IFR GPS?

What is the cheapest/easiest way to add TSO'd GPS receiver for IFR including precision approaches to a Sport EFIS? I know the the internal GRT GPS is VFR only as are most.

And can it be a receiver only (for position data) or does it have to have a moving map with user interface? (no more panel space available)

Bevan

I cannot speak to Canada, but in the US:

There is no "cheap" way.
US regulations require a gps meeting all the TSO standards (for a precision approach that would be TSO 145/146, I think). I do not know that a map is required but they all have them.
The cheapest new option available is a Garmin GTN series, hardly inexpensive.
Least expensive used is a Apollo/Garmin 480 (I think it will do LPV).
If you give up the precision approaches you can get older stuff, Garmin 300, King KLN89B, to name two. These are obsolete TSO129 boxes but can still be used in the US.
All of these have buttons to push, I think you need to find panel space. Note some of them require annunciators; those that don't (400 series, GTN series) require the box itself be within a certain distance of the "centerline" view, usually meaning the AI, or else you need additional annunciators. I don't think anyone (not even Garmin and the G3X) currently supports complete remote mounting.

As an aside, GRT has been working (for years!) on what you seek: a remote mounted gps that can be used with their EFIS for IFR. I think they've found it much more difficult than they imagined. They don't talk about it anymore.

Bevan,
Bevan,
In the USA, the requirements for IFR are a NAVIGATOR not just a GPS. You must have a screen, databases, software, navigation calculations, etc in the unit. See Dynon's position on this here:

http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1362597418

I see you appear to be in Canada. I can't speak 100% for their GPS requirements and if they would allow a GPS position source to drive an uncertified navigator, but they do have the annoying requirement of a backup:

Sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure."

Click to expand...

So in Canada, you must have a backup that can work with independence, so a single Garmin GTN/GNS with integrated VOR and GPS hooked to a single EFIS doesn't count as far as I know.

Just a word of caution... If you have never used an older King GPS you may want to spend the extra and get a Garmin. I tried a King KLN 89B in my Cessna 310 prior to purchasing my RV for a few years and had a very difficult time with the user interface. It's older technology doesn't lend itself to popularity and not much training found online or even CD courses on how to use it to it's fullest capabilities. But most older Garmin units have a much easier user interface. Maybe even think about going with a Garmin 400 series depending on what you are trying to accomplish. You will certainly find training courses online to get more familiar with it. I was told by my avionics shop just yesterday that Garmin has no more "new" 430's which doesn't surprise me since they've been End of Lifed for a while now. So if you want to buy new and looking for a fully capable GPS, then the 650 is the way to go but it will hurt the checking account significantly as you compare it to older models.

There is no real simple answer here. First, as Dynon mentions there are some general equipment requirements for IFR in Canada, next there ar some fairly specific requirements for GPS usage in IFR. There is a fairly straightforward AIC from NavCanada that spells out what GPS devices (or at least their TSO) can be used for what phases of flight. Details here: https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and-services/Documents/AIP/Next/part_5_aic/5aic_eng_2008_16.pdf

Next, you'll need to know if you already have ARINC capability (and possibly annunciations) in your EFIS. Lastly, you need to figure out which device(s) will meet all those requirements AND work with your EFIS.

I'm sorry I have no specific answer for you because the answer at this point is: "it depends...".

Cheers,
Stein

400W??

Bevan said:

What is the cheapest/easiest way to add TSO'd GPS receiver for IFR including precision approaches to a Sport EFIS? I know the the internal GRT GPS is VFR only as are most.

And can it be a receiver only (for position data) or does it have to have a moving map with user interface? (no more panel space available)

Bevan

Click to expand...

I have a Garmin 400W that I plan to add to my Sport based set-up in a few days.

Get yourself a GTN 400W from someone like Stein and get the ARINC module from GRT.

This all assumes that you either have something like an SL-30 or you don't care about the ILS, VOR, Localizer stuff. It also assumes that you already have all the COMM you need.

I have been running an SL30 for a few years so that will cover ILS, Localizer and VOR approaches if needed. (Should be rare, given the 400W). Also covers COMM that the 400W lacks.

