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ADS-B Out

Ex Bonanza Bucko

Well Known Member
We have ADS-B in and out in current Skyview systems. So what is the reason everyone is complaining about the $5-6K ADS-B will cost when the mandate happens in 2020? Ours costs $995.

I assume that has something to do with FAA certification which our current systems don't have. ??

EBB
 
Yes, it has to use a certified GPS for the location source, which we don't have.
Alex
 
You didn't get the Mode S transponder from Dynon for that, the 'IN' is $995 and the Mode S 'OUT' is $2200.

And you still don't have a certified GPS position source which is over 2K.
 
So the problem is "certification." Wow, one would think that rational people would therefore attempt to change (attack?) the certification problem/cost instead of the cost of the gizmo.

EBB:)
 
There are many ADS-B IN systems selling for less than $1000. These systems are only receiving ADS-B information (thus the ADS-B IN moniker). They are not broadcasting OUT from the aircraft.
  • Skyview?? has ADS-B with WAAS GPS sending an OUT signal?
  • You have registered it with your N number with the FAA?
Not sure what you are referring to when you mention you have a Skyview ADS-B IN/OUT system for $995. Given today's market, how is it possible to have all the necessary components to make the ADS-B system "legal" for the 2020 ADS-B OUT mandate at that price. I would love to hear more details about the specifications of your current system.
  • What type of certified WAAS GPS are you using to feed the system?
  • What Altimeter is being used and how is it connected to the ADS-B unit for this OUT capable unit?
 
I have the Freeflight system which is TSO'd with it's own internal GPS. It cost $3400 from Sarasota Avionics, and I installed it (see the thread I posted). I said that to avoid a s$&:storm for my next comment:

If your current uncertified ADS-B out looks like the certified one on the system FAA has created a regulation enforceable only when they pick through crash sites and find the avionics.
 
Here's more info on the SkyGuard:

UNIT COST:
$975 plus shipping for the ADS-B OUT transmitter kit.
http://adsb.skyguardtwx.com/uat-transmitter/

ZERO INSTALL COST:
Zero install cost as it is a portable unit. The only constraint is if the 12V accessory plug had enough amps. If the SkyGuard were hardwired they recommend either a 3A slow-blow fuse or a 5A quick-blow fuse.

Here's the SkyView setup guide:

http://adsb.skyguardtwx.com/wp-cont...ardTWX-UAT_Transmitter-Setup-Instructions.pdf

REQUIRED EQUIPMENT:
Either: iPhone / iPad / Andrioid / iFly to setup

ADS-B IN:
You can use whatever ADS-B or TIS receiver you want.
In my case I'm using the Stratus II for ADS-B in / TIS in to ForeFlight
and my Garmin GTX 330 / Garmin 696 for TIS in on the panel.
The Garmin equipment is already installed in my plane.
The Stratus II is $899 from Sporty's

Note: TIS-A is different from ADS-B. A ground station trigger from ADS-B OUT will not provide TIS traffic. You still need an ADS-B in device and display.

OTHER SkyGuard Options:
SkyGuard also makes two additional transceiver models if you want to use their system for ADS-B both IN and OUT. Cost is $1475 or $1875 with AHRS

It's not 2020 compatible. Supposedly they are working on an installed 2020 compliance option… bolt it down, external antenna, etc.

I wouldn't buy it for the FAA for 2020. It is better for immediate needs without spending $4,000k +. If they get 2020 compliance it would be bonus points. We'll be seeing lots of ADS-B options come to market before 2020.

The only thing that is not quite seamless in SkyGuard is that the squawk code is set by an iPad or iFly app. By default it stays on 1200. So for just flying around VFR so plug it in and forget about it. Otherwise use an iPhone or other device to change the squawk code as appropriate.

So to squawk a discreet code, say for entering SFRA, both the standard Mode-C transponder and the SkyGuard ADS-B transmitter would have to be set to that code.

Not a big deal really... a separate iPhone could set the ADS-B squawk code.

Here's more info on the FAA's position on ADS-B, and non-TSO required SIL/SDA out code settings:

http://www.brightcopy.net/allen/avne/51-6/index.php#/64
 
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I too am waiting for an "affordable" ADS-B solution.

I currently have a SkyView coupled to a Dynon transponder.

The only thing missing to make it compliant is a certified GPS source. I am keeping my fingers crossed that Dynon comes up with something in the next few years.

