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Planning Wing Kit Purchase

L

LuisR

Well Known Member
Hello RV friends,

I'm now on "Empennage Attach" section of the tailbone. Thought now would be a good time to reach out to VAF veterans for some help on wing kit build.

I plan on an IFR GLASS panel (probably Garmin) with autopilot. Also plan on converting the outer leading edge of the wings into tanks for long country flights.

Aside form ordering the wing kit? What else should I be looking at ordering with the kit from VANS Aircraft. What else should I order from other venders for the wing build?

Only thing I can think of is the GRETZ pitot mast. Was thinking of picking up wing tip lights later in the build to await newer developments.

I'm in no hurry to finish the build as I am paying as I go and don't own a bank. Completion is somewhere 10+ years away.

Thanks

Luis
 
Wing

I went with the gretz pitot mast and was going to get the pitot probe as well. I changed my mind and went with garmin. The gretz mast needs to be painted. If I were to do it again, I would have bought the anodized aluminum mast. After speaking with garmin, I went with the unregulated heated pitot.

I ordered the Vans electric aileron trim kit with the wings. Unfortunately, I went ahead and installed it in the left wing. I am now going to be using the garmin equipment, and it makes more sense to have the trim in the right wing, near the roll servo, as the two will be wired together.

I ordered the Aeroled nav/strobe/tail lights from Vans as well...they had the best price I could find at the time.

I also got the Duckworks HID kit from Vans. Doing it over, I would have just bought the ductworks mounting kit. I plan on using the Baja Designs LEDs for landing lights on the duckworks mount. Anyone need a set of HIDs?

I went with the SafeAir 1 ER tanks for extra fuel...

Vans also sells wingtip lights, which I purchased but not sure I will use...

I went with Cee Bailey transparencies for all windows and wingtip covers...
 
The only decision that you have to make is what fuel senders you want to use. The ones that come with the kit work just fine with the understanding they're not too accurate from 3/4-Full. But with a fuel flow indicator, not a big deal.

I installed a low fuel sensor, which is clearly not a required function. The one I purchased is from AircraftExtras. It works as advertised.

http://www.aircraftextras.com/FuelSensor1.htm

Things like aileron trim and autopilot servos can be easily installed after the wings are built. So you don't have to commit to an AP vendor yet.

I would recommend installing a 3/4" conduit to pull wiring through. Leave a draw string in the conduit for adding wires later. The black corrugated material Vans sells works well.
 
I like the low fuel light. Must really get your attention at night. Thanks for pointing that option out.

With the pitot mast, whats the reason to go with he aluminum mount verses the standard GRETZ mount? Don't they both get painted later anyway?

Fuel sender; I'm leaning towards the capacitance senders. Any recommendations on who to buy those from?

Fuel Caps; Are there nicer caps? I recall some "upgrade" the caps. Why and to what?


Thanks for the tips so far.
 
Van's sells some upgraded locking fuel caps. Beyond a doubt the best extra I purchased. not the RV-14 caps, but the metal ones."FUEL CAP DELUX W/LOCK"
 
+1

Zuldarin said:
Van's sells some upgraded locking fuel caps. Beyond a doubt the best extra I purchased. not the RV-14 caps, but the metal ones."FUEL CAP DELUX W/LOCK"
Click to expand...

I agree. You have to modify the flange to the curvature of the fuel tank, but a belt sander makes short work of it.
 
Fuel senders

I got my capacitance senders from Grand Rapids and they were pre bent for the -10. (I have the QB wings).
 
I see cleaveland tools has a pitot mast. There is no description or review on their website. Right now I'm leaning Gretz Pitot mast. What do all think of the cleaveland pitot mast?
 
