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Gas cans in the cockpit

V

Vlad

Well Known Member
Say you need to carry an extra 15 - 20 gallons of fuel to extend only one leg and there is a place to land. Which tanks/gas cans would you use? Plastic, aluminum or steel? Any preferable shapes/sizes? How would you secure it against turbulence? I've flown with two plastic jerry cans in the baggage compartment for about 10 hours up to 15K and I can feel gas smell.
 
I did it once or twice in a Luscombe 8A, when I was flying solo & with only one 5gal plastic can. Apparently, the Luscombe was drafty enough to keep the smell away.

IIRC, 20 gal would exceed the luggage capacity on most of the 2 seat RV's. Is that going to be a problem?
 
Fuel vent

The ideal solution is to install a fuel selector valve with an AUX position to allow feeding fuel from the aux tank. Regardless, you must vent the tank to the outside. Fumes in the cockpit have a real potential to screw up your longevity.
That said, I'd go with a plastic fuel tank, they are lighter, more durable (crash worthy) and are made to seal fuel in. Make a harness that will bolt into the seatbelt fittings.
It sounds like you are planning a fun challenge.
 
Having flown with gas fumes in the cockpit, I can attest to the fact that it's really no fun at all. I do remember seeing someone who's rigged a boat tank in the baggage compartment, with a quick disconnect fitting and transfer pump. It was in an RV-12 which made it a little simpler.

EDIT: Have you looked at these? A Google search for collapsible fuel bladder turned up a number of suppliers. You could seal them to keep them from leaking liquid or fumes.
 
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Whatever you do please be careful and ensure the installation is airworthy, gas fumes/leaking fuel in the cockpit can really ruin your day (I think fire is every pilots worst nightmare).
 
You could have a torso size ballistic nylon fuel cell made for you. These will collapse as you descend with no ill consequences, should the vent block or be absent. There might be some COTS( commercial off the shelf) units available if you do your research. A coupe of air show rocket guys have GIBS(gallons in back seat) just like this that they connect to a spare port in the fuel valve.

That way you just use the normal seat belt & harness to keep secure the extra mass in the passenger seat, with normal C of G calculations.
 
Vlad said:
Say you need to carry an extra 15 - 20 gallons of fuel to extend only one leg and there is a place to land. Which tanks/gas cans would you use? Plastic, aluminum or steel? Any preferable shapes/sizes? How would you secure it against turbulence? I've flown with two plastic jerry cans in the baggage compartment for about 10 hours up to 15K and I can feel gas smell.
Click to expand...
If I carry them in the cockpit, I go with steel jerry cans, with a UN marking. I don't have any proof whatsoever, but my gut tells me a steel can is likely to be stronger than a plastic one, even in a fire, it'll hold up until it actually ruptures, rather than melting and letting fuel escape.

That being said, I'll shortly be ordering a pair of Marvins 7Gal tanks to permanently install in the -9. To get anywhere down here, you need to fly for a loooong time.
 
Boat tanks although plastic, are designed to be moved around,(carried) and are very strong, with decent connector hose to quick connect...check out west marine or or other boat supply houses...Tom
 
jdearborn said:
The ideal solution is to install a fuel selector valve with an AUX position to allow feeding fuel from the aux tank. Regardless, you must vent the tank to the outside. Fumes in the cockpit have a real potential to screw up your longevity.
That said, I'd go with a plastic fuel tank, they are lighter, more durable (crash worthy) and are made to seal fuel in. Make a harness that will bolt into the seatbelt fittings.
It sounds like you are planning a fun challenge.
Click to expand...

Another advantage to this would be to burn the aux fuel first (get it out of there ASAP)
 
Not sure of your intentions, "... a place to land...". You're going to fly upwards of 7-8 hours on one leg with assurance of a landing site that far away in time and distance? My bladder would be the limiting factor. OR... are you simply carrying fuel in loose containers to transfer at an outlying landing spot? If the latter, with much experience, I can tell you to leave very little air space in the containers. It's the volume of air that expands and farts fumes when you climb. Minimal air = contained farts. Once you've emptied the (plastic) cans, leave the cap off so the remaining vapors are quickly exhausted. Recapping will allow fume farts every time you climb or as the ambient warms.

John Siebold
 
Vlad said:
Say you need to carry an extra 15 - 20 gallons of fuel to extend only one leg and there is a place to land.
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The way I read this, you want to carry jerry cans, land, and pour them into the aircraft?

Use good quality plastic gas cans, the ones with some form of certification printed on it. Once you fill them, tighten all the caps, then tip it on the side and apply some pressure to the side. Any leaks will show up as big streaks of fuel. If there's no leaks, then you won't smell gasoline in flight.

Also, I wouldn't fly at 15,000' either. The difference in atmospheric pressure is quite a bit. I'd limit myself to 8000 or 9000, and even at that, you will have ~4psi inside the container.
 