When this reg was first proposed, it said we would need a GPS source. Later on, the reg was changed to require a "certified" GPS source.

Where was AOPA and the EAA when this was proposed and enacted? Aren't we paying them to protect our interests? Boy, did they ever drop the ball on this one!
 
I have the Freeflight system which is TSO'd with it's own internal GPS. It cost $3400 from Sarasota Avionics, and I installed it (see the thread I posted). I said that to avoid a s$&:storm for my next comment:

If your current uncertified ADS-B out looks like the certified one on the system FAA has created a regulation enforceable only when they pick through crash sites and find the avionics.

The uncertified units, which the FAA is allowing until 2020, are supposed to have an indicator in the data stream that they are not certified. Now, if it is possible to somehow alter that data stream, then you are correct.
 
I too am waiting for an "affordable" ADS-B solution.

I currently have a SkyView coupled to a Dynon transponder.

The only thing missing to make it compliant is a certified GPS source. I am keeping my fingers crossed that Dynon comes up with something in the next few years.

When this reg was first proposed, it said we would need a GPS source. Later on, the reg was changed to require a "certified" GPS source.

Where was AOPA and the EAA when this was proposed and enacted? Aren't we paying them to protect our interests? Boy, did they ever drop the ball on this one!

It's the not really so new FAA way of doing things. They want paperwork for everything. If they could they'd go back in time and demand part 91 operators use only TSO'd nav, ADF's, intercoms. Pity the normally certified guys. Most FISDOs have pretty much eliminated field approvals. To install a NOT required ADSB-in box for them means getting a STC approval. More paper, more cost. It's gotten completely out of hand as the guys writing the TSOs try to cover every one in a billion chance of a problem, without regard to cost.
 
There is NO requirement in the ADS-B regs that your GPS be certified. Technically, ADS-B doesn't even require a GPS. It requires a "position sensor" that has certain accuracy and reliability metrics.

For GPS, what is required is that it meet a performance standard. It has to deal with specific errors in the GPS data and constellations, and it has to demonstrate a design method that means undetected errors are extremely rare. Even WAAS isn't technically required, it's just the cheapest way to get to the required performance.

This means no consumer grade, off the shelf GPS that I know of today meets these requirements since they don't care about the error caused by some theoretical edge case of weird GPS failures. But ADS-B does. So now you have to do a ground up GPS design so you can prove the design is solid and deals with the errors.

The volume in experimental and LSA means that amortizing this across maybe 10,000 aircraft is hard to justify.

In the end, if you have a GPS that you can demonstrate meets the requirements, you can slap it in an EAB or LSA and go legally fly in rule airspace after 2020 without ever contacting the FAA, getting paperwork, or getting certification. But they can come and ask you how you know it compiles, and if you don't have a solid data pack, they're going to bring the hammer down.

Technically, the above is true for GPS in IFR and transponders too. As long as they meet the performance requirements of the TSO, they are legal, but no company has found it economically viable to meet those requirements and then decided not to do the last 10% of work to file the paperwork to get an actual TSO.
 
Here's more info on the FAA's position on Portable ADS-B, note that portable out units are allowed for experimentals and LSA with the proper SIL/SDA out code settings:

http://www.brightcopy.net/allen/avne/51-6/index.php#/64

designrs, that document you lined to says "Portable ADS-B out systems, also known as "suitcase" units, should not be operated (transmitting) aboard any aircraft." Where do you get the idea they are OK in an experimental/LSA?
 
I suppose there is a legal definition of "certified" somewhere. But my definition is "someone knowledgeable has promised that this equipment meets performance specifications found in 91.227, or in TSO 166, etc." By that common sense definition the position source, gps or other, is 'certified'.
As has been discussed before, you are correct, in theory the owner could make this promise or certification. But in practice no owner is in a position to do so, due to the enormous complexity of the specifications.
 
It does make a difference though. Many times people think the paperwork required to "certify" something is where the cost comes in. Technically this isn't really true- the cost comes in when you are required to meet a whole host of performance requirements that may or may not really be relevant in the market you are selling to, weather or not you have to submit this to the FAA.

If you want to get the FAA to lower the cost of ADS-B, it's not that you need them to start allowing non-certified devices, because they already do. It's that you need to convince them that a GA airplane doesn't need as accurate or reliable position sources as currently required. This is a tough one with them as they eventually want to use the ADS-B out signal as the method to separate two airplanes from one another, so some position errors can theoretically lead to mid-air collisions.
 
