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RV-7 landings

abuura

Well Known Member
I am a mostly nosedragger CFI with 15 landings in my RV-7 and 122 tailwheel landings total. I have only executed 3-point landings in my 180hp, CS RV-7 to date, with generally very good results. The "generally" qualifier does not apply to my last two landings on a 100ft wide, 3702ft long asphalt runway. On the next to last landing I came it at around 70KIAS over the threshold in a light crosswind, and after two bounces during which the plane sidestepped to the left edge of the runway, I went around. The last landing was still a bouncer, but I was able to stay at the center of the runway, so I just held the stick back and let it settle down. After cleaning out my underwear, I realized that this experience has put a dent in my self-confidence, and I am exploring ways to eliminate/reduce the likelihood of a similar event happening again.
I have read most of the postings related to 3-point/wheel/hybrid landings in the RV-7, 8 and other RVs. I want to explore wheel landings because it seems to me a wheel landing is very similar to a normal nosewheel airplane's landing, except that with the former you nudge the stick forward until the tailwheel settles, while in the latter you nudge the stick backward until the nosewheel settles. The springiness of the RV-7's mains should apply to the 7 and 7a equally, so the first part of an RV7a landing should be very similar to what one would expect with 7; actions in the event of a bounce would also seem to be similar for both versions - maintain/return to the original landing attitude, add a little power as necessary. I understand that part two of the landing is very different for these airplanes, but if "wheel landings" are the only option for a 7a pilot, why would it be a less desirable option for a 7 pilot?
One factor I did not see in the discussion about 3-point versus wheel landings, is that in a bounce, even a 6'3" pilot like me who can see the end of the runway over the nose when all three wheels are down loses sight of the runway and with it lateral reference. It's only when the snout comes back down that I discover my new position relative the centerline; in a cross wind that can be disquieting. Conversely, in a wheel or modified wheel landing attitude described by some pilots, the pilot should retain visual reference to the horizon. Isn't that essential in a plane that is prone to bouncing?
I would appreciate comments about my musings from more experienced RV7 pilots or pilots with lots of tailwheel time.
Thanks,
David
RV7, N98DA, flying
 
abuura said:
One factor I did not see in the discussion about 3-point versus wheel landings, is that in a bounce, even a 6'3" pilot like me who can see the end of the runway over the nose when all three wheels are down loses sight of the runway and with it lateral reference. It's only when the snout comes back down that I discover my new position relative the centerline; in a cross wind that can be disquieting. Conversely, in a wheel or modified wheel landing attitude described by some pilots, the pilot should retain visual reference to the horizon. Isn't that essential in a plane that is prone to bouncing?
I would appreciate comments about my musings from more experienced RV7 pilots or pilots with lots of tailwheel time.
Thanks,
David
RV7, N98DA, flying

David,
In my experience teaching landings, nose or tail dragger, looking over the nose can actually be a problem. When I have a student that "can't find the ground," I use a little trick to get them to use their peripheral vision to determine height and sideways movement. The human brain is very good at this, it just takes some training. This is also very helpful for anyone wanting to fly a "classic" tail dragger. There is no forward view from the back seat of a Stearman or Waco once the tail starts down.

Also, you used the term "nudge" regarding the forward stick movment on touchdown in a wheel landing. A matter of degree, but very litttle movement is needed. My technique is to simply fly the approach with a very slight nose down trim. When the mains touch just release the back pressure. Forward movment on the stick is counter intuitive, but it needs to be done to make the airplane stay on the runway. With practice you will find that even with a small bounce, a little forward pressure will cause the airplane to land and stay put.

John Clark ATP CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
wheel landings

One quick note. When wheel landing a tail wheel plane you do not pull the stick back upon the touch down of the mains as that will likely bring the aircraft back into the air at a slow speed and then the next landing might be a full stall :eek:
Best to keep the tail up as long as you can, at least in normal conditions.
 
Wheel landings are fun

Wheel landings are a great way to keep the visibility up and some would say you have more control of the airplane since it is still at flying speed. The biggest thing is making sure you stay on the ground which requires releasing backpressure on the stick just as you touch. Some people say it requires a slight push, but it's just semantics I think. Just decrease AOA enough to keep it on the ground. The biggie here is to not push too much. Also, until you are comfortable with it, watch coming on the brakes too strong while the tail is up.