James

400W

I was fortunate enough to find a barely used Garmin 400w out of an Eclipse jet for $3000. Might check the local avionics shops to see if anyone has one from an upgrade that they don't feel like marketing.

John

Hmmm, I will have to look into that and wonder what the dimensions are for the 400W.

I already have SL30.

Bevan

SteinAir said:

I'm sorry I have no specific answer for you because the answer at this point is: "it depends...".

Click to expand...

Yes, my question is Canada specific because this is where I am based, but would like to eventually file IFR into the US (lower requirements?). After reading that document Stein posted, I get the impression that IFR certified GPS in Canada is not practical since the standards are so high and backups are still required. So I will change the discussion slightly...

What are the recommended changes I need to make to convert my RV7A to an IFR platform? Currently I have...

1 GRT Sport EFIS (Nav data available from either GPS)
Backup analog instruments including (airspeed, altimeter, compass)
Garmin 396 (VFR only)
SL60 Navcomm (enroute and terminal operation)
SL30 Navcomm (VOR)
Two-axis auto pilot (GPS data can come from EFIS or direct from either GPS)
Heated Pitot and Alt static

I don't have ARINC at this point.

I have desigated space for a 2nd EFIS which will fulfill the requirement for a backup display (and eliminate the need for backup analog instruments if they become redundant). I realize that will be very useful all other times for a permanent map display/engine display.

I don't want to add ADF as there is no room on the panel for another "radio". This is why I was asking about a GOS module that could go under behind the panel somewhere (just to give accurate position data to the EFIS).

Bevan

Bevan said:

This is why I was asking about a GPS module that could go under behind the panel somewhere (just to give accurate position data to the EFIS).

Click to expand...

Hi Bevan,
Unfortunately adding a simple GPS module for position data won't help for IFR, since you still need to have a database that has all of the approach procedures to drive the "needle", and currently the EFIS does not support this. All of this is built in to the IFR approach rated GPS.

The caveat here is that you asked for precision GPS approaches, which as mentioned, is very expensive. However, if non-precision IFR approaches are acceptable, there are a lot of options for older GPS units that will work, such as the KLN-89B, the KLN-94, Apollo GX-50 and GX-60, etc. I've seen units like these sell for $500 or so, used and in good working condition. Database updates are still available.

I have an Apollo GX-50 hooked to a GRT HX, and it works fine. Not as fancy as the newer Garmin units, but works for running the autopilot and doing the older "step down" GPS approaches.

-Dj

Hi Bevan,

As DJ noted, you won't find a remote GPS that will be certified for approaches to work with your EFIS. That means a panel mount is needed for your quest. That said, you are off to a very good start with the equipment in your plane, simply installing a 430/530/GTN would satisfy your requirements. The 400 series are no longer available new, but you might be able to find some used. Those are 2.66" tall (same for the 430/650's as well).

I'm afraid at the moment that is really your only viable option. The GPSes certified for precision approach will not be the cheaper ones, they will all be quite expensive in comparison - so I guess your options will be either go the non precision route (and the lowered functionality it brings) and keep it affordable, or get the approach certified units to get the increased functionality but spend a bunch more money.

Cheers,
Stein

Check out the Navworx ASD600-BG. I'm getting ready to go that route. It's a TSO-145 remote mount ADS-B and GPS reciever. Meets the requirement for GPS as sole means of nav enroute and terminal down to non-precision RNAV mins and 2020 ADS-B in/out, all for cheaper than a used 430.

Prop Job said:

Check out the Navworx ASD600-BG. I'm getting ready to go that route. It's a TSO-145 remote mount ADS-B and GPS reciever. Meets the requirement for GPS as sole means of nav enroute and terminal down to non-precision RNAV mins and 2020 ADS-B in/out, all for cheaper than a used 430.

Click to expand...

I believe you have expectations beyond what that box can deliver....

How you gonna navigate or select an approach on that with no user interface, no navigational or approach database?

I'm not sure what capabilities the Sport has that the OP is planning to use but the HXr contains a full US database. You may be correct, this may not be applicable for his setup.

