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OSH PiRep-----Six cylinder E mag?

Mike S

Senior Curmudgeon
Well, OSH is officially going, it is late July, and the six cyl Emag was supposed to be shipping in June.

Anybody at OSH happen to stop off at their booth and get an update?
 
Mike, I just left their booth, buying 2 for my plane. There was a guy talking about it, but I didn't pay attention since I just have the 4 cyl. I will try and get back by there
 
I scanned through both vids and did not see the PMag reference. Can you give us a time stamp (and vid) where you saw it?
 
I asked Brad today and he said they should be shipping in August. I forgot to ask which year.....:confused:
 
The website is updated to indicate August is the "earliest" they will start shipping:

...Our plan was to start shipping the first units in June, but that target was not met and July is not looking better. August is the earliest we can see shipments starting. We truly regret any inconvenience this may cause...
 
Just for the heck of it------------------gonna ask once again.

Anybody have one of these critters in their hands?????

Or, are they still looking for the unobtainium mine ....................
 
Just for the heck of it------------------gonna ask once again.

Anybody have one of these critters in their hands?????

Or, are they still looking for the unobtainium mine ....................


C'mon Mike, they promised delivery at Oshkosh. They just didn't tell you which Oshkosh it would be. :eek:
 
Now October 20XX

From their website:

"Note 9/5/15: Our hopes for a summer release were not met. At this point we are shooting for first deliveries in October. We regret any inconvenience for the delays."
 
From their website:

"Note 9/5/15: Our hopes for a summer release were not met. At this point we are shooting for first deliveries in October. We regret any inconvenience for the delays."

Yeah-------------saw that.

But I find the information here to be a lot more reliable.
 
Not that I have a need for these, I just wonder why, when they know that they've had huge problems getting these things ready for deliveries, do they even state a "we hope to have them ready" time frame at all. Simply say they're working on it and hope to have them "soon". That way they never fail! :D

Not putting Brad down though. He treated me VERY well with my 4 cyl models. I'd imagine they'll be worth the wait.
 
Maybe they are trying to avoid years of failures with the 6 Cyl like they did (and do) with the 4 Cyl.
 
It was explained to me that the gear ratio of the six cylinder mag is not conducive to the P-Mag concept. The alternator can do its job, but the 4 cylinder turns one to one with the crank, the six turns 1.5 to 1, or something of that nature. Basically it has to be geared down, or compensated for with software... but that makes the timing more of an issue. Basically, crank trigger pickups are the way to go for the Sixes.

I think EFII was playing with the idea of running a small alternator off a mag hole, but I'd imagine so few people are still running vacuum pumps, that this becomes irrelevant. Backup Alternator+EFII+Bus Manager>2 P-mags for a new installation. Retrofitting I don't even want to think about :eek:
 
Maybe they are trying to avoid years of failures with the 6 Cyl like they did (and do) with the 4 Cyl.

That and they want to make sure the physical packaging will work with both Lycoming and Continental engines.

The ignition itself is functional and when I last spoke to them on the issue, they were sourcing the manufacturer of the various components.
 
It was explained to me that the gear ratio of the six cylinder mag is not conducive to the P-Mag concept. The alternator can do its job, but the 4 cylinder turns one to one with the crank, the six turns 1.5 to 1, or something of that nature. Basically it has to be geared down, or compensated for with software... but that makes the timing more of an issue. Basically, crank trigger pickups are the way to go for the Sixes...

I have no direct insight into what's going on behind the month to month slip in delivery, but the fact that they have been flying several of these for years and the fact they are making metal chips on the production floor tells me they have solved the major technical hurdles you have illustrated above. The six is more of a challenge than the four, yes, but they would have to know if that was insurmountable a LONG time ago. I suspect that these late delivery issues are supplier related or something to do with their plans for FAA certification on Lycoming and Continental engines with one basic unit.

I'm not happy about waiting this long, but they really are shooting for the moon with this product. I can cut them some slack.
 
Well, it has been just shy of two months since the last time I last asked ..............

Maybe by Christmas????
 
