had BAD luck with a firewall mounted oil cooler.

I had my oil cooler mounted on the firewall with 3" SCAT coming off the baffle from behind #3 cylinder. This was almost 16-years ago. During fight testing in September 1997 in Southern California, I always had high oil temperatures. (230 F and up). I had Vapor lock three times while on the ground and high oil temperature is what I blame it on. I ran with the oil cooler in the firewall location with 3" SCAT tube ducting for ~75 hours. Relocated it to engine mount and baffle behind #4 cylinder. Temperatures dropped a lot but came back up to around 195-200 in cruise the next summer. Upgraded to LASAR Ignition with spark advance and temperatures rose with high power settings on hot days but still stated below 210 unless it was a hot engine on a hot day during a hard climb at slow speeds. Turning the LASAR ignition off fixes the issue all the time and pulling the prop back and lowering the nose will do the same thing.

This is my experience with a firewall mounted oil cooler. Others may have a different experience but I cannot recommend a firewall mounted oil cooler in a hot environment based on my experience in my RV-6 back in 1997.
 
oil cooler

It seems there might not be a solution for me. I thought moving the cooler to the firewall might be the answer. I monitor the oil temperature closely in climb and while cruising down low. Never can I get the cruise temperature below 205 when down low on a hot day. I never have any problem at all at 4500 or higher. Post your results if you mount the cooler on the firewall. There are quite a few posts about this problem if you search "oil temperature".
 
An RV-8 with a parallel valve 360 engine can accommodate either a 9 or 10-row Aero Classics, or a SW-10599R 9-row or SW-8432R two-pass oil cooler on the rear of the cyl #4 baffle all of these are good oil coolers. The Aero Classics are much less money, and if you can fit the 10-row unit, that would be a good choice for the money.
 
I'm in NC, so no I'm not in the deep south, BUT....I have a parallel valve 180 hp IO-360 with Vans standard cooler and it is taped 1/4 shut still today on July 8 (was 1/2 shut in the winter and could have gone more). I have yet to see over 180 deg F.
Usually around 170F.

I cannot argue about the angle valve engines needing a big cooler but I just don't get why anybody with a parallel would need it. :confused:
 
oil cooler

Bill,

I started with the stock cooler and always ran 220-223 down low. I bought the 10 row cooler and installed it and now run around 205 down low on hot days cruising. I've read where some folks have results like you and some with results like me. The logistics of installing the oil cooler is pretty straight forward and I have done all that is obvious to provide good airflow through my cooler.......but down low on hot days I have to watch it. Anywho, I'm glad yours works well; I wish mine did.

David
 
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David,
Yeah, there is variability that we don't understand. I wish we understood what is going on so that we could steer current builders confidently in the right direction. You are a parallel valve motor, right??
 
cooler

Bill,

More specifically, it is an ECI Titan IO 360 with 9 to 1 pistons. No oil squirters though. The engine was built by America's Aircraft Engines in Oklahoma. Its a great engine, just hard to keep cool down low.

EDIT....Sorry, I forgot to answer your question.....it is a parallel valve engine.

David
 
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The frigid north!

We are about 60 miles north of you in Raymond, MS (KJVW) and have the stock oil cooler in the stock rear baffle location on an IO-320 in a 9A. We actually had the opposite problem... getting it warm enough in the winter. My MAX summer temps even in climb out were 185 - Max winter temps were only 160 or so. So, after 2 years and about 400 hours I added the vans louver which allowed me to get the winter temps up a bit. Now when the louver is closed, im getting 180 in the winter and with it open, about 190 when its hot. You are welcome to make a run up to Raymond and look over what we did... 465+ hours and flying GREAT!
 
Piston squirters are one variable.

A friend's radial engine development program found a large drop in oil temperature with better combustion ring sealing. Hot blowby really warms the oil mist flying around in the case.

I've been told that Lycoming increased the leakdown rate of late model lifters in order to move more oil to the top end. Anybody know for sure? More oil to the hot heads would make a difference.

I'd consider a 3" scat tube a bit small for a remote mounted 8432 or 10599 cooler, in particular if it was a long length. A 3" scat would only be 7 sq in vs a cooler face area around 25.5 sq in; 25.5 / 7 = 3.64 ratio. I've been running a 4" sceet with a 10599; 25.5 / 12.56 = 2.0. The new 10611 is about 36 sq in with the same 4" sceet, or 36 / 12.56 = 2.87

aona7s.jpg
 
DEWATSON said:
Bill,
More specifically, it is an ECI Titan IO 360 with 9 to 1 pistons. No oil squirters though. The engine was built by America's Aircraft Engines in Oklahoma. Its a great engine, just hard to keep cool down low.