Just to clarify - that Navworx box is a position source, NOT a navigator. It can feed position to an FMS with appropriate approvals as a navigator, thus the combination could make an IFR navigator. On its own, the Navworx box is only going to get you ADS-B-out compliance and will be of zero benefit in your IFR navigation solution. Brantel's comments are right on the money - to meet the IFR navigation intent,a navigator requires a user interface to allow the selection of nav waypoints and approaches from an approved database and must provide a means of indicating the various modes of operation (terminal, approach) as well as providing annunciation of other critical pieces of data such as RAIM failure etc. The Navworx box simply does not have any of these features, thus it is only a position source, not a navigator.

Prop Job said:

Check out the Navworx ASD600-BG. I'm getting ready to go that route. It's a TSO-145 remote mount ADS-B and GPS reciever. Meets the requirement for GPS as sole means of nav enroute and terminal down to non-precision RNAV mins and 2020 ADS-B in/out, all for cheaper than a used 430.

Click to expand...

Couple things wrong with that option...first, the OP wanted a GPS to do precision approaches, and 2nd, simply having a TSO145 GPS on board does not qualify you to use "it" by itself as sole means of nav enroute and terminal navigation by any stretch (even if somehow you do find a way to actually use the GPS from the Navworx box in the GRT) due to reasons already noted by others; therefore the Navworx box is of little to no use in this regard/installation. As an ADSB position source, sure...not much else though. This is why I caution people to do their due diligence carefully, lest they end up needing to spend more money than they originally had planned.

I've heard this scenario now from a few folks, and they always are surprised to find out this is not the case - I'm a bit curious where this information may be coming from?

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein

Prop Job said:

I'm not sure what capabilities the Sport has that the OP is planning to use but the HXr contains a full US database. You may be correct, this may not be applicable for his setup.

Click to expand...

The HXr is a experimental unit that does not carry any TSO's. Practically speaking...legally it cannot be used with the Navworx box you mentioned as sole means of navigation in the IFR system. (unless you can prove the combination meets the required TSO's which is not practical. That would cost you many times more time and money than what it is worth to try and do it.)

There is no free or reduced lunch to be legal to file /G in the IFR system. If your gonna do it legally, you have to pay the price.

Prop Job said:

I'm not sure what capabilities the Sport has that the OP is planning to use but the HXr contains a full US database. You may be correct, this may not be applicable for his setup.

Click to expand...

I do not believe that even the HXr would work. To my knowledge, none of the GRT or other branded EFIS units have the appropriate software to let you select and fly an approach from a simple GPS position source. All of the approach selection and navigation is provided by the external GPS unit (Garmin 430, GTN, etc). The EFIS is just displaying the info that it receives from the external GPS. When you select an approach on the EFIS, it is just passing that request on to the external GPS unit, that in turn tells the EFIS what to display.

I do not know if a full US approach chart database that the EFIS has now is the same thing as a full US IFR navigation database that would be required to perform an actual IFR approach, ie, "drive the needle". It might be, but I'm just not sure.

From a technical perspective, there is no reason why the software could not be written to allow the EFIS to do an approach given a simple GPS position source.

-Dj

Well I feel stupid, at least you guys just saved me a cpl grand. Thanks for getting me to dig a little deeper.

In a few posts here on VAF, I have stated that I was installing the Navworx ADS600-BG and planned to use the WAAS GPS output. Just to reiterate, I planned this as a second nav source to save my bacon in case my 430W decided to quit. I am confident in the GRT synthetic approaches for this purpose. The posts above are certainly correct that this nav source is not approved for IFR because it is not paired with an approved database and has no RAIM prediction. It is only a position source. Secondarily, the FAA is not currently allowing the GPS output on the certified Navworx units. I have wired for it and am 'waiting on the next release".

SteinAir said:

I've heard this scenario now from a few folks, and they always are surprised to find out this is not the case - I'm a bit curious where this information may be coming from?

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein

Click to expand...

"I read it on the internet, so it must be true".

To come back to Bevan's original question about Canadian IFR, I'll add the following (excerpted from our conversation outside this forum and posted at Bevan's request).

===================
Hi Bevan,

Your post about getting your ship IFR-capable is one that strikes deep at the heart of many Canuck homebuilders. I won't pretend to know all the rules, however I will share with you some of my journey from VFR to IFR-capable.