Agreed.
The real risk-analysis question the FAA seems unwilling to ask is, "What's better - degraded position data, or none at all?" because lots of operators who don't venture near class A, B, or C, and stay below 10,000' are simply going to not opt in.
Or is "required everywhere" coming soon?
 
I was not aware the non-TSO units are required to identify themselves in the data stream. Dynon support, can you comment on that and How it is implemented?

Thanks,

Rich
 
Again, TSO or non-TSO is not important ADS-B doesn't care. What it cares about is the performance of the position sensor (GPS in almost all cases)

ADS-B OUT requirements are in FAR 91.277. The sub-section that defines what you must have to fly in rule airspace (Class B, C and above 10,000 feet) after 2020 is:

(1) For aircraft broadcasting ADS-B Out as required under Sec. 91.225 (a) and (b)--

(i) The aircraft's NACP must be less than 0.05 nautical miles;

(ii) The aircraft's NACV must be less than 10 meters per second;

(iii) The aircraft's NIC must be less than 0.2 nautical miles;

(iv) The aircraft's SDA must be 2; and

(v) The aircraft's SIL must be 3.

The important ones for devices that have not been proven are SDA and SIL.

Per AC 20-165:

b. System Safety Assessment. The ADS-B System Design Assurance (SDA) parameter
indicates the probability of an ADS-B system malfunction causing false or misleading position
information or position quality metrics to be transmitted. SDA may be preset at installation for
systems that do not utilize multiple position sources with different design assurance levels,
otherwise the system must be capable of adjusting the SDA broadcast parameter to match the
position source being employed at the time of transmission.

(3) Source Integrity Level (SIL). SIL is typically a static (unchanging) value and may be
set at the time of installation if a single type of position source is integrated with the ADS-B system.
SIL is based solely on the position source’s probability of exceeding the reported integrity value and
should be set based on design data from the position source equipment manufacturer. Installations
which derive SIL from GNSS position sources compliant with any revision of TSO-C129,
TSO-C145, TSO-C146, or TSO-C196 which output horizontal protection level (HPL) or
horizontal integrity level (HIL) should set the SIL = 3 because HPL and HIL are based on a
probability of 1x10-7 per hour. Do not base NIC or SIL on horizontal uncertainty level (HUL)
information.

You can't just say "oh, it's a GPS, it's always right. SDA=2, SIL=3". You have to demonstrate that it is engineered to be statistically correct. SDA=2 means you only transmit a wrong position once every 100,000 flight hours. This includes times when GPS satelites themselves break and start transmitting wrong data, or when the atmosphere is really unusual and causes position errors. These are known to happen more often than every 100,000 hours, which is once every 4,167 days, or 11 years. So your system must be proven to work with those errors or it doesn't meet SDA=2.

So, for a GPS like the one in SkyView that hasn't gone though the TSO or other processes to demonstrate that it's reliable, we set the SDA and SIL to 0 as is required. It's this SDA and SIL that let the world know you are transmitting "low integrity" position, and how the FAA would know that you are not compliant if you entered airspace after 2020.
 
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Thanks for the numbers.
So the spec is one error every 11 years. That's 11 years of flying 24 hours a day, every day. And error means off by 300 feet (How close together is ATC planning on putting aircraft?). Can anyone say these requirements are not incredible overkill?
 
As a side note, during some early testing of my 496 we found that every once in a while (almost every flight), the 496 would put out a bogus Lat and Long. Some times it would be half way around the world and some times it would be all zeros, and that was with WAAS enabled.

Granted the 496 is old technology now but that might explain why the FAA has such tight tolerances, as described above.
 
So, for a GPS like the one in SkyView that hasn't gone though the TSO or other processes to demonstrate that it's reliable, we set the SDA and SIL to 0 as is required. It's this SDA and SIL that let the world know you are transmitting "low integrity" position, and how the FAA would know that you are not compliant if you entered airspace after 2020.
So, given that this is a known and reported "fuzziness" in the position reporting of any given aircraft, why couldn't free flight be designed to give a wider radius of avoidance with regards to separation minimums? It's a big sky, just use a little more of it if there's some level of doubt, just like I do when I hear someone on Unicom that seems a little iffy on their position reporting.

Off topic: If I were considering a Dynon vs. Garmin installation, I would be asking myself when Garmin support has ever engaged users in an interactive conversation like this. Well done, Dynon Support!
 
