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The all new Vertical Power Primary Power System (PPS)

cjensen

Well Known Member
News from Astronics Ballard Technology! The Vertical Power Primary Power System was officially launched at Sun N Fun last week, and for those of you that weren't able to be at the show to see it in person, here are a couple of pics and some details.

The front or top side of the new case, this is a 3D printing of the new product from the CAD drawings.

AECA71C3-DEEF-4280-A73E-70EFE45A425C_zpshnaz53qc.jpg


Pretty self explanatory with everything labeled for easy installation and hookups.

The back or bottom of the case...here we have the main buss out lug and a canon plug for data and possible low power (start input and alt field wire will use this plug).

BF89C64B-C411-4B8B-A7C3-92DA04612B4C_zpsidgjt4mt.jpg


And here is the info board from the show-

316E1845-7E70-4A8C-8A77-473FB4155FD4_zpseu40jyns.jpg


I know there will be many questions coming...and I will answer all of them as best I can. ONE THING THOUGH...I AM LEAVING ON VACATION TONIGHT UNTIL MAY 11TH, SO PLEASE KEEP THAT IN MIND. I wanted to get this out there for you all to see that it's real!

Beta testing is slated to begin in July with production expected after that period, which is approximately 3 months. I want about 500 hours of test time on the beta units before it is released.

Price...well, we still don't know exactly where that will be at this time because we still have some minor engineering to iron out (alt field wire hookup is one), but as soon as I know, I will post the info. There are some numbers floating around in the $1200-1800 range for single and dual battery versions respectfully, but we just don't know for sure yet. It will be worth it though, I promise!

Size...Production prototype is 8.6" x 4.7" x 1.5".

More to come!
 
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That barrel connector will be a lot of fun to wire up...not

Not to mention this appears to be a $1200 solution to a <$200 problem. I was sincerely hoping the price point would be competitive, but wow.

And if the back plate is aluminum, which it appears to be, then I also question the assertion that firewall integrity is maintained.
 
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That barrel connector will be a lot of fun to wire up...not

We will more than likely have a harness available for that connector. They actually aren't all that bad, but for those that want to skip that, we plan to make that available.
 
Not to mention this appears to be a $1200 solution to a <$200 problem. I was sincerely hoping the price point would be competitive, but wow.

And if the back plate is aluminum, which it appears to be, then I also question the assertion that firewall integrity is maintained.

In order to make this as reliable as possible, we went with top of the line components...we want you to use this and never have to send it back for repair. Yes it's more expensive...but we expect it to perform at the price point too.

The unit will be completely tested for all firewall conditions including flammability, vibration, and temperature, among a menu of other tests.

This is intended to be an absolutely superior product to what we are replacing and do the same thing the VPX did...completely modernize and simplify this system.
 
You know what guys - there's a reason why we chose to fly EXPERIMENTAL aircraft - there's something fundamentally WRONG with us ! As my brethren that will not venture away from their Pipers and Cessnas and Mooneys have repeatedly told me. Let's keep that in mind whenever we start to look at something just a little different and new.
 
Not to mention this appears to be a $1200 solution to a <$200 problem. I was sincerely hoping the price point would be competitive, but wow.

And if the back plate is aluminum, which it appears to be, then I also question the assertion that firewall integrity is maintained.

How much is your time worth?
 
Not to mention this appears to be a $1200 solution to a <$200 problem. I was sincerely hoping the price point would be competitive, but wow.

Yep - my thought as well. Wiring up this section of the firewall was really pretty quick and easy.
 
Yep - my thought as well. Wiring up this section of the firewall was really pretty quick and easy.

...and this will be quicker and easier. ;) :D

BUT, it's not just about time. It's not just about money. It's not just about the solution to a problem. What we are doing is making it better...overall. Modern. Reliable. Safer. Those are the things we are going for here and while price is a big factor when choosing products, we really feel this one will be worth every penny.
 
Wasn't trying to push anyone's buttons here...just letting people know about the new product, what it is and why.
 