There are a number of Pitot masts out there and they should all work fine. That is one of the things that is pretty standard across the industry. With your build timeframe, I wouldn't order anything extra except maybe the fuel senders, but even that is a long way off. I'd just get the wing kit and hold off until the other stuff is needed. Also, whatever you do, don't order and auto pilot servo or install kit. Who knows what will be available in 10 years. There are way too many serv?s that have been sold cheap because the builder decided to go a different route. The servos can be installed in the wing in 20 minutes with a completely closed up wing on a stand.
 
I'll also share the list of non-kit-standard things I got for/did on/will do on the wings:
  • Gretz pitot mast
  • Garmin GAP26 heated regulated pitot
  • AoA pressure line
  • Conduit for the wires
  • Clickbond fasteners (CB4020) for a second conduit (to split power from other signals)
  • Aveo Ziptips wing tips (I excluded the Van's wingtips from the order, and I'm also going to remove the wider part of the bottom rudder fairing that's meant for a light, in favor of this)
  • Clickbond wingtip attachment kit
  • Archer wingtip NAV antenna
  • Fuel return line
  • GSA28 servo (as someone mentioned, electric trim went to the right wing for that reason)
  • GMU22 magnetometer in the wingtip
  • Newton locking fuel caps
  • OAT probe
  • Static wicks
  • Little fairings for the fuel drains from AircraftExtras
  • Cleaveland machined tie-down rings
  • WIP: I'm attaching a small (but strong) magnet to my pitot cover, and putting a small magnetic switch inside the mast so that I get a warning on the EFIS if it's still on. Still need to do some testing on the effect of pitot heat on that switch/wires.
  • I *skipped* installing the standard stall warning, in favor of the AoA probe
  • I got a pair of speed brakes from Precise Flight, actually tried to figure out how to install them, realized it'd be major surgery on the wing, and then returned those.
  • If CiES comes out with their improved fuel level sender, I may replace the standard senders with those - for now I'm using standard senders, didn't want to bother with capacitive.
  • I considered the icing detectors from either Aircraft Extras or SafeFlight, and decided not to have them. I will have ice lights on the fuselage (from Aveo).

There's obviously reasons to do all of the above differently, but those were my decisions. Also, needless to say, I enjoy the process of customizing many parts of the build, though it does take a *lot* of extra time.
 
Definitely

"...I enjoy the process of customizing many parts of the build, though it does take a *lot* of extra time..."

That's the truth!
 
Additional Items to purchase with wings:

  1. Gretz Pitot Mast
  2. Conduit
  3. 4 Fuel Tank Caps (THAT SEAL!!) (Need a purchase source)
  4. 4 Fuel Capacitance Senders (need a Purchase source)

I'll get lights, pitot tube, antennas, etc... later when doing the panel. Will leave the wing bottom skin clecoed if need be. I'm a LONG ways before needing avionics and will wait to the VERY last minute to purchase. I plan to hang engine before purchasing electronics.

Do the Vans delux fuel caps have good seals to prevent the outboard leading edge tanks from overflowing the inboard tanks?

Doesn't look like I can order the capacitance fuel sender from grand rapids website. Anyone else sell these senders. Are these senders universal and work with all the EFISs?
 
Step back for a minute

Luis,

A lot of great ideas and modifications so far. As you filter through all these, some thoughts:
- The per plans RV-10 wing is a good design.
- Options other than nutplates for stuff like wingtips are ok, but nutplates work as well.
- I have used the Van's fuel floats for 13 years on an RV-8A, and 4 years on the RV-10. They have been trouble free and calibrate to withing a gallon of actual (if you are using any of the current EFIS systems).
- The stock Van's fuel caps will leak unless you adjust them. I find they work well. I would avoid the new plastic caps like Van's is selling with the RV-14 kits.
- You should decide on what pitot you want as some (like the SkyView AOA pitot) have a pitot heat controller that mounts near the pitot. This is easier to install before the bottom skins get put on.
- If you already decided on what Autopilot you want, go ahead and get the roll install kit and put it in.
- If you install a single 1/2" id poly pipe (Lowes) through the wing rib holes instead of the grommets, you will have what you need to do your wing wiring when ever you are ready.
- The Van's provided Landing Lights are meager, but do what I need them to do. You might what to just put that in for now and save a pile of cash. Adding a fancy LED landing light later is always an option, and the prices will only come down.
- I offer the AeroLED nav lights are a good. You can add them later so just running a single three #20 conductor shielded wire to each wingtip now sets you up.
- I also recommend a wingtip VOR/ILS antenna (but I make my own).
- I agree that you should skip installing the standard stall warning. The SkyView AOA works quite well for audio alert.
- I also added a 1/4" fuel line return fitting to the left tank on the RV-10 in case I very found a need. I have not - but it is cheap and easy to do when building the tanks. It is simply capped off on the RV-10 but is connected to the purge return line on the RV-8A (it has the AFP fuel injection system). I used it for shutdown and perhaps twice a year for a hot start. If you get the AFP system you should consider having this line (but just for one tank).