How far are you going?

Vlad said:
Say you need to carry an extra 15 - 20 gallons of fuel to extend only one leg and there is a place to land. Which tanks/gas cans would you use? Plastic, aluminum or steel? Any preferable shapes/sizes? How would you secure it against turbulence? I've flown with two plastic jerry cans in the baggage compartment for about 10 hours up to 15K and I can feel gas smell.
Click to expand...

Are you off to the Aleutian Islands and beyond? Or doing the Geenland / Iceland hop?
 
Thank you guys all good tips. I won't do any modification to existing stock fuel system. Turtlepack looks great but way too expensive to be used only once. I do plan a little venture. I would like to fly to an island with a bare airstrip and back. It's more then one hour flight from departure airport with fuel assuming no wind. Add wind, a little aerial exploration of the vicinities and gas will be at the very minimum on return to the base. So pouring from couple jerry cans into the wing tanks would look like a great exercise. There won't be neither 7-8 hour legs nor 4-5. More like 2-3 on average. No stratosphere flights either. :)
 
I have some 5gal chemical plastic jugs with no vent to leak and a gasket sealing cap. I would use these to do the job. I have a few in ct that I use to carry Mogas.
 
What happens if you have a hard - but otherwise survivable - landing with this sort of container in the cockpit?

Dave
 
This style of gas can is remarkably tough. You see them sliding out of pickup trucks and bouncing down a gravel road. In a previous job, I'd see the remains of black bears trying to get into them. Just a couple bite marks where their teeth penetrated the plastic. Some big gouges into the plastic from the claws that didn't penetrate.

In an accident, I'd be more worried with the wing tanks being ripped open.

In Canada, there's a "Limited Access" provision in our Dangerous Goods Regulations that allow up to 230L (60.8gal) of gasoline/diesel/jetA to be carried in this style of container on commercial aircraft with passengers. It's only allowed if the destination does not have the available resources that you require. Eg. remote aerodromes, such as your trip.


gas-can-with-spout.jpg
 
As already mentioned, Turtlepac makes a nice but expensive potential solution. There are other similar bladders available from different suppliers - no names come immediately to mind but a google search should turn them up. Over at backcountrypilot.com there have been several discussions of this sort of thing.

Cheers,
Greg
 
David Z said:
This style of gas can is remarkably tough. You see them sliding out of pickup trucks and bouncing down a gravel road. In a previous job, I'd see the remains of black bears trying to get into them. Just a couple bite marks where their teeth penetrated the plastic. Some big gouges into the plastic from the claws that didn't penetrate.

In an accident, I'd be more worried with the wing tanks being ripped open.

In Canada, there's a "Limited Access" provision in our Dangerous Goods Regulations that allow up to 230L (60.8gal) of gasoline/diesel/jetA to be carried in this style of container on commercial aircraft with passengers. It's only allowed if the destination does not have the available resources that you require. Eg. remote aerodromes, such as your trip.


gas-can-with-spout.jpg
Click to expand...

Good to know. Can you post a link to that Reg?

Do you fill them to the mark, squeeze the air out and then tighten both the cap and the vent?

Bevan
 
It should really be either a vented or flexible container.

Something like this would work (I have a couple) or you could pay a lot more for one of the turtlepac equivalents.

You can get vented fuel jugs from the racing guys like Summit that have handles ideally placed for securing with a seat belt. You may want to pipe the vent somewhere away from the cabin.

P1010661_zpsb70476d7.jpg
 
I havn't done this with an RV, but I did set up a 20 litre red plastic can to feed into the main tank on another plane. I connected an outlet from the bottom of the fuel container to the main tank vent and a vent line from the top of the container. The container has to be airtight, except for the vent line. When you start fuel is drawn from the container into the main tank as the vent sucks it. When the container is empty or very nearly so the main tank is vented through the container.
Just make sure you use the tank it is connected to first to get the fuel out of the cockpit.
 
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We have a couple of these bags too. They work pretty well to get fuel from the gas station to the airplane.

Ours were missing the o ring under the cap. It is essential! We found a replacement at McMaster. We also keep ours in a large zip lock bag which helps contains any odor.

Jim & Heather
Europa XS
 
fuel tank / smoke tank

Like Mike said call Marv at smoke system helper. Use tank for fuel tee's into the stock Van's fuel valve then unhook it and plumb it in for your smoke system. You will have fun with the smoke.:)
 
Alaska Airframes

Alaska Airframes sell 5 gallon bladder tanks. The Supercub guys use these for extra gas
 
Bevan said:
Good to know. Can you post a link to that Reg?

Do you fill them to the mark, squeeze the air out and then tighten both the cap and the vent?

Bevan
Click to expand...