I talked to Brad e other day and he said he had a few production units going out for testing last week or the week before. People think they've been waiting a long time for the Navworx box. I've been waiting for e 6-cyl P-Mag since 2005
 
I've had a recent conversation with them and they told me essentially what their website says. To sum up: The basic unit works fine (and has for a long time) but getting all the little details worked out between the dozens of subtle and not so subtle varieties of Lycomings AND Continentals and a bunch of other small issues is taking longer than they thought.

I get the sense that they could fill orders for the most common 540s today, but they aren't going to pull the trigger until ALL variations are customer ready.
 
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Humm, my guess is that it doesn't work. I heard a rumor that Tom is no longer at emag, he has moved on to other ventures. Since Tom was the brains of emag it might be the 6 cylinder version wasn't finished and may never be. There are much better EI's out there than emag, I don't know why people are waiting for this system.. Maybe another 1000 units will fail before the bugs are worked out. Time will tell.
 
Humm, my guess is that it doesn't work. I heard a rumor that Tom is no longer at emag, he has moved on to other ventures. Since Tom was the brains of emag it might be the 6 cylinder version wasn't finished and may never be. There are much better EI's out there than emag, I don't know why people are waiting for this system.. Maybe another 1000 units will fail before the bugs are worked out. Time will tell.

I'm not sure this is true. I had a conference call with both Brad and Tom two weeks ago.
 
... There are much better EI's out there than emag, I don't know why people are waiting for this system...

Can you please share with us the other systems available that generate their own power, independant of the ships electrical system?
 
At the present there isn't any other system, that I've seen, that has it's own power source but on the other hand ElectroAir IS the only system that is certified. Buying an ignition system for the sole reason that it has an alternator built in is not a very good argument for a performance upgrade. Pmag's are a poor excuse for a performance upgrade. Their failures are not uncommon and having that built in power source doesn't do much good when the unit quits or shifts timing. If the big concern is a back up power source you can always run a rear alternator or a second battery dedicated to the ignitions.

I know there are other systems about to be released that will have built in power, same as pmag, with far more performance. I hope to see these soon.

The "rumor" of Tom leaving emag came from a very reliable source. That's not to say that Tom is no longer involved, as he probably is, but without Tom doing the design work Brad has no chance to develop products.
 
Buying an ignition system for the sole reason that it has an alternator built in is not a very good argument for a performance upgrade...

Not the SOLE reason, but a very compelling reason. Also, keep in mind that you may have a different set of requirements than someone else.

Pmag's are a poor excuse for a performance upgrade. Their failures are not uncommon and having that built in power source doesn't do much good when the unit quits or shifts timing. If the big concern is a back up power source you can always run a rear alternator or a second battery dedicated to the ignitions..

Again, keep in mind that some of us have been flying behind Pmags for a long time, understand the history, and have the intelligence to formulate our own buying decision.


I know there are other systems about to be released that will have built in power, same as pmag, with far more performance. I hope to see these soon...

First off - do tell us about these other systems.

Second, please define "far more performance" (than Pmag) as it relates to engine output or economy.
 
OK... Laser is certified but they are out of biz and who would ever use those anymore.... They are extremely expensive, finicky and sit inside a Slick magneto that still requires a 500 hour and thrown away. And not much of a performance gain, but some.. And the are as reliable a mags, which is good.

-

If Brad hooks up with another engineer that knows EI's perhaps emag will continue on and perhaps the 6 cylinder pmag will work and be shipped. Brad certainly has no engineering abilities, he will tell you that. He's the frontman. Maybe Tom will continue to work with Brad, who knows.

-

Ya know, Toolbuilder, I really couldn't care less what people buy and install in their aircraft, it is a personal choice and not mine to make. But for the most part people buy what other people buy. Most have never tried any other EI than the pmag cuz lots of people buy pmags. Pilots and builders read the forums and have friends and groups they build and fly with. This certainly does not make pmag a good product. Just because you haven't had problems doesn't mean lots of others haven't. I've seen many pmag failures, I read about them here and other forums, they are common. The first 1000 failed! And they still do.. Ask me! Ask pilots I fly with!