Thanks for the numbers.
So the spec is one error every 11 years. That's 11 years of flying 24 hours a day, every day. And error means off by 300 feet (How close together is ATC planning on putting aircraft?). Can anyone say these requirements are not incredible overkill?

Easy to do: with 10 planes it drops down to about once a year, now calculate what it is with 19,000 planes which is the peak traffic at about 3 pm EST...:eek:

http://www.quora.com/How-many-airplanes-are-in-the-air-at-any-given-time-in-the-US
 
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Off topic: If I were considering a Dynon vs. Garmin installation, I would be asking myself when Garmin support has ever engaged users in an interactive conversation like this. Well done, Dynon Support!

It happens quite often with Garmin (TeamX). Maybe not always in the way as you see here in this thread but it happens.

TeamX is very active in educating their potential/existing customers on subjects like this.

Garmin has also turned a new leaf even in the certified world as we have seen much communication here from one of those guys as well.

Here are a few searches that sorta show the commitment Garmin has made to Experimental avionics:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/search.php?do=finduser&u=12964

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/search.php?do=finduser&u=813 (most of these are personal post but there are a few examples in here)

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/search.php?do=finduser&u=17383
 
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Dynon Support,

Thanks for the answer on how FAA knows the ADS-B out does not meet the TSO. Everytime I think I understand ADS I learn something I didn't know. BTW, you guys make a great product. When I had my encoder check done the tech mentioned that he had never flunked a Dynon unit on a transponder encoder check.

Rich
 
Designrs,
That says non-TSO is allowed, but not portable.

How does a portable deal with AC 20-165 which requires:

(1) The barometric altitude used for the ADS-B broadcast must be from the same source as the barometric altitude used for the ATC transponder Mode C reply, if an altitude-encoding transponder is installed in the aircraft.

(5) Single Point of Entry. Aircraft equipped with a transponder and ADS-B system should provide the pilot a single point of entry into both systems for the Mode 3/A code, IDENT, and emergency status. If ADS-B equipment sets the emergency status, IDENT, or Mode 3/A code based on entry of these parameters into a separate transponder, the STC/TC needs to identify the appropriate transponder interfaces. Experience in the CAPSTONE program demonstrated that operator mitigations to prevent differing codes from being entered in the transponder and ADS-B system were ineffective and resulted in numerous false and misleading proximity alerts for ATC. Additionally, there are workload and safety concerns of requiring the pilot to enter the Mode 3/A code, IDENT, and emergency codes multiple times. Thus, if you do not provide a single point of entry for the mode 3/A code, IDENT, and emergency code you must accomplish a human factors evaluation and an additional system safety assessment as follows:

(a) Human Factors Evaluation. Installations not providing a single point of entry must accomplish an evaluation of the pilot interface controls to ensure the design minimizes the potential for entry errors by the flight crew, and enables the flight crew to detect and correct errors that do occur. Evaluate the system interface design to ensure that dual entry of the emergency status, IDENT, and Mode 3/A code does not introduce significant additional workload, particularly when communicating an aircraft emergency. See paragraph 4-1 e (4) for additional information on the human factors evaluation.

(b) System Safety Assessment. Transmission of false or misleading information is considered to be a major failure effect and may not occur at a rate greater than 1X10-5 per hour for ADS-B systems. Installations not providing a single point of entry must accomplish a safety assessment that demonstrates that the probability of the transponder and ADS-B system ever transmitting differing Mode 3/A codes is less than 1X10-5 per hour. The analysis must consider the potential of all pilot errors.

Not sure fumbling with your iPhone to set the Mode A code in your portable ADS-B device in an emergency is going to pass that. The battery in your iPhone is likely to be dead more than once every 100,000 flight hours.

Anyway, not trying to knock their product, and I've probably already argued too much about something that isn't our business. I do think a portable has some real challenges in the ADS-B world. All aircraft are subject to the FARs, and it's quite an uphill battle to claim an AC doesn't apply to you. It's not ok to transmit whatever you want until 2020, it's just that after 2020 you need some specific things to fly in rule airspace. If there was a solid written opinion of how a portable fits within the regulations that could be interpreted to prevent it, I think it would help sales a lot. It's one of the reasons that Dynon is willing to be so active in the ADS-B area- because we want to lead experiementals to be fully within the regs at affordable prices, not trying to argue the rules don't apply to "us", and we're trying to help educate everyone about what they need and what the rules say.