If you're building an airplane not much .... :D

Well played good sir. ;)

You know what... never mind. I suppose I have nothing constructive to add to this, so I'll butt out. I just get a little tired of hearing the old "how much is your time worth" justification when we're building a plane. By that standard a completed RV should sell for about the cost of a new PC-12.

You say butt out, but then post (quite a long diatribe).

If you don't like it, don't buy it. If the old stuff is so great we should all be running around with bubble compasses using ADF's. A dynon D10 gives the same attitude as a six steam gauges, why evolve? Why are you building a metal airplane when tube/fabric/wood worked so well for decades?

Unless you're paying yourself $2000/hour... it's going to be hard to hit that PC-12 price point. :D

If I make $128/hour at work, this saves me 6-8 hours of work, a few more holes in the firewall, and easier wiring down the road... I come out ahead. Not to mention the info it provides. I mean why buy anything VP at all when circuit breakers work just fine. Or fuses for that matter! I think it's pretty cool, and if/when I build again will be all over it or it's next generation upgrade. I personally hated installing decades old relays, shunts and switches on my firewall when I knew there was technology out there that could provide a more elegant solution.

So much time and weight saved, and money spent! The Horror!!!

DSC_0004-1.jpg
 
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...and this will be quicker and easier. ;) :D

BUT, it's not just about time. It's not just about money. It's not just about the solution to a problem. What we are doing is making it better...overall. Modern. Reliable. Safer. Those are the things we are going for here and while price is a big factor when choosing products, we really feel this one will be worth every penny.

Chad, I like this post. I like anything that improves reliablity and of course safety. Nice product.

A long time ago I complained about Bombardier selling old junk! While Dassault and Gulfstream were building next gen stuff!

We have to "Think" and move technology forward and thats what I love about experimental aviation!

Good job!
 
You say butt out, but then post (quite a long diatribe).
Diatribe? Hardly. If you want the product, then by all means feel free to buy it, install it, love it. What I said was I get a little tired of hearing the old "how much is your time worth" argument.

It would be silly to base my decisions off what I make when I'm working, since I don't spend my employer's time working on my airplane. That's my time, and I decide what it's worth. That, in case it was too obscure, was my point.

And really... a diatribe? That's a little harsh, don't you think? It was maybe more of a rambling, perhaps even a minor rant. But not a diatribe.

:)
 
I think it's hard to make the reliability argument when you haven't built a production unit, or done any testing.

Paige

Not at all. The technology they are using is nothing that new. The reliability of the solid state relays vs old fashioned solenoids can easily established.

For some people this will be worth it. For others, not. To each his own. I applaud their innovation. I do think they will have an uphill battle selling it for $1500 but
what do I know. I don't see the point of trashing it. Let the market pass judgement. It is never wrong.
 
You know what... never mind. I suppose I have nothing constructive to add to this, so I'll butt out. I just get a little tired of hearing the old "how much is your time worth" justification when we're building a plane. By that standard a completed RV should sell for about the cost of a new PC-12.

It's the same logic that Vans used in developing the QB kit. Or the logic of buying a brand new engine instead of overhauling one. Some people, actually a lot of people, prefer to spend more and save time. it is a very valid pount of view and it should not offend anyone.
 
I like the look of it. It looks sleek and clean. It will be something I consider when I get to that stage. I look forward to more information as it comes out.
 
Well Dale, by the looks of Sig600's panel, money is the least of his worries ;):D

HAHAHA - nearly spit my coffee! That is what I was thinking, I wanna see SIG's first install report. Show quality for sure.

I think it's hard to make the reliability argument when you haven't built a production unit, or done any testing.

Paige

Testing - well I am sure they have done testing, but show me the validations list of abuse tolerance tests. Extensive to be sure. What if one with a dead battery gets cross polarity charged with a jumper? Solid state has to be made abuse tolerant, after that it is bullet proof.

The technology is great, but I am a little surprised it is a box "with everything" for a "just the basics" market. People will buy value, they make mistakes, but success of a product is value. Vans airplanes are value products. His company is built on that. Low cost, minimal requirements, and good functionality seems to me the RV market.