If you don't mind a poor performance upgrade because you like the backup power source than it's a good choice for you. But pmags have little performance increase. They have a weak spark and very little duration, all they have is spark advance. I have installed and used other systems as well as installed and used pmags. I have many years of experience with EI's. Pmags aren't that good, sorry.

Go ahead and ask Brad what the specs are on a pmag, like voltage, current, duration, spark energy... Anything.. He has no idea and will tell you that. Have you ever wondered why a pmag runs on a 3 amp circuit and an ElectroAir (example) runs on a 10 amp circuit? Little in = Little out. The coil on a pmag is a $5 ford focus coil. Not what I would call performance.

I'm not a huge fan of the LSI units but they far out perform a pmag. I've seen and had great performance and reliability from ElectroAir. I have not flown behind an EFII system but have heard good things about them. I have used AeroSparks systems, not reliable and far too complicated.

It's personal choice but don't be fooled by sales pitches. The real truth is the facts and numbers. Maybe people are paying for something they aren't getting.

There are things in the works but sorry I can't say right now.

PS.. For those of you that do not use an EIC with their pmags you might have a big surprise if you ever install one and see exactly what your pmags are really doing.

And BTW.. I have no affiliation with any EI company nor do I have any axe to grind with Brad or emag. I'm just saying it like it is, like it or not, I'm just passing on many years of experience with EI's.
 
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...If you don't mind a poor performance upgrade because you like the backup power source than it's a good choice for you. But pmags have little performance increase. They have a weak spark and very little duration, all they have is spark advance. I have installed and used other systems as well as installed and used pmags. I have many years of experience with EI's. Pmags aren't that good, sorry...

...The coil on a pmag is a $5 ford focus coil. Not what I would call performance...

...I'm not a huge fan of the LSI units but they far out perform a pmag. I've seen and had great performance and reliability from ElectroAir. I have not flown behind an EFII system but have heard good things about them. I have used AeroSparks systems, not reliable and far too complicated...

...It's personal choice but don't be fooled by sales pitches. The real truth is the facts and numbers. Maybe people are paying for something they aren't getting...

...And BTW.. I have no affiliation with any EI company nor do I have any axe to grind with Brad or emag. I'm just saying it like it is, like it or not, I'm just passing on many years of experience with EI's.

Once again, please define "performance" as it relates to engine output and/or efficiency. Data, not opinion.

I know what I've experienced with my airplanes and it isn't the result of glossy advertising. I'd like you to explain what the "$5.00 Ford coil" isn't doing. Please - I'm always willing to learn something new.
 
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Once again, please define "performance" as it relates to engine output and/or efficiency. Data, not opinion.

I know what I've experienced with my airplanes and it isn't the result of glossy advertising. I'd like you to explain what the "$5.00 Ford coil" isn't doing. Please - I'm always willing to learn something new.

Like I said: If you're happy with your pmags then great. Blue Skies.

There is tons of information all over the net explaining electronic ignitions, how and why they work. Here's one for example: http://www.flyefii.com/ignition/ignition_comparison.htm
Jacobs, Vertex, Mallory... tons of them. They all explain how ignitions make horsepower and how they burn fuel. And how coils work, as you inquired.

My own data is on my computer and the knots gained or lost on the same aircraft flying different ignition systems. Aircraft in the group I fly with and their data with different ignition systems. The difference between 2 pmags and an ElectroAir with a Bendix mag was a good 5+ knot loss not to mention much hotter CHT's, this is on my own aircraft.

There is a huge difference in EI's, that is fact. Pmags have little spark energy and little duration, that is also fact. Energy and duration make horsepower, fact again.
 
While I appreciate the tutorial on how ignition systems work, I'm well aware of the theory as well as having plenty of practical experience building automotive drag race/street performance engines.

What I'm looking for is the actual data concerning performance on a 2700 RPM aircraft engine. So you indicate that the Electro air unit/Bendix is 5 MPH faster than the dual PMags? Fair enough. Can you describe the testing conditions that led to this conclusion?