I fly an 8 so can't talk about the 7. When I flew with Alex D. getting checked out I flew his 6 from the right seat and we did all 3 point landings. The 6 does that really well. The 8 doesn't want to get the tail all the way down so real 3 pointers are not easily accomplished.

As for the visibility over the nose and losing sight of the runway, you have to use your peripheral vision and maintain directional control by watching the sides of the runway. It's something you'll get used to the more tailwheel time you get. In a bunch of conventional gear airplanes it's not an option, it's the only way to see. I've flown biplanes where you have to slip down final to keep the runway in sight and then in the flare straighten the plane out and watch the sides of the runway.
Ask 10 conventional gear pilots which is better and you'll likely get 11 different answers. Lot's of posts about that.

Enjoy your plane and figure out what works bet for each condition.
 
What about stick over into wind (full at some-point)

The only way to land in any cross wind, light or strong is in side slip. You got to think not only elevator but ailerons and rudder. The BIG thing that got my attention was loss of directional or lateral control. The bounce is one thing but bouncing and going off the side of the runway is another.

The following dissertation will be mostly about X-wind landing, but there is some stuff about "the bounce" or my theory, the X-wind and bouncing are interrelated.

The reason you are drifting and skidding down wind and bouncing is the x-wind is getting under the wing and lifting it. With out horizontal component of lift (ie Bank) you'll drift and bounce. You have no horizontal component of lift when you have both mains rolling on the ground. The only way to keep that counter X-Wind component of lift is to roll out in a bank, on one up-wind wheel. This takes aileron and more aileron as you slow down. With both mains on the ground, side load from the X-wind tends to make the mains track down wind. YOU MUST KEEP THE BANK GOING AS LONG AS POSSIBLE, EVEN ON ROLL OUT.

Elevator will not keep you going straight. You must use cross control, aileron into the wind and and opposite rudder to keep from weather vanning into the wind. Bank into the wind and hold that upwind wheel DOWN with aileron and down wind up as long as possible during the roll-out, while using rudder for directional control/yaw. If you bounce and relax the aileron, you'll drift.

The principles are all the same tail dragger or trike. If you are landing on more than one gear than you don't have enough horizontal component of lift to counter the cross wind, this applies even after the first wheel touches down. If you relax the stick level/no bank you have screwed yourself right there, the upwind wing lifts. Don't be afraid to hold stick into the wind and keep it there after landing and putting more in, to the stops, as needed.

If the wind is great and now the down wind wheel is also on the ground (keeping it off as long as possible) than you may need to drag the wind brake. I doubt the wind was that strong. Elevator control is not trivial but its only half of the story.


Here is the FAA put on X-C landings (notice the two views after landing the aileron is still into the wind and the down wind wheel is OFF THE RUNWAY! Also notice in the how not to do it sequence, x-wind can cause the plane to fly again, at least one wing.)



All your reasons for bounce, springiness of mains, how tall you are and sight picture may be small factors. In short ON SPEED (not too fast or too slow) and min sink at touch down is what is need. I am not a big fan of pushing the stick forward, but what you did good by holding the stick back and waiting. STILL DIRECTIONAL CONTROL WAS LOST. I think the x-wind distracted you a little from your flare. It's hard to make a good landing when you are headed towards the weeds.


RV's are easy to land but do need the right power and speed, especially in a cross wind. Bad habits that got you by in a trike, will not work in taildragger, which goes where you point it. The Trike kind of straightens it self out.

In general in X-Wind (tail dragger or trick) you land a little faster and fly or wheel it on. You make wheel landings because you have more control and you want to STICK that (one) up-wind main wheel DOWN on the deck.

For inspirations: This is obviously Bob Hoover and you are not Bob Hoover and neither am I. We may never be as good as him, but, for inspiration, albeit exaggerated for show, this is what a GOOD cross wind landing should look like (notice the dust blowing down wind - hint, hint):

bobhoverxwindlandingqm2.jpg


Bottom line is you are not using all the controls to counter the cross wind, rudder and aileron. Pilots (people in general) are just not comfortable landing and rolling out while "leaning over". You are leaning over in a slip, so its a little uncomfortable if your mind always wants to see that flat/level "sight picture" on all landings.