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
 
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Better than the AC, the regulation directly requires the ADS-B out to be installed. The FAA has an established history that "installed" means permanently mounted in the aircraft. Otherwise it is a PED, which is also well defined as a device that is not permanently mounted in an airplane.

From one of many places in 14CFR section 91.225.

(b) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft below 18,000 feet MSL and in airspace described in paragraph (d) of this section unless the aircraft has equipment installed that--

The intent of ADS-B out is to be the foundation of future aircraft position reporting (surveillance) system that is much more accurate than the ASR radar system today. The expected position accuracy considering all technical errors is expected to to be something like +- 100m horizontally or less. When you consider GPS accuracy worst case, system latencies and aircraft speeds this is actually pretty aggressive. When you do the installation you will notice that one requirement is to establish where on the airplane the GPS antenna is and the size of the airplane.

In the end this will allow traffic in terminal areas to be much more direct and closer together, thereby increasing system throughput and reducing flight times. It will enable ATC to allow multiple aircraft on an IFR approach at airports without Radar.

Not sure if that helps or not but maybe some understanding of the why.
 
Fascinating reading. My RV-12 Skyview is ADSB out and in (with the optional Dynon box) and I love it. I've been cruising along thinking that about 2018 Dynon would come out with a new hockey puck GPS receiver that would be plug-in and make my system 2020 compliant. About $400 I guessed, and all would be well.... Hmmm, maybe I've been too optimistic! Well, maybe someone can figure out how to hack the contents of the SDA and SIL registers, change the numbers, and take your chances? (Avalanche in 3......2......1...... ...... ... ..)
 
Thank you Dynon for the input. Much appreciated. Great thread with much complexity. So if an aircraft is currently equipped with a Dynon D-100, what do your recommend for affordable ADS-B out?
 
Richard,

I installed the Freeflight XVR-978. I use an IPad for ADS-B In. Great combination! They are discounting the system until the end of the year.

Rich
 
Great thread. Keep the info coming. Thanks Dynon support for the details.

Let's not turn this into Dynon vs. Garmin or whatever other company. This is obviously very important information to all of us and it's healthy discussions about understanding the current regs.
 
Hello,

Garmin is always happy to share information we have about the requirements of ADS-B Out compliance, and as others have pointed out, we have done so many times in the past. Here is one example.

2013 ADS-B Out Thread

Those that have equipped their aircraft for IFR operation with certified GPS/GNS/GTN WAAS GPS navigators have a relatively simple path to ADS-B Out compliance in 2020 (add an appropriate 1090ES transponder like the GTX23ES), and most are already fully compliant.

All of us equipping for and flying VFR, the focus of this thread, have significantly different challenges and may be frustrated that our excellent non-certified WAAS GPS receivers that we use to navigate VFR anywhere in the world are not considered sufficient to provide the position source data for ADS-B Out. These units are so accurate that we even render the center-line of runways in synthetic vision as we takeoff and land. The positional accuracy of these units can be as high as 3 meters 95% of the time.

These WAAS GPS receivers employ features such as fault detection and exclusion (FDE) to identify and exclude data received from poorly performing satellites to safeguard against a corrupted position solution, but admittedly, there are fewer safeguards and notifications of degraded accuracy than available in say, a GTN 650 WAAS GPS receiver used to fly an IFR LPV approach to minimums which has very strict and well defined integrity monitoring requirements.

Many in industry have pointed out to the regulatory authority that VFR only aircraft are only operating in see-and-avoid conditions and ATC does not provide traffic separation between IFR and VFR aircraft in these conditions.

The following is from the Airman's Information Manual (AIM), Chapter 4, Section 4:

When weather conditions permit, during the time an IFR flight is operating, it is the direct responsibility of the pilot to avoid other aircraft since
VFR flights may be operating in the same area without the knowledge of ATC. Traffic clearances provide standard separation only between IFR
flights.

As such, perhaps there is little reason, if any, for the high hardware and software design assurance requirements of FAR 91.227 for VFR equipage and operation.

One potential exception is VFR operation in Class B airspace. As specified in the AIM, an ATC clearance is required for all aircraft to operate in this area, and all aircraft that are so cleared receive separation services within the airspace. The cloud clearance requirement for VFR operations is “clear of clouds.” Since relatively few of us operate our VFR only aircraft in/out of Class B airspace, we would probably accept some additional operational restrictions in Class B if required to allow us to continue to use our non-certified position sources for ADS-B Out.