Applaud this company for continuing its theme of solid state - it truly is the next generation of hardware for airplanes . . . extended to the power side. Using proven base technology - great utility, outstanding reliability potential. Imagine 2000hrs with no electrical issues. Now, sell us on its toughness and reliability.

Bravo Vertical Power!
 
RV-10 Install

So what are your thoughts about an RV-10 install considering the battery is in the back...sounds like you will still need a contactor in the back with the battery...
 
Technology

There are people who swear by new technology and some who swear at it.

I am of the belief that simpler is better (KISS). Take our latest generation of cars. Lots of electronics and only the dealerships have the secret sauce to fix them.

What I like about my plane is that I can actually work on it and debug most of the systems. Sure some of the electronics (I have Dynon and Garmin) may have to be returned if not working but the fundamentals that keep the plane flying are extremely simple. So if my Dynon and Garmin stop working in flight, I can keep flying. When on the ground I can debug just about any engine/ignition problem. If there is a problem the ignition parts, they are inexpensive and readily available.

Technology improvements are great but they have to bring greater functionality, reliability or value. If they don?t, I don?t believe they are worth the time or money.
 
Good product

Keep in mind this will not be released until it has sufficient time in service with test units. Things are always evolving. Some embrace it some don't.

The PPS will save some install time, although to most it is not a big factor. I know people have mentioned the issue "what if it fails?" We can apply that logic to anything. In reality how many failures have occurred with a master relay and start relay? Not many.

Everybody was concerned about the VPX being the internet popular, "single point of failure." That has not materialized. Conventional breakers are old school but still valid. Too me a panel looks a little strange with all the modern glass then a panel full of old school breakers.

I will say the price of the PPS might be a limiter for many. I was hoping in the $500-$600 range. Especially since doing it with a start relay and master relay will only be about $100.

Lets see how it plays out. I commend them for modernizing and coming up with new solutions.
 
There are people who swear by new technology and some who swear at it.

I am of the belief that simpler is better (KISS). Take our latest generation of cars. Lots of electronics and only the dealerships have the secret sauce to fix them.

What I like about my plane is that I can actually work on it and debug most of the systems. Sure some of the electronics (I have Dynon and Garmin) may have to be returned if not working but the fundamentals that keep the plane flying are extremely simple. So if my Dynon and Garmin stop working in flight, I can keep flying. When on the ground I can debug just about any engine/ignition problem. If there is a problem the ignition parts, they are inexpensive and readily available.

Technology improvements are great but they have to bring greater functionality, reliability or value. If they don?t, I don?t believe they are worth the time or money.

I had a battery contactor/solenoid fail on me last year on an IFR flight. I lost all electrical power. Fortunately I was VMC and dropped into a nearby airport with a mechanic on duty. He cannibalized a contactor out of a 182 and I was on my way. These are mechanical parts, they fail. It seems solid state would be an improvement in safety/reliability. No?
 
Yep - my thought as well. Wiring up this section of the firewall was really pretty quick and easy.

Yeap, it sort of remind me of a friend that spends another extra $1000 on his bicycle that is a few grams lighter. I asked him, isn?t cheaper to lose that extra 18 grams then spend so much money on a set of rims to save a few grams. But then again, some people won't mind spending thousands to save a few and since it is their $$$, more power to them.
 
While this would be out of my price range, there are certainly plenty of people to whom money is really no object (that seems to apply to many RV builders), and will gladly pay to have the latest and greatest. I don't begrudge them that, and in fact I thank them, because the early adopters are what help the new products get developed, and eventually, be priced within reach for all of us. Most likely, when it's time to replace my relays and solenoids, something like this will be a viable and cost effective solution.

Most new technology isn't cost-effective at first. It's the early adopters who help make it so.

Thanks to all the vendors out there willing to take the risks to bring these things to market.

Chris
 
Hey Chad

You have not talked about additional features. Back in the early '70's VW had this magic "diagnostic" plug that could do engine analysis at service intervals. Mostly it was premature and a failure, but it did have a couple of cool features that worked very well.