PRACTICE: I had my students fly over the runway (with a strong cross wind) low, but not land, just a level low pass, in a full side slip. I would have them play with the aileron and rudder so they tracked the runway and kept the longitudinal axis of the plane aligned in direction of flight (side slip). They got use to that leaning over attitude. If possible I would have them fly down the runway in the opposite direction to exercise both left and right cross wind control. We would do this over and over until they got it right but with out landing.

The next step was a landing or touch and go, but maintaining the slip the whole time. I'd set-up them up making a low pass or approach again, but I'd slowly pull the throttle back on them and tell them to hold it off. I might even help a little with elevator to flare and have them land. They are concentrating so much on aileron and rudder they can't always handle the elevator and flair at the same time, at first. (This is the problem with many pilots, this coordinate cross-control + flare that uses all three control axis at the same time.) You work so much (mentally) on elevator input with a wheel landing your brain may forget about aileron and rudder or vise verse (aka BOUNCE).

ROLL OUT: Once we touched down I would instruct them to hold the rudder and aileron position. I tell them to keep a little power in or I'd set it. This gave us a long roll out and speed to keep the down wind wing up as we rolled down the runway. This one wheel roll out would either result in a landing as I pulled the power back for them or a go around as I added power. If I pulled the power back, the down wind wheel was held up, until full aileron was reached and it touched down as we slowed. (Mistake many pilots make is they don't use full control deflection when needed.) Once the second main touched down, at this point you're going 20-30 mph ground speed max. The plane is controllable with rudder or if needed a little diff brake at that slow speed.

GO AROUND: After touch down and roll out on one wheel per above, I might just add power and take off doing a touch and go, while maintaining the SLIP the whole time. This is how you take off as well as land, a FWD SLIP. PRACTICE YOUR SLIPS

(Note: review slipping. SIDE SLIP, is where you are banked but longitudinal axis is aligned in direction of flight (aka, the side stays to the side). FORWARD SLIP: Forward slip, is where the side of the plane is forward or pointed in direction of flight, aka flying sideways and why its called a forward slip. Slips require CROSS CONTROL so many pilots are just out of practice or never learned them properly in the first place.)

All X-wind technique applies to trikes as well, but they are more forgiving due to less tendency of "weather vanning". You have more fuselage behind the mains with a tail dragger and so it wants to turn you into the wind more.

Give me your log book and I'll give you 0.20 hours of ground. :D
 
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I understand exactly how you feel. What helped me is practicing in the early evenings when temps and winds are low. I like to stay in the pattern and do 5 or 6 touch and goes at least once a week. For me, it was all about getting to know the plane and "bonding" with it. After almost 100hrs I feel like much more of a pilot than a passenger now.
The landing portion of flying my -9 was/is the most difficult but satisfying part to learn.
Here's what works for me:
I like to be at 75-80 mph on short final and avoid flaring until I am no more than a couple feet above the runway. The extra speed gives me time to ease down closer as speed bleeds off. Nose down pitch trim also helps to give a feel of resistance through the stick as you give back pressure.
I do not look to the end of the runway. My sight is to the left of the cowl and down.
When I am as low as I want to be, I start easing the tail down with more back pressure so as to land in a tail low wheel landing attitude. I always wheel land my -9 the only variable is how low I want the tail to be. If it is a short grass strip I will almost be in a three point attitude when I land.
My goal is to kiss the runway then add in a little forward pressure to keep it down. If you drop in too hard then you are going back up. In that case, a little throttle helps me settle back down, or, I go around again. You cannot hesitate or be indecisive in this situation.
Lots of practice worked for me....and patience. The -9 wing keeps flying and won't stop until it is good and ready.
 
"Many times cross controlled, in a coordinated way"

George,
Great graphic!

John Clark ATP CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Too Slow!

David,

George's graphic says it all - particularly about x-wind. Don't worry you will get there. Tailwheels aren't easy and take some practice. Most folks pick up very bad habits with nosewheel aircraft and have to unlearn all that with a TW. Particularly side loading. The nosewheel will straighten out that, even though it is bad for the gear, but the TW aircraft will want to come around.

But the one item that I didn't see mentioned or maybe missed was about your speed. You mentioned:

"On the next to last landing I came it at around 70KIAS over the threshold in a light crosswind"


IMHO, I think you are too slow and that increases your sink rate and makes it harder to land. 70KIAS is OK at 6" and in the flare, but not over the fence. You are flying a hotter wing than you might be used to with C-172's etc. I would recommend 80 knots on final all the way down to the numbers and you can bleed it off from there.