EDIT....Sorry, I forgot to answer your question.....it is a parallel valve engine.
David
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The ECI Titan without oil squirters is quite a heat producing engine by itself, much more-so that a regular Lycoming IO-360. When you add the squirters, it becomes an oil heating monster, but enjoys 350-360 degree CHTs under high power settings even on a scorching Texas summer day... all that heat gets pulled from the bottom of the pistons and goes into the oil.
 
engine

Neal,

Could you explain why the Titan is more of a heat producer than the Lycoming? They claim that most parts on the two engines are interchangeable. BUT, like you said, I have never had any trouble with CHTs, just oil temperatures.

David
 
I switched to Airflow Systems for the oil cooling on my B?cker (Angle Valve IO360). I fly much slower than an RV (draggy biplane) in the Deep South (GA), so less cooling air.
 
DEWATSON said:
Neal,

Could you explain why the Titan is more of a heat producer than the Lycoming? They claim that most parts on the two engines are interchangeable. BUT, like you said, I have never had any trouble with CHTs, just oil temperatures.

David
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I honestly don't know why... I just know they they do seem to make more heat than a Lyc or a Superior 360 engine.

Just speculation, but maybe just the way the oil splashes around in the crankcase (even without piston oil squirters) that it picks up more heat?

Another friend of mine with an RV-7 equipped with engine built with ECI cases and cylinders also ran high oil temps and good CHTs too.

They are awesome engines, they run great and make gobs of power.
 
OK with stock oil cooler from Van's

I have an RV-8 with a Superior IO-360 with 9 to 1 pistons. I attached my cooler to a 1 inch deep plenum in the standard location on the back of cylinder no. 4. No problems with hot oil. 100* F. plus days in Texas and never above 200* F. oil temperature. Usual temperature is 185 to 190* F. Just another data point.
 
My experience is similar to Bill and Paul. I have the stock Lyc IO-360 M1B with the stock oil cooler on the rear baffle. It is very difficult to get my temps above 180 in the air. It will go higher after landing on a hot day. I usually have a part of it blocked off in the summer and totally blocked in the winter here in Ohio.
 
engine oil cooling

I'm still curious about this. I may be completely wrong, but I was told that the ECI engine is pretty much a clone of the Lycoming. The cylinders, etc. are supposed to be interchangeable. If the case halves are different, it must be inside, hence, maybe the difference in internal oil flow. It doesn't make sense to me, but I've been thick headed once before....maybe twice.

I'm beginning to think that it might be a good idea to put an accurate mechanical temperature gauge on the engine and compare it to what the Dynon is showing. There may be an error in the way the temperature parameters were set up when the Dynon was built. The engine has never appeared to be too hot after a summer afternoon landing. I think I'll install a temporary mechanical oil temperature gauge and run a quick test. There is quite a bit of difference between what others are showing compared to my 225 degree readings. Our setups seem to be close, plus I have the larger cooler.....I just can't get my arms around a 35 to 40 degree difference in the same climate. A new adventure......good deal. Let's get started.
 
My data point:

I have an ECI IO-360, 9:1 pistons, PMags and a constant speed prop all in a 7A. The oil cooler provided by Vans, mounted in the plans location on the baffle behind #4 was nowhere near adequate in Livermore, CA during the summer. After many discussions with Mahlon Russel at Mattituck who built my engine and Pacific Oil Coolers the consensus was to cut a bigger hole in the baffle and fit the largest, high quality oil cooler that would fit. That wound up being the Stewart Warner 10 row unit. It used to be that I was very oil temperature limited and watched oil temps like a hawk. Now it is cylinder temps I look at on a hot day on the second take-off. You can never have too much oil cooling capacity...just let the vernatherm work or block off portions if you don't need it.
 
We upgraded

Our 0-360 180hp TMX with oil squirter definately ran too hot the first year we had it. We upgraded to the aero-classic clone of the SW5499? (the dual pass model) and also reworked our baffling. Solved the problem, rarely see over 190 unless it is a second or third takeoff or after a long taxi.

nice to not worry about oil temp anymore!
 
DanH said:
A friend's radial engine development program found a large drop in oil temperature with better combustion ring sealing. Hot blowby really warms the oil mist flying around in the case.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. My overhauled O-360 has channel-chrome cylinders and never sealed up completely. I use about a quart of oil every 7-8 hrs, have done so for 1100 hrs. CHT's are good, oil temps 205-215 down low pulling some power, with an Aero Classics 9-row cooler on the firewall w/3" SCAT. I'm sure the blowby is the major cause because there seems to be no linear relationship between OAT and oil temp. I have no problems above 4500' or so (190F or less).
 
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