The first is compression test. When the engine was spun with the starter, it would measure the amp draw accurately enough that it would give a relative compression reading for each cylinder. The second was a battery discharge test. It would apply a small known resistive load and then record voltage drop and give an assessment in % of battery capacity. Both of these (and more) could be easily integrated into the new module. So - what new cool features can this thing do that, beyond just a replacement for the contractors, would add to a pilots confidence in the health of the airplane?
 
That barrel connector will be a lot of fun to wire up...not

Mark, CPC connectors are extremely easy to wire. All you need is the terminal crimping tool which you can find pretty inexpensively on eBay. I'm sure they will be providing a mating harness with wires so you won't even have to crimp the terminals.
 
AECA71C3-DEEF-4280-A73E-70EFE45A425C_zpshnaz53qc.jpg


Can someone please explain why it would be a good idea to hook two alternator B-leads to the same terminal?

Or, did someone just mis-label the mockup?

Paige
 
Can someone please explain why it would be a good idea to hook two alternator B-leads to the same terminal?

Or, did someone just mis-label the mockup?

Paige

It's the way I have my dual alternators hooked up after the ANL limiters. Check out the aeroelectric Z12 diagram for an example.
 
OK, I was thinking of a two battery setup like the Z-14.
Having to add a couple of ANLs would kinda defeat the purpose of an "all in one" box (I thought the box was supposed to provide the protection).

Perhaps there is some logic that only allows one alternator to run at a time, allowing the use of internal overload protection. It wouldn't help you if there was a catastrophic short in either alternator or B-lead though. And, you would be throwing away capacity in a dual battery system.

I guess I'll just have to wait for some documentation.
 
No ANL's will be needed. Logic in the box eliminates the need.

I will post more details and specs as soon as I can...my wife and I are just about to head out on a cruise but I wanted to get pics and some initial info out here before we left.

I will answer all questions, I promise!!
 
I love cool new stuff, but ...

Ok, if this gives me something magic, I might see dropping the significant cash they are talking. I just haven't seen anything $1000 worth of wow (delta between what are talking and the cost of doing it the old way). Seriously, how is this going to make my life all rainbows and unicorns?

Anther issue. The battery connector is on the engine side of the firewall. My battery will be in the back. So I have to go through the firewall with the battery lead anyway. The main bus lug on the back doesn't really save me much by itself. If there was an alternate battery lug on the back, it would at least make that simpler. Or am I just misreading the intentions?

I love that you guys are looking to dragging aviation forward, just help me justify the dramatic difference in cost.

Thanks,

John
 
I am younger then the average home builder and love the technology advancements. I have a microcomputer onboard that converts my Android tablet's bluetooth signals to speak to the VPX. I can turn on any device (or combos) any way that suits me. My next step in my tablet program is to create a check list program like the old vp-200 had by grabbin data from EFIS and turning on vpx devices automatically.

We are building/flying 2015 planes, not the Wright brothers. If you feel more comfortable with switches and relays, then this isn't for you. Myself, am very comfortable with technology and applaud companies coming out with advancements.

My only issue is the battery lugs as well, my battery will sit inside firewall. Plug on back would help.
 
I am younger then the average home builder and love the technology advancements. I have a microcomputer onboard that converts my Android tablet's bluetooth signals to speak to the VPX. I can turn on any device (or combos) any way that suits me. My next step in my tablet program is to create a check list program like the old vp-200 had by grabbin data from EFIS and turning on vpx devices automatically.

Which means you're smart guy, smart enough to wire individual components, and already outside the target market.

Recall that when this product development project was announced (with a request for feedback), a lot of us asked for a good solid state contactor instead...a high-tech replacement for mechanical master and starter contactors. With them a builder could configure wiring and component locations any way desired, as well as replace mechanical contactors in existing aircraft. Now that Ballard owns the product, maybe we'll see that. An STC'd solid state contactor could be a big seller.

Modular component consolidation is a growing trend in the auto industry. It's not driven by consumer advantage, but rather the ability to outsource, ditch employees and overhead, and make a larger chunk of the end product subject to bid competition. Yep, some of it it is more reliable...but when a modular component needs replaced, the consumers scream at the checkbook hit.