Keep it up, you'll do fine. Just takes time and practice.

Cheers,

Rob
 
Thanks all for the inputs. With my previous Archer III, I learned to gradually turn the control wheel completely upwind as the plane slowed down in order to keep it on the ground, so I am in that mode. But, George is right, when you are learning (and in the middle of a bounce) it's hard to put together all the things you need to do -- and maintain a sideslip while the stick is jammed into your crotch. I'll take to heart keeping an eye down and to the side rather than craning my neck to see over the snout, setting a slight down trim, and wheel landing at a slightly higher speed. By the way, I said "around 70KIAS" advisedly, a confession to the (unacceptable) fact that I am not sure exactly how fast I was going at the time.
David
 
abuura...By the way said:
David, like other things RV there are many different feelings about approach speed as indeed there are different pitot static systems. I certainly would not consider 70 KIAS too slow during any aspect of the approach for any RV I have flown. I fly my fixed pitch RV-6 at 65 knots approach speed normally and around 60 for short field. One friend's constant speed RV-6 likes it at 70 knots and another likes it at 65 knots with slower on short final. I doubt if speed is the problem.
 
N908RV said:
"On the next to last landing I came it at around 70KIAS over the threshold in a light crosswind"


IMHO, I think you are too slow and that increases your sink rate and makes it harder to land. 70KIAS is OK at 6" and in the flare, but not over the fence. You are flying a hotter wing than you might be used to with C-172's etc. I would recommend 80 knots on final all the way down to the numbers and you can bleed it off from there.

I agree with Rob,

With only 15 landings under your belt , I also would suggest a faster approach speed until you have gotten some more time in the airplane.
Rob's recommendation of 80 knots is pretty good.

One thing you will eventually learn about the low aspect ration wing on RV's is that it is pretty good for low drag at high speed / low angle of attack...
But when the angle of attack starts to increase, the drag starts to raise dramatically and the speed decays quickly. This has bitten quite a few new RV piots over the years (tail dragger and trigear).

P.S. There is a wide range of indicated speeds on RV's at stall because of all the different pitot/static installations that people use. The recomendation of 80 kts is base on an accurate speed indicatin at stall. I have a friend who was having a very difficult time landing his RV-6 many years ago (before we knew about the amount of error possible with modified pitot / static systems).
It took awhile for him to realize that the fact that his airplane stalled with an IAS of 45 MPH may have been effecting his landing success.
So don't use any recommended speed unless you know for sure that it is compatable with your airplane and its systems.

A minimum of 1.5 X the flaps up indicated stall speed seems to be a good starting point for most new RV pilots.
 
80 KTS or 80 MPH? The RV-4 will float quite a bit at 80 KTS. Just about right at 80 MPH. Is the RV-7 approach speed that much different? I'd like to know what to expect when I fly my RV-7... some day.
 
svanarts said:
80 KTS or 80 MPH? The RV-4 will float quite a bit at 80 KTS. Just about right at 80 MPH. Is the RV-7 approach speed that much different? I'd like to know what to expect when I fly my RV-7... some day.

A lot more has to be considered than just whether it is an RV-4 or an RV-7, but yes you will probably want to use a higher approach speed with your -7.
It has been quite common for finished weights of RV-7(A)'s to be 1125 lbs or more (some, much more). This is 150 - 200 lbs (or more) higher empty weight than what is probably average for an RV-4. This alone will make quite a difference.
Any model with a constant speed prop versus a fixed pitch (metal or wood) will be quite different. A fixed pitch prop with the amount of pitch that we use on RV's, produces quite a bit of residual thrust even at idle. A constant speed prop. is just the opposite, produces quite a bit of drag in flat pitch at idle.
Any RV with a constant speed prop will probably benefit from a slightly higher approach speed.
 
A note on wheel landings. Wheel landings are fun and there is nothing like greasing one on without so much as a chirp from the tires. The biggest thing to remember though is if you bounce a wheel landing do not chase it but go around or turn it into a three point. Also even though you are a CFI find someone that is a really high time compatent tailwheel pilot to teach you correctly. You know as an instructor that it is easier to teach good technique that to try and break bad habits. Don
 
Speed RV4 vs. RV-7

svanarts said:
80 KTS or 80 MPH? The RV-4 will float quite a bit at 80 KTS. Just about right at 80 MPH. Is the RV-7 approach speed that much different? I'd like to know what to expect when I fly my RV-7... some day.