Don't forget that we are continuously squittering SDA=0 and notifying ATC that we are using a lower design assurance position source (but not necessarily lower accuracy), so ATC could take this into account when providing Class B separation services if they chose to.

Safety is certainly served by having all VFR aircraft providing ADS-B Out, and the path to achieving this is affordability. Many of us hope for a rule change that would allow us to continue to use our presently non-compliant non-certified position source in combination with our certified 1090ES transponder past January 1, 2020. In the absence of such a rule change, all of us will make the best of the ever increasing number of equipage choices for compliance.

Thanks,
Steve
 
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Fascinating reading. My RV-12 Skyview is ADSB out and in (with the optional Dynon box) and I love it. I've been cruising along thinking that about 2018 Dynon would come out with a new hockey puck GPS receiver that would be plug-in and make my system 2020 compliant. About $400 I guessed, and all would be well.... Hmmm, maybe I've been too optimistic! Well, maybe someone can figure out how to hack the contents of the SDA and SIL registers, change the numbers, and take your chances? (Avalanche in 3......2......1...... ...... ... ..)

I would bet that you are not that far from the truth, Bill. What looks today as a technical challenge will become more and more feasible as the deadline gets closer and as investment pours to solve this issue and reap promising returns.
The solution will be largely software, not that Skyview (and likely it's Garmin competitor) could do it with the processing power they currently have. As airliners will be equipped first with early gold plated solutions I am confident that these solutions will trickle down to us via the Dynons and Garmins of the world. Five years from now there will be black boxes available feeding our Skyviews/Garmins with ADSB out for less than $1K, the hardware (including powerful provessors) will cost just a couple hundred bucks and the magic will be done through software with a cost close to zero. No need to hack, just be patient!
 
Aviation Week recently ran an article about the status of equipping for 2020. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the gist was that if you divide the number of US registered aircraft without ADS-B by the number of work days between now and 2020 you get a number of installations per day that is not achievable. The implication is that FAA will have to modify the 2020 requirement or ground a size able part of the GA fleet.

I've been flying with ADS-B In with a portable receiver for two years, and now with the TSO'd Out/In for about four months. I love the additional information it makes available, and dropped my XM subscription on the 496. It was expensive, and a pain to install, but I'm glad it's done.
 
. The implication is that FAA will have to modify the 2020 requirement or ground a size able part of the GA fleet.
.

Or many pilots will just stay below 10,000' and clear of class B and C airspace. Since I'm based within a mode C veil I won't be one of them, but others may make this choice.
 
I continue to learn more and more about ADS-B. I wanted to have ADS-B in and out for traffic and weather, so chose a Navwork UAT, with reasonable price negotiated at Sun N Fun.
At the time it was non-TSO'd, but Navworx has since received that TSO and will do the upgrade at no cost. However, it does not use a certified GPS receiver. I didn't think ATC would ever know, but then I learned about SIL/SDA... dang it!

In 2015 I can have that GPS TSO upgrade for $500. I also have a Garmin 430W that could serve as a certified position source and save that five hundred Avgas dollars. My understanding is that Garmin will not share the protocols to do so. ... dang it.

I can imagine that it was a Garmin decision to allow input from a wide range of devices, but the 430W will only speak to Garmin brothers and sisters, such as the GTX330ES. This is what I've been told. I don't know if it is an accurate statement of not.

Perhaps Steve (G3Xpert) might elaborate, if he is able. Please don't consider this vendor bashing... we just all want to know.

Don
 
I think you may have this backwards? Trig says you can use a 430W with their S-ES transponder as an approved position source. But I think if you want to display ADSB-in info on your 430, most non Garmin boxes won't talk to it.
 
I think you may have this backwards? Trig says you can use a 430W with their S-ES transponder as an approved position source. But I think if you want to display ADSB-in info on your 430, most non Garmin boxes won't talk to it.

You can display traffic on the 430 via the 429 buss using the Freeflight or Navworks boxes.
 
Navworx displays on the 430. I cannot speak to the Trig.

Don

The Navworks, like the Freeflight is a 978 UAT device (ADS-B xmtr & recvr) and both will display traffic only on the 430.

The Trig and all other mode S transponders like the 330ES do not recieve ADS-B data so they won't display anything, you need a ADS-B reciever for that.
 
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