Oh, by the way...old does not equal luddite.
 
I am younger then the average home builder and love the technology advancements.
I'm probably not younger than the average builder - certainly not by much. I grew up in the age of rotary phones and breaker points. That said, I've been passionate (as they say) about technology and have been making my living in the electronics and computer field for the past, oh, thirty-five years or so. I'm hardly a Luddite. I did spend two decades primarily repairing and maintaining everything from IBM mainframes down to PCs, so I have developed a pretty good sense of what works and what is going to cause trouble in the long run. As a former network engineer for a company that lived or died on line, I developed a severe allergic reaction to single points of failure.
We are building/flying 2015 planes, not the Wright brothers. If you feel more comfortable with switches and relays, then this isn't for you. Myself, am very comfortable with technology and applaud companies coming out with advancements.
One of the things I have learned over the years is that replacing an electromechanical part with an electronic one may or may not give you more reliable operation. If it's done right, then sure, it works great. Right up util it fails, and it will fail eventually. It's a fact of life; everything dies. It's what happens next that concerns me. While I have a distaste for current-sucking, energy-wasting prehistoric contactors, the fact is that when (not if) it craps out on me, I can find a replacement quickly and easily in most places. I can also, if I get really paranoid, carry a spare for a few bucks extra.

I will be using power MOSFETs in place of relays for several high-current switching tasks. The replacement parts are cheap, small and light -- I can carry a full set of spares that will cost me $10 and about an ounce, and replacing one will take two minutes with a flat blade screwdriver. I feel that's an acceptable level of hassle when (not if) something fails when we're away from home and need to depart on Sunday morning. Having the plane grounded for a few days while I try to get a replacement for a failed "black box" bought from a vendor... I find that to be unacceptable.

You have to assume that everything will eventually fail, and at the worst possible time, and have some way to deal with it. EFIS fails? Well, that sucks! I'll have enough backup instruments to get me home. Alternator fails? No problem, if it's a commonly available alternator. Relays (of any flavor) fail? No problem, they're either common automotive relays or I carry spares.
 
You guys at Vertical Power seem to know what you are doing. Would you consider making a replacement voltage regulator for the Rotax (RV-12)? One that works, lasts, and is heat tolerant?
 
You guys at Vertical Power seem to know what you are doing. Would you consider making a replacement voltage regulator for the Rotax (RV-12)? One that works, lasts, and is heat tolerant?

Talk to the good folks at B and C------I suspect the regulator they have for the SD 8 might be useful for this with minor mods.
 
I really love the VP-X. Cost is in the same ballpark as all the items it replaces, it's probably more reliable and it makes the wiring job much easier.

While very cool, the PPS manages only one of these benefits. So I imagine the market will be considerably smaller than that for the VP-X.
 
You have not talked about additional features. Back in the early '70's VW had this magic "diagnostic" plug that could do engine analysis at service intervals. Mostly it was premature and a failure, but it did have a couple of cool features that worked very well.

The first is compression test. When the engine was spun with the starter, it would measure the amp draw accurately enough that it would give a relative compression reading for each cylinder. The second was a battery discharge test. It would apply a small known resistive load and then record voltage drop and give an assessment in % of battery capacity. Both of these (and more) could be easily integrated into the new module. So - what new cool features can this thing do that, beyond just a replacement for the contractors, would add to a pilots confidence in the health of the airplane?
This would be a very cool feature Bill...one that I will put on the list of "upgrades" we may be able to do with the PPS down the road...first we need to get the unit in to production based on the original design parameters. :cool:
Ok, if this gives me something magic, I might see dropping the significant cash they are talking. I just haven't seen anything $1000 worth of wow (delta between what are talking and the cost of doing it the old way). Seriously, how is this going to make my life all rainbows and unicorns?
I'm not sure how to turn your life in to rainbows and unicorns, but we can make things more reliable than any mechanical device could ever dream of. We aren't focused so much on the cost of what we are replacing. We know we can't touch that price point, but we are focused on is safety, reliability, and ease of installation. The dollars worth of wow are in the eye of the customer who wishes to use solid state products.