Scott,

I agree with Scott (RVbuilder2002) on this - lots to consider. Also, Larry had a good point which I didn't consider (FP vs. CS - this changes things too.) With my big Hartzell CS BA prop it is like throwing out the anchor when I pull back the power so you gotta keep your speed up. In my buddies RV-6 (190 hp with the older Hartzell CS) he uses 80 knots (about 1.5 Vs for him). My ASI is in mph, I stall dirty at 64mph IAS in my RV-8, and I use 1.4 Vs which is 90 mph. If I had a FP, I would probably come in a little slower at 85mph.

That said - back to your RV-4 note... My friend who has a FP RV-4 uses 80mph on final, and I have another friend with a FP RV-4 who has been known to fly (solo) on final as slow as 65mph.

The RV-7 is a much heavier beast with higher wing loading and if you have a CS prop that changes things significantly as well.

With a CS prop and some slipping skills you can lose all the altitude and speed you want on short final and I'd rather come in with money in the bank and lose it on short final. I am guilty of too many years of flying biplanes with the glide ratio of a brick, so those old saftey habits die hard.
 
too fast?

abuura said:
I am a mostly nosedragger CFI with 15 landings in my RV-7 and 122 tailwheel landings total. I have only executed 3-point landings in my 180hp, CS RV-7 to date, with generally very good results. The "generally" qualifier does not apply to my last two landings on a 100ft wide, 3702ft long asphalt runway. On the next to last landing I came it at around 70KIAS over the threshold in a light crosswind, and after two bounces during which the plane sidestepped to the left edge of the runway, I went around. The last landing was still a bouncer, but I was able to stay at the center of the runway, so I just held the stick back and let it settle down. After cleaning out my underwear, I realized that this experience has put a dent in my self-confidence, and I am exploring ways to eliminate/reduce the likelihood of a similar event happening again.

David,

I'm a low time (100 hour) pilot with only a few hours TW time with an instructor in a Citabria, so keep this in mind while considering my input... I've never flown in a -7 but have landed my buddy's -6 twice from the right seat with him nervously following my every move... no doubt wondering the whole time why the heck he asked me if I wanted to try landing it.

I just wanted to share something my CFI told me about 3 pointing the Citabria. Basically he said that my botched 3 pointers where not bounces, rather I was touching down too fast and the airplane was starting to fly again. In a TW, with the CG aft of the mains, touching down above stall speed with any decent rate at all tends to push the tail down which increases the angle of attack and provides lift. Suddenly, you are back in the air. It seems like you bounced but you are not really bouncing, you are flying.

It is the opposite in a tri-gear, touching down with downward momentum pushes the nose down and tends to reduce AOA and keep you on the runway.

My guess is that you are too focused on hitting a particular touchdown point and instead you should try to get the touchdown speed right. Hold it just barely off of the runway until it actually stalls. At 3702ft, you have plenty of runway. As you slow down, and control surface effectiveness lessens, increase your control inputs to stay centered and just above the runway - eventually the airplane will stop flying and you'll land in a 3 point attitude.

My other suggestion would be to find a CFI that you trust with lots of TW instruction time and pay him/her to sit next to you for a few hours.

-Mark (I need to update my sig. Tail is done, SB wings arrive 1st week of July.)
 
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. The secret to a good wheel landing: zero descent rate at touchdown. Fly it on. And yes, this requires higher airspeed than you're used to -- until you get good enough to do it slower & eventually power off.

I say this from a perspective of having made 1633 landings in RVs (1632 of which were in taildragger RVs).

Again, PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. And if that doesn't work, get a CFI to fly along with you. The fresh perspective might help you spot your bad habits.
 
I agree - getting into and keeping the slip is critical.

One silly question - do you have a good reference of where "straight ahead" is on your -7? If you don't, the airplane will be cocked one way or the other and will tend to drift once meeting the pavement. It took me a while to get used to the odd curve of the CT's nose to get used to where "straight ahead" is. I sometimes cheat and use the right side of the large slip / ball that is mounted front and center on our panel (pretty high-tech, eh?).

Doug
 
N908RV said:
Scott,

I agree with Scott (RVbuilder2002) on this - lots to consider. I am guilty of too many years of flying biplanes with the glide ratio of a brick, so those old saftey habits die hard.