Carl
 
Wing tip kit

This is the place to get the wingtip kit:

https://www.theflightshop.com/Cataspx65.html

Basically, everything you need to use click bond nut plates to attach the wingtips. The idea is that you bond the nut plates to the wingtip flange instead of riveting standard nut plates. Install is MUCH faster as you only need to prepare the screw hole then bond the nut plates in place using the supplied adhesive. You are also only putting 1/3 the huber of holes in the flange.

Saw the system at Oshkosh several years ago and knew that was the way I was going to go...

The folks at The Flight Shop are great to work with, as well...
 
Luis,

Get RV-9 capacitive probes and make new plates to fit the RV-10 tanks. Ed Kranz has a great writeup about this along with downloadable pdf templates on his site here:
http://www.goodplaneliving.com/capacitive-fuel-level-senders/

You will need a capacitive sensor box to go with it that converts the capacitance to voltage for the efis, but you can worry about that later.

If you are on a budget or just want to have the satisfaction of building them yourself, you can make all of your nav/strobe and landing lights, except maybe the tail strobe. I'll show you mine, they work great.
Get the Duckworks kit for landing lights. Most RV-10s have them. It's difficult to install proper landing lights under the wingtip lenses.

I have the Andair fuel caps and they are awesome, and require no modification, you just need to proseal its flange into the original tank flange. Having lockable caps is not practical sometimes. On fly-ins like OSH you need to be there to fuel your plane. There's no no-key option.

There's really no need for stall warning if you opt for angle of attack, which I recommend you do.

The wingtips are held on by nutplates and #6 countersunk screws. ClickBond makes glueable nutplates that attach to the fiberglass wingtips. I used a bunch of their standoffs in my plane to mount wire bundles to. Good stuff but not cheap.
Riveted nutplates are perfectly fine there. With a nutplate jig it goes real fast. Get a couple of nutplate jigs if you don't have them yet. You'll need #8 and #6.

Lenny
 
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Lenny Iszak said:
Luis,

Get RV-9 capacitive probes and make new plates to fit the RV-10 tanks. Ed Kranz has a great writeup about this along with downloadable pdf templates on his site here:
http://www.goodplaneliving.com/capacitive-fuel-level-senders/
Click to expand...

That is much better!! Thanks for pointing out the plates. I dont see the capacitive fuel sensor kit on their web site. Is this something they still sell and I just have to call them for?


Lenny Iszak said:
You will need a capacitive sensor box to go with it that converts the capacitance to voltage for the efis, but you can worry about that later.
Click to expand...

Yup...I'll get that later

Lenny Iszak said:
If you are on a budget or just want to have the satisfaction of building them yourself, you can make all of your nav/strobe and landing lights, except maybe the tail strobe. I'll show you mine, they work great.
Get the Duckworks kit for landing lights. Most RV-10s have them. It's difficult to install proper landing lights under the wingtip lenses.
Click to expand...

