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Avidyne IDF 540 and Dynon Skyview

BobCollins(AA)

BobCollins(AA)

Well Known Member
I have installed the IDF 540 from Avidyne in my RV-7A talking to my 2 Skyview screens. The IDF540 works great and communicate with Skyview. Since I have both of my skyview screens side by side the IDF540 sits on the right side of the panel.
In order to meet the IFR requirements the NAV/STATUS (ie: ENROUTE, APP, LNAV, LPV...) indication should be in view to the pilot within certain parameters. Unfortunately Dynon chose not to display this information on the Skyview however Advance Flight System does. Did I choose the right system ?
 
I've seen quite a few pictures of panels with 430W's etc, which don't meet the "in field of view" requirements. Some even mounted below the throttle. The DARs don't seem to care. The real question is, "Is it difficult or disorienting to reach all the way over to the box to push the buttons/touch the screen, if in IMC?"
 
Most certified navigation boxes have outputs to drive discrete annunciator lights.

Does the Avidyne have those?

If so you could do something as simple as add a few LED's and legend plates or as complex as building your own annunciator panel with LCD screen.

The later may even be able to be driven by some sort of serial output stream if the Avidyne supports such a thing.

Or you could buy a commercial OTS model.
 
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Advance Flight System, which is owned by Dynon, displays the NAV condition of the Avidyne IDF540 to meet IFR requirements so an external display is not required but Dynon does not and I was told by their Tech department that Dynon is not going to provide this info on their Skyview Display which I find quite disconcerting.
 
The IFD540 is pretty much pin-identical to the Garmin GNS 530W units. All existing Annunciators will work and there are the same pinouts for discrete grounding (up to 500ma) for lamps/leds, contact inputs to EFIS, etc.
 
AllThumbs said:
The IFD540 is pretty much pin-identical to the Garmin GNS 530W units. All existing Annunciators will work and there are the same pinouts for discrete grounding (up to 500ma) for lamps/leds, contact inputs to EFIS, etc.
Click to expand...

I have followed the instructions in the Dynon install manual for the Garmin GNS 530W as you mentioned but the NAV STATUS is not shown on the Skyview and it is not a planned update from Dynon as I was told by their Tech department.
The info is available from IFD540 but Dynon does not use it . This info is very important to be in your Field of View.

Advance Flight System, which is owned by Dynon, shows the NAV STATUS of the IFD540 on their display.
 
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I wasn't referring to interfacing specifically to a Skyview, just that the IFD540 does preserve the Garmin 530's ability to simply ground a lamp so something can light up to annunciate a condition. For example:

VLOC, GPS, Waypoint, Terminal, Approach, Message, OBS, Auto, Integrity, LNAV GPS Select, ILS/GPS Approach
 
Bob,
As has been mentioned, you only need a external indicator panel if the LEFT edge of the navigator is 12.1" or more away from the center of the pilot's primary view centerline. Put the PFD on the right of your EFIS screen, and the navigator would need to be quite far away for this to be met.

Because of this, we haven't received a lot of interest in us displaying the annunciations from the GPS, which are otherwise displayed right on the GPS screen. That's the main reason we haven't done it- most panels don't need it.

We do show many of the annunciations however just in the way we naturally work:

VLOC / GPS - This is the color of your HSI and the name of it. You can't be looking at a VOR and think it's a GPS and vice versa, like you could on a mechanical CDI, which is why you needed this light.

TERM / APR - we show the scale of the HSI right on the HSI, which is the indication of what mode you are in.

WPT- We calculate this ourselves and can give a visual and audio announcement. It's not exactly an annunciation from the navigator though.

Thus, the ones we don't show are INTEG, MSG, and WPT. You can wire these direct to inputs on the EMS and display them on the screen if you wish, and even trigger an audio alert.

I'm 97% sure the 430W/530W didn't have requirements for annunciations for LNAV / LPV, just TERM and APPR, which we do handle. You can of course tell if you have vertical guidance because the GP needle will flag (disappear) if you don't.

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
 
The Garmin GNS530 Installation Manual has an Appendix B FAA letter that waives the requirement for external annunciation based on the GNS530s own display of the information as long as it is in the pilot's normal field of view. Being as the IFD540 is plug and play for the GNS530 the same criteria should apply. I would expect Avidyne to have a similar letter after all the time they took to get the unit certified.

I am using a IDF540 with a Dynon Skyview, however mine is center mounted on the panel so viewing angles are not an issue. I had thought about adding an annunciator panel, however open panel space is already at a premium.

John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
 
Both of my Dynon 10" Skyview screens are side by side to match the picture I had and used to while I was flying proffessionally so my IFR navigator is outside of my Field of View. I will have to find a way to bring the info into my field of view. I should be able to accomplish that by using various inputs on the Dynon system but it would have been simpler if the info was pulled directly through Arinc 429 connection like Advance Flight System does.
 
Bob,
Is this a certified aircraft requirement or experimental requirement or both.

What I am gathering from the Dynon rep is that the edge of the navigator has to be within that 12 inches. From what I have seen with the GTN650 I just installed is all the settings that Ian at Dynon spoke of... The important one is the term annunciation which has to be displayed during an GPS procedure. But you can see the green icon on the GTN just fine.

I too am pushing the limit as mine is installed under my D700 which is right of center by about 3 inches
Jack
 
Smilin' Jack said:
Bob,
Is this a certified aircraft requirement or experimental requirement or both.

I too am pushing the limit as mine is installed under my D700 which is right of center by about 3 inches
Jack
Click to expand...