Good info Scott and Rob. Gave me some good stuff to think about. May not hurt to go get some transition training again just before the first RV-7 flight.
 
High aproach speeds?

I'm really amazed, that so many of you suggest high aproach speeds.

I believe, it is a good idea to land an aircraft with as little energy left as possible, and that is a full stall landing. With any excess energy the aircraft is either bumping back into the air or floating down the runway. A wheel landing is nothing but floating down the runway with turning wheels. If you pull the stick you are back in the air. The only reason to use an aproach speed much higher (>1.2) than stall speed are gusty winds, where you need a safty margin to avoid stalling on final. If your are fast, you just extend your final down the runway.
One reason people like wheel landings is, that they have more rudder authority to correct their direction, when they are not perfectly aligned with the runway. But they are still flying until the wings are fully stalled. Try to make full stall landings aligned with the runway and everything is fine, no matter wether it is a tail wheel or trike.
Here in germany there are many airports with runways less than 2500 ft, and some really nice islands in the north (e.g. Helgoland, Borkum) have runways with just 1300 ft. So we just learn using the complete available length. Maybe you are amazed to hear, that we don't have things like tailwheel endorsements and high performance or complex ratings. If we have a PPL, we are allowed to fly any single engine piston aircraft up to a weight of 2 tons. It is still a good idea and common practice, to ask an FI to help you with a new type of aircraft, but it is not legally required, and of course you will never find anyone to rent you an aircraft, that you have never flown before.
Most important thing is: Know your personal limits, and if you don't feel safe, ask an instructor to help you.
 
Speed

Ingo,

"Moin Moin" - Freut mich, dass es deutsch-gespraechige auf dieser Seite gibt. Im 1990 studierte ich (als Austauschstudent) an der Uni Oldenburg, deswegen kenne ich die norddeutsche Inseln....

With my RV-8 I use a 90 mph (not knots - rather mph) approach speed for wheel landings. That's about 81 knots give or take. That is 1.4x my dirty stall speed. For three pointers, I use 85 mph. I see you are building an RV-8 and you will probably be disappointed in its ability or rather inability to 3 point very well. Yes, you can do it and it is not a problem per se, but you will not get it to settle nicely. In the angle of attack that a 3 point gives you it will not fully stall. Because of that it will dance. I know this is an RV-7 post and that is not an issue with the 7, but just wanted to mention that since you probably intend to fly your 8 into short strips. Be prepared to have your mains a bit high to get it stalled and drop it on. Probably not a bad technique for such short strips anyway.

Here in the US, most, but not all strips are generally larger than 1500'. In fact most strips are 2200' or larger. A good many are even longer than 3000'.

With my RV-8 and the CS prop, using 90mph on final and wheel landing and not even trying to use every available inch of the threshhold of my 5000' runway, I can wheel land, tail down and stop in 1100'. That's without any effort at all. 3 pointing it, I can usually do it in about 800', but there is little point to doing that and it is hard on the RV-8. And yes, I am a strict 3 pointer type - I really am not a fan of wheel landings, but you will find your 8 prefers them and does them effortlessly. Particularly so if you are in a more foreward CG condition. Also with the CS prop, there is very little float. My friend's RV-4 with FP floats forever.

Also, not sure about the 7, but you can't trim my RV-8 out for less than 90 mph/80 knots. Any slower and you will be holding significant stick pressure all the way down.

Again, FP RV-4's with lighter wing loading - completely different approaches are required and I would fly them at 80mph if it were me and work on getting them down to about 70mph. But RV-7 or RV-8's are bigger, heavier machines and many have CS props acting like speed brakes and that changes your approach profile and speeds required.
 
Ingo Weise said:
I'm really amazed, that so many of you suggest high aproach speeds.

I believe, it is a good idea to land an aircraft with as little energy left as possible, and that is a full stall landing.

I agree with you Ingo, but we are talking about a brand new RV pilot learning to fly the airplane. A little higher approach speed gives you more time in the flair. Once experienced is gained the approach speed can be adjusted.

Also flying a faster approach does not automatically mean that you have to touch down faster, and I wasn't advocating that.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
I agree with you Ingo, but we are talking about a brand new RV pilot learning to fly the airplane. A little higher approach speed gives you more time in the flair. Once experienced is gained the approach speed can be adjusted.