Wont get the any lights yet until after make the outboard fuel tank. Not sure if a Duckworks kit will fit between the two tanks. I have seen another light that goes into the bottom cowl. May end up fabing up my own taxi and landing light on the bottom cowl. That is a ways away on the list past the fusalage kit.



I have the Andair fuel caps and they are awesome, and require no modification, you just need to proseal its flange into the original tank flange. Having lockable caps is not practical sometimes. On fly-ins like OSH you need to be there to fuel your plane. There's no no-key option.

Lenny Iszak said:
There's really no need for stall warning if you opt for angle of attack, which I recommend you do.
Click to expand...

Yup. I don't plan on installing the factory stall horn. Will do AOA.

Lenny Iszak said:
The wingtips are held on by nutplates and #6 countersunk screws. ClickBond makes glueable nutplates that attach to the fiberglass wingtips. I used a bunch of their standoffs in my plane to mount wire bundles to. Good stuff but not cheap.
Riveted nutplates are perfectly fine there. With a nutplate jig it goes real fast. Get a couple of nutplate jigs if you don't have them yet. You'll need #8 and #6.
Lenny
Click to expand...


With the clickbond, you still see the screws on the outside right? If so, yea, I'll just stick with the plans on the tips. Will add nutplate jigs to the list.
 
I clouldn't find the RV-9 capacitive plates on Van's site either, give them a call.

ClickBond does make the nutplate install much quicker, there's a whole bunch of them, but it looks like you are not planning to beat any speed record, and all those nutplates and rivets are already included in the kit.
One tip there. Don't use the countersink bits you use on aluminum. Permagrit countersink bits work way better on fiberglass:

http://www.permagrit.com/index.php?cPath=69_88

I think I got mine from Avery Tools, not sure who sells them now.

The screws will still be there either way, there's no cosmetic difference. You can get nicer looking torx stainless screws from Micro Fasteners:

http://www.microfasteners.com/fcmxs...ad-6-lobe-drive-machine-screws-stainless.html

A quick thought about outboard tanks. While a few RV-10s have them, I don't know if anyone has done any real engineering on them. If you are able to run LOP (electronic ignition + balanced injector nozzles), you can cruise at 165 knots on 10.5 gal/hour. That's well over 5 hours of flying. By that time you get tired, hungry, need a bathroom break, and it's not healthy to sit for that long in one place anyway. Just saying....

Lenny
 
Great tip on on the countersink!!!! Thanks.....

I'm one of those types that drives until I HAVE TO STOP TO FUEL on long trips. My Diesel jetta gets some 800-900 miles per tank!! I drove straight to TN once non stop in my jetta from South FL. It was great!

So thats where the long range fuel tanks idea comes from. Still not set in stone.
 
Wingtip hinges

Hi Luis
Might be worth considering using hinges to attach your wingtips.
I did it on my -7 and its one of the best mods I made.
Super neat and only takes a matter of seconds to remove or install.
Plenty of write ups about for it.
Cheers
 
LuisR said:
Great tip on on the countersink!!!! Thanks.....

I'm one of those types that drives until I HAVE TO STOP TO FUEL on long trips. My Diesel jetta gets some 800-900 miles per tank!! I drove straight to TN once non stop in my jetta from South FL. It was great!

So thats where the long range fuel tanks idea comes from. Still not set in stone.
Click to expand...

As previously stated, there seems to be little or no engineering examination of adding fuel tanks to the wing. Add to that the cost and complexity and perhaps you should look to other options for those few times you want more that 5+ hours of fuel. I would suspect adding such tanks could also scare off potential buyers if you ever need to sell the plane. It would me.

There are quality ferry tanks available that can be added in place of the rear seats, or if you want you can make perfectly fitting tanks out of carbon fiber. I watched my neighbor Bill Harrelson make five such tanks to fit inside his Lancair 4 he flew over both the North and South poles. Now the tanks are sitting on a shelf if he ever wants to so another long haul trip (he used three of these tanks to make a vacation trip to New Zealand - the extra space was so his wife could go with him).