Since your operating limits require you to follow the FAR equipment requirements for ifr operation, the answer is "both".
Just as the current mis-understanding over ADSB, you do NOT have to use TSO'd equipment; but the equipment you do use must meet the TSO standards (get the difference?). As a practical manner it is not possible for the average owner to show the latter, so we buy TSO'd equipment. Those TSOs in turn require installations in accordance with the installation manual. If your GTN is completely below the level of the attitude indicator you are probably not in compliance with the manual. Can you show that you meet the performance standard, e.g., that the annunciators are in fact within your field of view? I don't know, nor do I know how one would go about this if questioned by the FAA. As I noted previously, I have never seen a DAR question this, even on units that were obviously not within the specified distance to the center line of vision. But you don't want to be the test case, either.
 
BobCollins(AA) said:
Both of my Dynon 10" Skyview screens are side by side to match the picture I had and used to while I was flying proffessionally so my IFR navigator is outside of my Field of View. I will have to find a way to bring the info into my field of view. I should be able to accomplish that by using various inputs on the Dynon system but it would have been simpler if the info was pulled directly through Arinc 429 connection like Advance Flight System does.
Click to expand...

So, I think you've answered your own original question. But don't feel too bad. Truth is, designing your own modern panel involves so many interconnects that it's easy to overlook something. I myself thought I had a huge number of serial ports (8 on a GRT HX), so I didn't really look too hard at the details. In the end I had enough, but there was only one not used - not exactly a huge number!
 
Bob T is spot on here, and Bob C is also correct in that he'll need to do something to be "legal". Moving the location of the PFD on the display has little affect on that because the requirement is based on the pilot field of view, not the location of the PFD. As others have mentioned, wiring in annunciators is no big deal and not a difficult task...so that's always an option.

Cheers,
Stein
 
That information should be on Skyview since it is coming across on the Airinc bus and Advance Flight System understood the need for this info and therefore provided on their display. Unless I spend a lot more money I will not be able to fly IFR . I am very disappointed ..
 
Maybe I missed it but I don't see any "field of view" requirement specified in the GTN install manual. It talks about things being in the "pilots field of view", but nowhere in the manual is the field of view actually defined.

The GTN STC install document has very specific field of view requirements, but being that there is no STC here thats irrelevent.

So the way I see it, it's up to the installer to determine if the installation meets the "field of view" requirement (there is no requirement specified so it should be easy to meet).

Edit: thought we talking about the GTN series, disregard this for the Avidyne.
 
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BobCollins(AA) said:
That information should be on Skyview since it is coming across on the Airinc bus and Advance Flight System understood the need for this info and therefore provided on their display. Unless I spend a lot more money I will not be able to fly IFR . I am very disappointed ..
Click to expand...

Bob, Though I might have recommended a different layout of your panel, I can understand why you placed them how you did. That said, the cost to "fix" it should literally be dozens of dollars or less for some good lights, a unibit for a hole, some wire and a few pins plus a few hours of time. The dealer you bought your stuff from should even be able to make you a pigtail harness with the lights on it relatively cheaply I'd think.

Cheers,
Stein
 
BobCollins(AA) said:
That information should be on Skyview since it is coming across on the Airinc bus and Advance Flight System understood the need for this info and therefore provided on their display. Unless I spend a lot more money I will not be able to fly IFR . I am very disappointed ..
Click to expand...

I understand your disappointment but the Skyview is what it is. Maybe they should have it on their display but they don't. Are you opposed to an LED annunciator panel? Your labor aside, you could make one for probably less than $10. It would sure be a lot easier than moving any hardware around or spending a bunch more money.
 
This a picture of my cockpit you can see my IFR GPS is out of my field of view.
2sagkrd.jpg
 
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I have found some inexpensive LED annunciators that will give me the info I need. Thanks to everyone for their inputs
 
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BobCollins(AA) said:
This is the additional panel I have to purchase (IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards
700.00) and install on my panel in order to comply with IFR requirements when installing a IFR Navigator if the unit is not in the pilot field of view. That additional expense would not be required if Dynon would show that info in the Skyview like Advance Flight System does .
Click to expand...

Bob,

Respectfully, multiple folks (including some very knowledgeable ones like Stein) have correctly mentioned that you do not need to spend $700 to get this kind of annunciation within your field of view. The IFD540 is capable of driving any type of external LEDs that you would like to mount in the panel, whether they be a set of cheap 10-cent LEDs from your local electronics store, a pre-made certified $700 job (which is simply a bunch of very similar LEDs in a nice package with a huge price tag slapped on it), or anything in between. Some have even offered to make you a harness with pins to plug in to the IFD540 tray connectors. I would bet that a nice looking solution could be built and installed for less than $10 in parts if you use wire scraps that you probably already have lying around.

Understandably, either solution is extra work that you had not planned and a different-looking panel than you wanted. However it is not Dynon's fault for not providing a feature that they never advertised.

You could always fly your plane from the right seat when IFR and be in compliance for free and with no additional work.
 
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Sell the Dynon and go with AFS is this is such a big deal to you. Several easy ways to fix this have been proposed.
 
I think we have him sorted out. A few simple LED annunciators with the appropriate labels/wires/pins in them and he'll be good to go. A wee bit of wiring (few wires with pins on the ends), and all's well that end's well!

Cheers,
Stein
 
As you know Stein, Most Fed's don't even know this regulation. The only time it would come to play is if you crashed on an approach otherwise I don't think a person would ever be cited. I can not even ever remember on a ramp check 2 in my life where the inspector ever looked inside the aircraft. nor have I ever heard of it. I guess if your applying for STC's to retro fit Certified aircraft... Then the FAA's avionics inspector would be very interested in such an installation... It just does not happen and I would really be interested if anyone on this board every had their instrument installation verified.... I doubt it. You being in the avionics business have to know this... It is like us knowing all the parts of CFR's no one does. We use what applies to us.

Just my opinion.

Jack
 
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