Anther issue. The battery connector is on the engine side of the firewall. My battery will be in the back. So I have to go through the firewall with the battery lead anyway. The main bus lug on the back doesn't really save me much by itself. If there was an alternate battery lug on the back, it would at least make that simpler. Or am I just misreading the intentions?
This is being discussed and may be an easy solution...I'll know more about this soon.

You guys at Vertical Power seem to know what you are doing. Would you consider making a replacement voltage regulator for the Rotax (RV-12)? One that works, lasts, and is heat tolerant?
Something to look in to for sure...it's not something that fits the current scope of products from VP, but I do keep a list for potential development projects. Thanks!
 
ALT 1/2 is from Regulator in some cases

Going back to the comments on the Alternator 1 and 2 B leads being connected to the same lug:

In many cases, it is not the alternator that is being connected, it is the Regulator output. How does the PPS handle this scenario (such as with the ULPower 520is)? Should both alternator outputs be connected to this lug? I presume the guidance in the VP-X documentation for the installation of a protective relay for the regulator feed (page 30) does not apply when using the PSS?
 
Incorrect statement

.......Yep!

You have some bad information. The PPS has been under flight testing for several months. The reliability has been excellent with tweaks, adjustments and a few mods taking place. Overall the product has worked as designed.

The selected Beta units will be shipping in the next week. Several will be installed and flown quickly adding more hours to the test program. Ballard is a quality company that will not release the product until ample testing and high reliability is achieved. The Beta testers will use and recommend any changes and mainly put hours not he product.

Hang in there!! This will be a quality product and will be worth the wait!!
 
I kinda wish quotes showed the date of original posting. If you look back you'll see that statement was made in May when they were advertising a 3D printed mockup.

I do see a manual posted with a July date, although it's full of TBD.

http://verticalpower.com/docs/PPS_Manual.pdf

From what I can tell, the unit doesn't have any alternator control logic built in, it doesn't handle split buss systems, and I don't see any details on the overload protection.

Paige
 
Going back to the comments on the Alternator 1 and 2 B leads being connected to the same lug:

In many cases, it is not the alternator that is being connected, it is the Regulator output. How does the PPS handle this scenario (such as with the ULPower 520is)? Should both alternator outputs be connected to this lug? I presume the guidance in the VP-X documentation for the installation of a protective relay for the regulator feed (page 30) does not apply when using the PSS?
Yes, whether B lead or reg output, both would go to the B lead post.

You have some bad information. The PPS has been under flight testing for several months. The reliability has been excellent with tweaks, adjustments and a few mods taking place. Overall the product has worked as designed.

The selected Beta units will be shipping in the next week. Several will be installed and flown quickly adding more hours to the test program. Ballard is a quality company that will not release the product until ample testing and high reliability is achieved. The Beta testers will use and recommend any changes and mainly put hours not he product.

Hang in there!! This will be a quality product and will be worth the wait!!
99% correct...except the PPS has been in ground and lab testing for several months, flight testing begins this month. :cool:

I kinda wish quotes showed the date of original posting. If you look back you'll see that statement was made in May when they were advertising a 3D printed mockup.

I do see a manual posted with a July date, although it's full of TBD.

http://verticalpower.com/docs/PPS_Manual.pdf

From what I can tell, the unit doesn't have any alternator control logic built in, it doesn't handle split buss systems, and I don't see any details on the overload protection.

Paige
Please do not use that manual for anything...the page you pasted is a cached page that has been removed if you refresh your browser on the docs page. That manual is for the original prototype from several years ago. The new manual will be posted once we get through beta testing this fall and winter.
 
Chad - any updates on availability?

Perhaps they realized the business case just wasn't there?

Hi guys,

It's still coming...we have had some challenges with getting it working reliably. This was a much bigger nut to crack that anyone anticipated, but engineering meetings are still occurring on this on a weekly basis. The beta units are still being tested, and beta test 2.0 (not official, that's just my version of it) is going to see the mods integrated.

We are still shooting for the 2nd quarter 2017. I will be at the factory in January and I'll have a much better idea at that point.
 
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