Carl
 
+1

Richard Connell said:
Hi Luis
Might be worth considering using hinges to attach your wingtips.
I did it on my -7 and its one of the best mods I made.
Super neat and only takes a matter of seconds to remove or install.
Plenty of write ups about for it.
Cheers
Click to expand...

I also did the hinge method and really like 1) how they look and 2) how easily they go on and off.
 
1 - How much pro seal do I need to complete the standard fuel tanks?
2 - What size conduit fit the standard conduit holes?
3 - How many feet of conduit should I order for wings and fuse? (plan to buy big batch).
4 - Do the kit lead times include the shipping time? If not, how long does shipping take generally to S. FL?

Thanks
 
Last edited:
LuisR said:
1 - How much pro seal do I need to complete the standard fuel tanks?
2 - What size conduit fit the standard conduit holes?
3 - How many feet of conduit should I order for wings and fuse? (plan to buy big batch).
4 - Do the kit lead times include the shipping time? If not, how long does shipping take generally to S. FL?

Thanks
Click to expand...

1) Most folks would use >1 quart, so buy 2.
2) IIRC, those are 3/4" holes. There is no need to buy anything for those holes now.
3) I've found that snap bushings are much easier to work with than conduit. I'd recommend only using the conduit for the runs under the rear seats and baggage compartment. In that case, you're probably looking at 40' max, probably less. No need to order now...
4) Shipping is a week or two if you use a regular carrier. If you use someone like Partain, it could take weeks longer because they kind of traipse back and forth across the country, rather than node to node on a hub and spoke system.

One more note: Kit delivery times are ballpark estimates - there can be a lot of variation. Call Van's for the real timeframe.

A second note: Up front purchases satisfy some psychological need (speaking for myself), but unless you're getting a screaming deal, you're gonna change your mind on some things and be stuck with some leftovers. Buy what you need when you need it...
 
Last edited:
LuisR said:
1 - How much pro seal do I need to complete the standard fuel tanks?
Click to expand...

I'll let others comment on the quantity since I did a QuickBuild :) but be mindful of the expiration date for sealants - you can't buy them with the kit then hope it'll still be usable a year later. I usually buy sealant only when I get to the point of using it.

LuisR said:
2 - What size conduit fit the standard conduit holes?
Click to expand...

There are no "standard conduit holes" :) The holes that come in the quickbuilds (and that plans tell you to enlarge yourself) are 5/8" and meant for plain wires bundled together without any conduit, but another Van's document lets you further enlarge them to 3/4" - that is enough to snuggly fit the conduits sold by Van's, which afaik are .81 diameter.

LuisR said:
4 - Do the kit lead times include the shipping time? If not, how long does shipping take generally to S. FL?
Click to expand...

That's a question you can ask Van's, but the lead times themselves are not precise and just an estimate. Shipping from OR took about 5 days for me (in CA).
 
Thanks for the responses and suggestion everyone.

Any Wing specific tools I should have? I'm ordering the 12" back rivet set and back riveting bucking bar.
 
LuisR said:
Any Wing specific tools I should have? I'm ordering the 12" back rivet set and back riveting bucking bar.
Click to expand...

Don't bother. Even though sage advice is to back rivet the wing top skin, I consistently get better results doing standard swivel flush rivet head and my favorite bucking bar.

Carl
 
Any recommendations where to get nut plate jigs and which type I can anticipate using on the wing and fuse? Thanks
 
LuisR said:
Any recommendations where to get nut plate jigs and which type I can anticipate using on the wing and fuse? Thanks
Click to expand...

You really don't need a special jig as a regular nutplate works just fine for the purpose. But if really want one the Yard Store and Cleaveland Tools, among others, carry them.

Also no need for special cutters for the counter sinks as the ones you already have will do the job just fine. If you plan on buildings multiple kits then yeah, it might make more sense to have FG only tools, but for one kit you can get by without having the perfect tool for each task. My $.02.
 
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