Starting point... Good solid VFR panel with GRT Horizon WS EFIS with Arinc 429 module, TruTrak ADI Pilot II autopilot, ASI, Alt, and an SL30 nav-com plus Garmin 396. A PMA8000 audio panel ties it all together.

Ending point... Fully redundant IFR panel. Upgraded GRT WS to HS size. Turfed the steam gauges and installed a GRT Mini-X. Upgraded the autopilot to Vizion 385 to allow fully coupled approaches. And (drumroll, please!) installed a GNS480 WAAS navigator.

The rationale... I wanted a 2nd comm radio as I live near Ottawa and frequently needed to monitor Terminal while on unicom. I himmed and hawed on this for a year and just could not bring myself to install that 2nd comm because I kept thinking that what I really wanted was IFR capability.

The GNS480 is an older box, is a WAAS navigator, and blows away the 430 in terms of user interface. It also brings along a great comm and a full VOR/ILS nav radio. With it mounted within the prescribed pilot viewing area, no secondary nav indicator is required, nor are independent mode annunciators (I've installed mode annunciators anyway).

This gets you 2x comm, 2x nav, 1x approach-certified GPS. More than the minimum requirement.

I installed the Mini-X so I would have redundant primary flight instruments, plus it will act as a redundant nav indicator. It is much smaller and lighter than the steam gauges it replaces, and gives far more capability.

To aid in redundancy I installed a very simple Essential Buss architecture. A 25A circuit breaker on the main buss provides power, through a diode, to a small sealed lead-acid battery. The output of the battery goes through a simple switch to the Essential buss, which is a gaggle of 6 circuit breakers. These CB's power the Mini-X, the Horizon HS, the GNS480 and nothing else. When the alternator or main battery fail, everything necessary to 'get me home' draws its power from the essential battery. Simple, with zero pilot intervention required to achieve redundant operation.

Don't forget to add an alternate static air source; Stein sells a pretty nifty toggle switch-style device that fits in well with many other switches in our panels, or you can go as simple as a Curtis locking fuel drain valve (as seen on many certificated aircraft).

Your current panel isn't far away from being IFR-capable. Lots of others have suggested you need something like a 430W - from practical experience, I would agree that installing a certified navigator will give you your best bang for the buck as we move away from ground-based and toward space-based navigation. NavCan recently did away with most Victor airways here in southern Ontario, paving the way for GPS navigation. While you can stick with your VOR's, the reality is the airspace is moving toward GPS at a dizzying rate. I didn't want to accept this fact personally until I did some IFR work with a friend. After a few hours of IFR flying the decision to go with a GPS navigator was very easy to make.

BTW, the 430W is still fairly expensive. For my money I would tend to look at only two options; brand new GTN650 or the older GNS480. The 480 has a lot going for it, and with a purchase price generally in the 5-6K range, it's good value for the money. It has a bigger screen than the 430 or 650.

Hope this bit of insight helps as you ponder the future of your panel. I wish you great success!
======================

And a follow-up discussion regarding transponders:
=====================
while the 480 will control a transponder (GTX327, GTX330, GTX33) the better bet is to use your Mini-X to control a Trig TT22 mode S transponder. The TT22 is small, light, relatively inexpensive, and an easy way to get to ADS-B-OUT compliance if you want that.

Note that the 480 is NOT currently approved as a position source for ADS-B-OUT, however Garmin has committed to providing one last build of 480 software to make it rule-compliant. With a Mini-X, a TT-22 and a 480 you've got the full suite needed to get ADS-B-OUT.

Not sure if you have any additional space, but by turfing steam gauges in favour of a Mini-X you really do free up a lot of panel space. Sticking the SL30 under your Sport EFIS means you can then use the CDI feature of the SL30 as another backup indicator, too.
==========================

Everybody has their own reasons for choosing their particular suite of avionics. We each have what we believe to be the best solution for our particular needs. The above statements are based on what I feel to meet my personal needs and what I know will meet Canadian requirements for IFR. As others have pointed out, the Canadian requirements go a step further than US requirements, so if you've met the Canadian requirements you will meet the US requirements by default.