Also flying a faster approach does not automatically mean that you have to touch down faster, and I wasn't advocating that.

Scott, you are right, that a higher approach speed doesn't mean faster touchdown, but than you are floating forever two or three feet above the runway to dissipate the excess energy without gaining any advantage. In our M20J I turn to final at 70 kts (1.2x stall speed), adding half gust factor when it is bumpy. That would be plenty of speed for an RV with its lower stall speed. We are talking about someone who is transitioning to an RV and not someone who is learning to fly. The approach speed is not a factor of weight.
I can allways add throttle when I'm to slow or low, but I can't add runway when I'm to fast. I'm based at an airport with a 2600 ft grass runway, but sometimes I fly to airports with just 1300 ft.
 
Ingo Weise said:
Scott, you are right, that a higher approach speed doesn't mean faster touchdown, but than you are floating forever two or three feet above the runway to dissipate the excess energy without gaining any advantage. In our M20J I turn to final at 70 kts (1.2x stall speed), adding half gust factor when it is bumpy. That would be plenty of speed for an RV with its lower stall speed. We are talking about someone who is transitioning to an RV and not someone who is learning to fly. The approach speed is not a factor of weight.
I can allways add throttle when I'm to slow or low, but I can't add runway when I'm to fast. I'm based at an airport with a 2600 ft grass runway, but sometimes I fly to airports with just 1300 ft.


How much RV flight time do you have? These airplanes are not difficult to fly, but they are quite different from what most people have flown.

As I mentioned in a previous post...on an RV the drag goes up (and speed bleeds off) much quicker as the angle of attack increases. compared to most airplanes people have experience in. Mike Seager who does RV transition training (a couple thousand + hours now) for Van's teaches everyone to initially use a higher approach speed than they need to until becoming more familiar with the airplane.
 
Dotti

rvbuilder2002 said:
Mike Seager who does RV transition training (a couple thousand + hours now) for Van's teaches everyone to initially use a higher approach speed than they need to until becoming more familiar with the airplane.

I second the higher speed for beginner RV'ers and teach basically the same approach. I've seen how fast the drag goes up and the lift down near stall speeds and for this reason I also advise a little extra speed on final, around 80 MPH. After 20 or 30 landings, the speeds can be lowered by 5 MPH increments as you learn the sink rates and differing characteristics of the airplane. I also caution newbies to use longer runways and not start flying into 2000' or less for quite a while.

Fly safe,
Pierre
 
Approach speeds

""If his ship has rather short wings, it will be inefficient in slow flight and the best speeds move to the fast side. It will pay to fly it a little faster than a little slower."

Wolfgang Langewiesche, "Stick and Rudder" 1944


John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
...on an RV the drag goes up (and speed bleeds off) much quicker as the angle of attack increases. compared to most airplanes people have experience in. Mike Seager who does RV transition training (a couple thousand + hours now) for Van's teaches everyone to initially use a higher approach speed than they need to until becoming more familiar with the airplane.

Does this apply to the -9 with the longer, thinner wing? Maybe to a lesser degree? I havn't yet got to fly one, so any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks!
 
IowaRV9Dreamer said:
Does this apply to the -9 with the longer, thinner wing? Maybe to a lesser degree? I havn't yet got to fly one, so any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks!
I'd be interested in knowing this too. Given that the -9 has about half the power-off sink rate as the short-wing RV's, I would guess that carrying extra speed would be much less important.
 
Here is some insight from a 100hr -9 driver...me.
I have noticed that 75-80 mph, idle power, gives me a very nice short final approach.
Sink rate increases very noticeably below 75. Keep in mind that is at idle. I typically fly close patterns and pull to idle power abeam touchdown point maintain 85 on base and 80 on final, then closer to 75 over the numbers. If there is any appreciable wind then I will leave some power in.
Any faster than 80 mph on final will have me floating into the next county!
Hope this helps
 
landing a RV7

Hi, Iam am new here. I have been flying a RV6a until just recently buying a RV8.
This thread has been very beneficial. The 8 definately likes to wheel land and after 20 or so landings I am becoming more comfortable with the technique. What seems to work for me, trimming for 90mph and holding it off against the pressure in the flair then when wheels touch down simply let off the pressure and the airplane sticks automatically.

I also wanted my mommy while taking off in the 8 because it seemed I was fishtailing down the runway on launch. Finally learned to use my right foot for P factor with the 200 horse constant speed and mom's not on my mind nearly so much.