Once again, you have described the Pmags as a "poor performance" choice, yet my ACTUAL experience differs considerably. I'm going to need you to make a more compelling argument than "trust me".

You are doing a pretty good job of dragging Pmags through the mud with every opportunity. Time to back it up or...
 
While I appreciate the tutorial on how ignition systems work, I'm well aware of the theory as well as having plenty of practical experience building automotive drag race/street performance engines.

What I'm looking for is the actual data concerning performance on a 2700 RPM aircraft engine. So you indicate that the Electro air unit/Bendix is 5 MPH faster than the dual PMags? Fair enough. Can you describe the testing conditions that led to this conclusion?

Once again, you have described the Pmags as a "poor performance" choice, yet my ACTUAL experience differs considerably. I'm going to need you to make a more compelling argument than "trust me".

You are doing a pretty good job of dragging Pmags through the mud with every opportunity. Time to back it up or...

I will say this one more time: If you are happy with your pmags, great. Blue Skies.

Just how many other ignitions have you installed in the plane you are so happy with the pmags in?

I'm not asking you or anyone to "trust me". As I said prior, I don't really care what people buy or install, that's everyone's personal choice. What I've posted here is true and fact based, if you don't want to accept the truth you don't have to. I am also posting from many years of aviation experience.
I didn't bring up auto engines. I've built many car, boat and motorcycle race engines but I don't believe these are equivalent since changing altitude and lower RPM's effect aviation engine differently than auto applications.

If I posted a 20 paragraph explanation on ignition timing, spark energy, spark duration, how fuel burns, quench, how coils work, variable timing, how altitude effects fuel burn and timing, etc, etc.. I couldn't do a better job than what's already posted on the net. So why bother.

I'm not dragging emag or Brad in the mud, I'm just posting the truth. If you don't like the truth don't read it. I'm not selling anything, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't have a glossy brochure and I not making false claims.
 
I will say this one more time: If you are happy with your pmags, great. Blue Skies...

Yes, you say that now...

...but you opened the door with:

" Hummm, my guess is that it doesn't work. I heard a rumor that Tom is no longer at emag, he has moved on to other ventures. Since Tom was the brains of emag it might be the 6 cylinder version wasn't finished and may never be. There are much better EI's out there than emag, I don't know why people are waiting for this system.. Maybe another 1000 units will fail before the bugs are worked out. Time will tell."

The above sounds like you have something of substance to share. Do you?

Tell us more about the 5 Knot difference in top speed you mentioned earlier. Was it a 170 knot RV, or a Cub clone?

C'mon buddy, you seem to be the guy with the info, we're just the suckers on the waiting list.
 
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I'm late to the discussion and was surprised at the high energy level. I too have been on Brad's list for a six cylinder pMag, but do have ~450 hours of operation with the four cylinder version on an RV-8A.

Some thoughts:
- As FasGas says, pMag is does not have the highest spark energy or duration of the various options out there. The issue to look at is "how much is enough". In other words would doubling spark energy and duration provide any benefit or is the pMag design representative of "more just provides diminishing returns".
- I have 350 hours flying the same airplane with dual Lightspeed Plasma II+ and can report three hard failures and many more problems directly related to either the design or quality control. I can also report that Klaus' service after the sale is the worst of all vendors I have worked with. I purchased the dual pMags as replacement for the Lightspeed ignitions and they have been flawless for all 450 hours.
- I have heard of first generation eMag problems (113 series) but do not have first hand knowledge.
- The pMags performance has been as advertised. Start up is a blade or two, the ~$1.60 each spark plugs are always clean when pulled for conditional inspection, and for those running LOP and have taken the time to balance the injectors you will find the engine is smooth as you lean - all the way to engine shutdown.
- Performance wise I would like to see the data that Fasgas has that shows the pMags lost 5 knots over magnetos.

My experience with Lightspeed has also led me to not consider the other current six cylinder EI options as the various modules, coils, triggers and connecting cables impress me as less than optimal. Is someone else comes up with an EI that provides what pMag does I'll reconsider.

Carl
 
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