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/tdg/clear-part12-466.htm#sec129

Fill them to the line, leaving the head-space. Tighten the the cap and the vent so no liquid, vapor or anything will escape. That's the leak test I mentioned earlier where you set the container on it's side so both the opening and vent are below the fuel level. Any leaks are very obvious, and are fixed.

You take one of these containers, and leave them half full and sealed on your driveway while you cut the lawn, and 30 minutes later it's inflated like a balloon. They will hold a lot more pressure than is required to fly at 9000' from sea level.
 
I would use a plastic can and as one poster said, fill it to the top and eliminate all the air. It's the air that expands and contracts with temp and altitude, not the fuel - no air, no expansion. Screw the cap on tight and forget about it. If you have a good seal on the cap you shouldn't smell anything. Also, fill them up a day or 2 before so you're sure the outside of the can is completely dry. The odor from one drop of gasoline will be very noticeable in the confines of a small cockpit. If you don't have them, bolt in the luggage strap attachments as per Vans plans and use a ratchet strap.
 
I mounted two 5-gallon plastic cans in the front baggage compartment of my RV-8. I use the rear can for smoke oil and the front one for fuel. An interconnect hose with a shutoff valve allows me to use both tanks for fuel or both for smoke oil if necessary. My Andair fuel selector has an AUX position and both tanks have Van's flop tubes for inverted flight and vents to the aircraft exterior.



A locking gas cap on the fuel cell insures that some idiot won't put smoke oil in the fuel can while I'm not looking. (Used this system for several years with no problems and recently sold the smoke oil tank and pump as I no longer do air shows.)
 
I think Dan C. made a tank that fit in the passenger seat. Check with him.

Alsi, if you have the Van's fuel valve, it has an unused port.
 
I know a guy who used to carry a 40oz pepsi bottle full of 100LL in....his pitts! I think he just put it between his knees when he was going somewhere. And this was NOT the most stupid thing he did.

The really scary part is that he is an airline captain.

As my Father (ex Airforce) used to say: "you will only go when your card comes to the top of the deck, but you can do a helluva lot of shuffling to get it there"
 
These might work for you. Check out the link.

http://mil.sceptermilitary.com/fuel_containers

I've seen them for sale on the internet, including eBay, from various places in the U.S., although they don't meet current regulations for retail sale. In Canada, some auto parts suppliers have them. I purchased mine from Princess Auto.

When full, the 20 liter (5.3 gallon) size weighs 38 lbs. (avgas + container weight), which is an awkward size and weight to heft into the baggage area on a side-by-side RV. With the cap fully tightened, there is no venting of fumes at the 3000' to 4000' altitudes I've flown with them to date.

I thought recalled seeing a Transport Canada document specifically allowing their transport, full of fuel, in airplanes in Canada anyway.
 
Av8torTom said:
It's the air that expands and contracts with temp and altitude, not the fuel - no air, no expansion.
Click to expand...

It is true that it is primarily the air in a tank that expands and contracts with altitude (pressure change) but the liquid fuel will expand or contract a lot with temp. change.
Personally, I wouldn't have an aux tank in the cockpit area that didn't have at least a temporary vent connection to the outside.
 
Stupid idea

Scott.... Stupid question. Why did he have a 40oz container of 100LL between
his knees? That airplane is hard enough to fly...Maybe I'm missing something here.

I think I'll stay off his airline though.
 
Vlad, I have a few of these you are welcome to borrow:

41U4LVDckbL.jpg


Nice small cap in the large cap that would allow you to fill them so that there is no air, 6 plus gallons each using that method.

Also have one cap modified with a fill tube with shutoff valve.
 
Thanks Mike. I have left two cans with Bruce Stamper at Cordova. I would like to borrow two more of those from you.
 
Leaving the air is probably safer. The fuel, being a liquid isn't compressible, the air is. I'd be worried that any fuel expansion or contraction would cause serious damage to the container if no head-space was left.

I used to carry 13 5gal gas cans in the back of a C180 on floats. Filled them to the full line, left the air gap, tightened all the caps, made sure no fuel would leak out, tied them down and went flying. Never smelled gas in the cockpit, no expansion or contraction problems.
 
I don't think that the idea was to fill to the brim. It's to fill to the normal fill line, then flex the sides of the (plastic) container inward, expelling the air and capping the container. Then the small expansion of the fuel partially returns the container to its normal shape. Very doubtful that the fuel will expand enough to fill the previous air space, especially since it's almost always cooler where you're flying than on the ground. The air tries to expand a lot with reduced air pressure at altitude; fuel not so much, right?
 
Flyingleap said:
Scott.... Stupid question. Why did he have a 40oz container of 100LL between
his knees? That airplane is hard enough to fly...Maybe I'm missing something here.

I think I'll stay off his airline though.
Click to expand...

So he could fly to his destination and top off and fly back. There was either no fuel at destination or it was too expensive. I couldn't make this up.

We all know 1 guy like this.
 
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