I also own a Supercub and initially tried landing it as per the Cub, very different birds.
Thanks for the handling advice, Iam really loving the RV8!!

Steve
Ks.
 
RV's and 1.? of Vs

Ingo Weise said:
Scott, you are right, that a higher approach speed doesn't mean faster touchdown, but than you are floating forever two or three feet above the runway to dissipate the excess energy without gaining any advantage. In our M20J I turn to final at 70 kts (1.2x stall speed), adding half gust factor when it is bumpy. That would be plenty of speed for an RV with its lower stall speed. We are talking about someone who is transitioning to an RV and not someone who is learning to fly. The approach speed is not a factor of weight.
I can allways add throttle when I'm to slow or low, but I can't add runway when I'm to fast. I'm based at an airport with a 2600 ft grass runway, but sometimes I fly to airports with just 1300 ft.

Ingo, we all have to be careful making generalizations about "RV"s. they are all different. You'd be hard pressed to compare my CS RV-8 that stalls at 64mph dirty and 72mph with my friends who have lighter FP RV-4's and stall in the 50's. I know they say the RV-8's stall in the low 50 mph range, but that has not been my experience and I doubt it is very different with the RV-7.

Our approach profiles are completely different and they have to be because our aircraft perform so very different. Your suggested 1.2 Vs approach speed of 70 knots would be plenty in an RV-4, but is on the low side for an RV-7 or -8. with a CS prop. Maybe not so bad with a FP RV-7 or -8.

At your suggested 1.2 Vs in my RV-8 that would be 77 mph, which is about the point that I start getting the pre-stall tail buffet and the sink rate rises dramatically. A couple of mph lower - by 75 mph you are in full buffet and while it is a nice stall warning it isn't particularly pleasant to fly that way.

As for float? With the CS prop there is hardly any float at all - even maintaining 90mph on final. You only get about 2 seconds with the power at idle in the flare. I touch down at about 70 mph. And yes, re: a Mooney, sure it floats if you are hot on speed - huge wing. Wouldn't even bother comparing it to an RV, they have nothing in common.

But you are right about short runways, you can always add power and smack the nose down for speed. But, you don't want to stall/spin on final because you came up short on speed and didn't react fast enough either.

Ingo, you and I may have a lot of experience in hotter things, but many of the folks reading this post, particularly the guy trying to learn his RV-7 are trying to get comfortable with their new machine and are not ready to perfect landing an RV-7 on a 1300' strip. These are different goals. From my perspective the RV is incredibly easy to land. Most of my time (800 hours) is in high performance biplanes like Skybolts and Acrosports so the RV as a taildragger is sort of a cake-walk to me. I like that I don't have to sweat 20+ knot crosswinds or short strips as much anymore. And I can even see most of what's in front of me - an amazing new concept to me. ;) But to new tailwheel guys it is a whole new dimension that they have to get used to. A little extra time in the flare will give them a chance to sort it all out.

What you are looking for on your 1300' island strip is a maximum performance STOL landing at a near critical AOA - and that is a very different animal than our experienced nosewheel CFI, but newbie RV-7 guy wants to tackle at the moment.
 
Where were ya .......

[

All X-wind technique applies to trikes as well, but they are more forgiving due to less tendency of "weather vanning". You have more fuselage behind the mains with a tail dragger and so it wants to turn you into the wind more.

Give me your log book and I'll give you 0.20 hours of ground. :D[/QUOTE]

OK Geroge, where were ya when I needed ya......Every time I fly with a CFI I always tell them that my x-wind training was to say the least was lacking both in content/practice/evaluation. They then give me the old slip to landing short course and say well there you go that is all there is to it. I have concluded that even some (or maybe many CFI's are not comfortable with this aspect of flight...and thus gloss over what I believe to be a very important skill to master.

Your disscussion of this was great.....now I just need to finish my 7A... and find George to hone my x-wind landing skills. :)

Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY" Panel/Electrical ...
 
Tailwheel - Wheel Landings

Solo in an RV, wheel landings are much easier.

Also, when new at tailwheel landings, during wheel landing - don't use the brakes until the tailwheel is down.

I saw a plane get completely totaled on its first flight due to over use of brakes on the wheel landing. It was very sad, but he was ok.

Get used to the plane. Just takes time.
 
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